Why Should I Feel in Debt to Jesus?

Being indebted to yourself is where Karma takes place…

‘right’ defined by who? If god existed, I couldn’t stop him from doing any of these things - but I could point out that doing them is incredibly evil by any reasonable moral standard.

God deserves every right as God. But he does not cling to his rights as God. How else can you define right? Sorry, what incredibly evil thing are you referring to?

Let me know when that one stands up in court. Yes, your honor, I did kill that family, but my judgement is so far superior to yours that your puny mind couldn’t even comprehend why it was a good thing.

Are you disagreeing to the premise that if God existed he would possess superior judgment? And why must it be case that if a family is wiped out the response is obviously “no, no, don’t look at the criminal, it’s not his fault, God made him so it’s God’s fault”? hmm… actually, let me know when THAT one stands up in court!

ok, what part of omnipotence is not clear? the devil did all these things, but God supposedly created the devil knowing what the devil was going to do… God bears responsibility for creating something that he knew was going to turn evil (which also means that God created evil…)

Saying something like “God created evil seen as God created the devil”.

is like saying “his mother made him kill his wife seen as he was born from his mother”. The mother is not at fault.

Another part of your arguument is something along the lines of “God created the devil knowing the devil was going to rebel against him”.

Well, yes, that is what logically follows from the premise that God is all-knowing. But should God create only beings that will favor his way, all the way, and nothing but his way. Maybe God should have programmed the devil like that. Okay, but isn’t that what we do to computers (program them to do whatever we want)? If God created something like that, or if God created us like that, would there be any real meaning in our responses? If we were programmed (with no sense of independence of mind) we wouldn’t even have an opinion on the matter. How lame is that?

And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

2kings2:23-24

God kills 70,000 of his followers for following their king(David) - supposedly hand chosen by god. How were they to know any better than what they were being told by their king?

1 Chronicles 21:14-15

Job, a perfectly upright man, god supposedly loved so. God had Satan test him. Job’s life was destroyed. His possessions stolen, fire incinerates his livestock and servants, winds blow down his house with his sons in it, crushing them to death, he’s stricken with boils and sores on every inch of his body, ect. God was just testing him though, though I see it as being taken too far. True, Job had his belongings restored and had many more children. What about the ones who died? I hardly see that as just. It makes it seems as though if you’re too devout you’ll be punished as well.

Don’t forget all the genocides as well, rapes, murders.

Too good you’re tested unmercifully, a little wild, your punished unmercifully. I’m beginning to see how man was made in his image, lol. Not the god I’ld want to worshop. Nor do I see fit to call him all loving(the bible even has a quite that says he hates) or merciful.

Think again sweety. I find it irresponsible not to step up and bare your own burden. I’m not rebellious, but I will admit I am bullheaded and blinded by pride. My pride is what would keep me from saying yes. Though I honestly would rather bare my own burdens rather than burden someone else with it.

Any of the many genocides that he committed or ordered to be committed in the old testament, for example. Killing every firstborn child in Egypt, to name but one example.

Well then we shall use that one example: let’s look at the story in context: the Israelites were oppressed as slaves by the Egyptians. Pharaoh ordered all his people to throw every Israelite baby boy into the Nile. The Egyptians used the Israelites ruthlessly for years. God spoke to Moses – a survivor of Pharaohs’ infanticide (killing every Israelite boy that was born) – saying “I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt…I have come to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of the land”. So God sent Moses to the king of Egypt. Moses said to Pharaoh “Let us go” but Pharaoh instead increased the labor of the Israelites. Moses said to God, “ever since I went to pharaoh to speak in your name, he has brought trouble upon this people, and you have not rescued your people at all”. Then the Lord said to Moses, “Now you will see what I will do to pharaoh: because of my mighty hand he will let them go”. After nine different plagues brought by the hand of God (after which Pharaoh, each time, still refused to let the Israelites go), Moses said to pharaoh, “this what the Lord says, ‘Israel is my firstborn son, and I told you, “Let my son go” but you refused to let him go, so I will kill your firstborn son’” God promised deliverance to Israel, his firstborn son…the king of Egypt would not let them go unless a mighty hand compelled him. “So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians, after that he will let you go”. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God (Rom11:22).

Not necessarily. I’m simply pointing out that it’s not a reasonable justification for patently immoral actions. You’re basically claiming that the end justifies the means, and if that were the case, I should be able to get away with anything if I could show some net good came of it. Worse, it appears that when it comes to God the last part doesn’t even apply!

When I say “if”, i’m urging you to think hypothetically, so when I said “IF God exists”, i’m expecting you to imagine that (God exists) as an end to begin with…so then based on supposing that end (God exists), decide whether you agree or disagree with the following: there is a superior judgement. If I speak hypothetically, you literally have no grounds for accusing me of attempting to claim that the end justifies the means.

Like most christians, I presume you regard god as ‘good’ and ‘kind’ and so forth. How can that be the case if it’s impossible for us to judge his actions?

Well, the christian’s premise is that God is perfect, and therefore has pure goodness as moral perfection. This is not the case because christians can judge God’s actions; this is what christians uphold because of what God has revealed to them about himself. This revelation like I have mentioned before is firstly, through creation (general revelation), secondly, through the bible and through the experience of Jesus as the living God (specific revelation). And this revelation is a seed of truth which may or may not be nurtured by faith – the only thing that pleases God.

Perhaps he’s really malign, and all of the seemingly good actions attributed to him are actually in the service of an evil aim that we’re too dull to apprehend. How would you tell the difference?

This sounds like the “deceiving demon argument”. A response to this may be one argument Descartes presents concerning the existence of God:

1. Something cannot come from nothing.
2. The cause of an idea must have at least as much formal reality as the idea has objective reality.
3. I have in me an idea of God. This idea has infinite objective reality.
4. I cannot be the cause of this idea, since I am not an infinite and perfect being. I don’t have enough formal reality. Only an infinite and perfect being could cause such an idea.
5. So God — a being with infinite formal reality — must exist (and be the source of my idea of God).
6. An absolutely perfect being is a good, benevolent being.
7. So God is benevolent.
8. So God would not deceive me and would not permit me to error without giving me a way to correct my errors.

Two huge problems with that analogy: A mother has no control over what child she will have - God, in contrast, is supposed to have voluntarially created the devil with the exact attributes he has. Further, a mother is not omniscient, with perfect knowledge of what her child will grow up and do - whilst the christian god is reported to be omniscient.

God did not create evil in Lucifer but by giving him freewill (a vital component of angel and human dignity) he allowed the possibility of evil. Besides that, my analogy was not intended to represent God’s omniscience but was intended simply to represent the principle that God created him but didn’t tell him or force him to do the things he chose to do.

Your final response is basically we need evil for life to be meaningful. @I didn’t say we need evil for life to be meaningful, I said we need freewill for life to be meaningful

I suggest you tell that to a child who is starving to death because of political corruption, or a girl who was violated by one of the bands of mercenaries that pass through her region on a regular basis. I’m sure they’ll appreciate that their suffering is necessary for you to have a nice life.

So the question that pretty much haunts you is: “If this so called omnibenevolent God exists, wouldn’t he prevent any unnecessary evil?

The definition of God being omnibenevolent can be said to have derived from the judeo-christian definition of God’s character. If the bible speaks of a perfect and good God then how does the bible define and explain evil? If we want to interpret judeo-christian belief accurately, shouldn’t we examine what the bible says about God and the situation of the world? The Bible maintains that:

• God is omnibebevolent and also maintains that evil is real.
• sin and death entered the world as humanity turned aside from God (meaning sin had its affect on everything and everyone irrespective of persons).
• the price of sin is death
• Seen as “all have turned aside” (psalm14:3) everyone has this unfortunate dept and is in need of salvation.
• If this is true of the human condition, then the idea of unnecessary evil false despite the suffering of a bewildered child. In other words: if fallen humanity is ultimately and eternally damned (apart from the grace and mercy of God) then experiencing the ramifications of evil while in the world may be understood as justly permitted.
• There is, however, a plan of God which involves the final restoration of creation.

The suffering child should cause you not to solely focus on the raised question of whether God is taking affirmative action or not, but also to see the seriousness of evil and gain an awareness of the depraved state of humanity – all the more reason to hope in a benevolent God rather than reject his provisions. As stated earlier that the price of sin is death, the bible goes on to say “…but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ…”(Rom 6:23) Proverbs 14:32b says, “even in death the righteous have a refuge”. This highlights the importance of realizing that death is not the end, especially for the victimized child. God will have the final say. Matthew 10:23-31 records something important Jesus said to his disciples: “Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell. What is the price of two sparrows—one copper coin? But not a single sparrow can fall to the ground without your Father knowing it. And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows.”

limit the esay questions please haha… I need to take a break!

Sorry but I have to cheat this time. I’ve already spent quite a while on this funadvice thing so I searched ChristianAnswers.net to get some info. None of it is in my words. This is what I found:

Why did God harden Pharaoh’s heart? The best, most direct, simple answer to the question above is: “In order to demonstrate His power, and in order that His name might be proclaimed throughout the entire earth.” The reason that is the best, most direct, simple answer to the question is because it is God’s own answer. See Exodus 9:16 and Romans 9:17. God raised up Pharaoh and hardened Pharaoh’s heart in order to promote His own glory. “But,” you may say, “that doesn’t sound right to me. It just doesn’t seem to me that God would arrange for a person to actually sin and rebel just to make Himself great.” At which point I would ask, “How do you propose that we determine the truth about what motivates the heart of God? Will we base our conclusions on our own feelings about what seems right? Or will we base our conclusions on what God Himself says in the Bible to be true about what motivates Him?” Many wise and reputable commentators propose that when the Bible says that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, what it really means is that God simply facilitated a process that Pharaoh himself initiated. After all, the Bible repeatedly also states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, I.e. Exodus 8:15 and 32. Dr. Norman Geisler, for instance, a scholar whose work we regard highly and frequently cite in this publication, holds that God did not directly harden Pharaoh’s heart (or anyone else’s heart for that matter) contrary to their own free choice, but only indirectly, through their own choice. In their excellent book When Critics Ask (©1992 Victor Books), Geisler and Howe say, “God in His omniscience foreknew exactly how Pharaoh would respond, and He used it to accomplish His purposes. God ordained the means of Pharaoh’s free but stubborn action…” And that’s the position of many other respected commentators. But not all. There are those who believe that the simplest and most accurate reading of Exodus chapters 4-9, and the corresponding text in Romans 9:17ff, rather indicates that it was God Himself and none other who was the primary, initiating, direct, and driving force behind Pharaoh’s choice to harden his heart. Romans 9 is perhaps the most difficult chapter in the Bible to read, accurately understand, and fully accept, because what Romans 9 teaches flies in the face of our human inclination to be independent, self-determining, and proud. Romans 9 indicates that it is God, not us—not me—who is in control. In fact, it shows that God is in such total control that He can and does sovereignly elect to show mercy to some people while hardening the hearts of others. And it shows that He is just in doing so. And it shows that I am in no position to challenge Him on the matter (Romans 9:20-21). And it shows that I am also still fully responsible for all of my actions and accountable for all of my choices. Am I then saying that God Himself actually arranged for Pharaoh to sin? Yes, in much the same sense that He arranged for Joseph’s brothers to sell Joseph into slavery (Genesis 50:20), Satan to attack Job (Job 1:12), Jews and and Romans to crucify Jesus (Acts 2:23), and sin to exist in the first place. Well, if that’s true, how can we explain what seems like a contradiction—that God wills sin which is, by definition, against His will. Theologians have often handled this paradox by concluding that there are two wills in God, sometimes referred to as God’s sovereign will and His revealed (perceptive) will, or His will of command and His will of decree. And also by understanding that in God’s view and plan, it is good that there is evil in this world. Note—that is not to say that evil is itself good; only that evil serves a worthy end and is therefore an important and integral part of God’s good purposes. But isn’t God compassionate toward all men—even sinners? And if so, how could He harden Pharaoh’s heart while simultaneously loving him and feeling compassion for him? Dr. John Piper addresses this as follows: “There is a genuine inclination in God’s heart to spare those who have committed treason against his kingdom. But his motivation is complex, and not every true element in it rises to the level of effective choice. In his great and mysterious heart there are kinds of longings and desires that are real… Yet not all of these longings govern God’s actions. He is governed by the depth of his wisdom expressed through a plan that no ordinary human deliberation would ever conceive (Romans 11:33-36; 1 Corinthians 2:9). There are holy and just reasons for why the affections of God’s heart have the nature and intensity and proportion that they do.” Author: Daryl E. Witmer of AIIA Institute.

A few reasons why I think God may justly take away anyone’s life he chooses to:

• ultimately, everything belongs to him…essentially, the life I have is not really mine,.. he created me…he put life in me in the first place and he can take it away whenever he wants “the lord gave and the lord has taken away. Praise be to the name of the Lord”;
• due to God’s standard of holiness, he sees that no one is without sin and his justice requires a penalty for sin (death).To God, sin is sin. Sin (regardless of what degree) corrupts everything and is detestable in the eyes of a perfect God and so the penalty must also be extreme. Seen as no one is without sin, God should not be considered unjust no matter whom he allows dies. However, God does judge fairly when we stand before him on judgment day,.. those who were faithful to God receive degrees of reward according to what they’ve done on earth while those who did not ask for forgiveness and turn from sin receive degrees of punishment according to their deeds. This leads me to the next reason…
• every person should devote primary concern toward their soul which will live on after physical death,.. If God allows ‘good’ people to die, that is not the end. From God, they will receive in the next life whatever they deserve according to their deeds on earth.
  “But what about babies?” you ask. Christ said that their’s is the kingdom of heaven. “Well what about people who are genuinely good people but have never heard the gospel of Jesus?” God weighs the motives of the heart. God judges them according to the light (revelation or knowledge) they’ve received.

Just addressing this one point, because I really, really want to see how you justify unnecessary and unjust slaughter:

God promised deliverance to Israel, his firstborn son…the king of Egypt would not let them go unless a mighty hand compelled him. “So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians, after that he will let you go”. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God (Rom11:22).

How is it kind to exterminate the children of the subjects of an intransigent leader? The children had nothing to do with the Pharaoh’s refusal.

You also seem to be forgetting this bit: Exodus 4:21: And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Get that? Your god deliberately “hardened the heart” of the Pharaoh to make sure that he wouldn’t release the israelites until god was done with his plagues and slaughtering.

beat me to it arachid

but also, with the doctor case, he WOULD expect you to pay him, it’s his job, it’s how he makes money. And if you didn’t want ot be saved, you could always choose to kill yourself afterwards, it’s that simple, and should not be compare with the situation at hand.

~~’s say you stole one million dollars from a bank (not that you would), and the court gave you a fine double of that and you are worried you will not be able to pay it; you know you cannot carry that burden. But a man walks up, a rich man in your family, that loves you very much, and lays down two million dollars in front of you. God would not call that nonsense, he would call that compassion. It would not go against justice, for the price would have been paid~~ I would not take it. What part of, I bare responsibility for my actions. You reap what you sow, I sowed a bad seed and it came back to bite me in the @$$ so my penance would be sitting in jail and doing whatever you do in jail until my time is up. It’s not too much for me to bear. Again, another situation and should not be compared with the situations at hand.

As for evil is all in a person’s perspective. God created Satan, he created man, he created everything in existence, thus the responsibility of sin fall on his shoulders.

God made us the way he did, I’m sure there’s something he could of done differently, without effecting free will, that would change that. He’s God after all. The question is, wh didn’t he?

So basically, your argument sums down to “God doesn’t have to be good, because he’s such an amazingly powerful guy. And besides, he owns you. Also, despite engaging in and actively encouraging the slaughter of millions of innocents throughout the ages, something as trivial as lying to your parents is enough to justify being raped to death by invading troops that he sent.”

Is that about the shape of it? Because even if I thought this god existed, I wouldn’t want to worship any being with so little in the way of morals and compassion.

The best, most direct, simple answer to the question above is: “In order to demonstrate His power, and in order that His name might be proclaimed throughout the entire earth.”

And you agree that a “demonstration of power” (something that is surprisingly, totally lacking these days) is more important than the lives of thousands of innocents? And you call this god good, just, and kind?

No, god tells Moses that he will “harden the pharaoh’s heart” right from the outset. And does it really matter when it’s done? The description is pretty clear - the pharaoh would have let the Israelites go on several occasions, if not for god making him change his mind.

He hardened his heart after pharoh hardened his heart do many times. He knew he would keep on doing it, so he made it work better for him. (sorry, gone for four days with not much internet)

Are you 100% sure that you are 100% right about God? Think hypothetically for a moment… Does God, if he exists, not have the right to do things whatever way he wants, and reveal (according to his own plans) whatever knowledge he wants, and decide how he involves himself with his creation?

Isa 55:8-9, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

Whatever methods he uses is his choice and are we in a position to discredit those ways as if our judgment is equal or superior to God’s or as if our philosophies encompass his thoughts?

1 Corinthians 1:18,27, “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God…God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.”

*Well, there’s an argument for Christianity…

I can sin as much as I want to, and I’ll still go to heaven, because Jesus took it upon himself to die for me and my sins…

Does this sound flawed to anyone else?*

No, you cannot, it does not work that way. Everyone thinks it does but it does not. I still believe that I will give an account of what I did in my life. Sin will only weigh that account down.

What about the people that lived far before Jesus? Or did they just go to hell?

We also believe that The people back then looked forward to Jesus just as we look back to Jesus. Yes, they had to sacrifice animals and somtimes humans. And most of the humans that were sacrificed were from war or wrong doing. I can think of one that was not and even then, God did not tell him to sacrifice her; he picked to. Now that Jesus came as the SINLESS God (in form of a human), as a perfect sacrifice, we can lay our budens on him. If you want to try the other way, fine, but I really believe you will not be able to.

I see it a being irresponsible pawing off your sins to another, and it could also be called lazy.

It’s not lazy if you believe what we believe. We believe he created us and that trying to carry our own sins would be to hard for us. He wants to give us rest from trying to bear our sin, as most of us have tried.

The holy bible was written by men, and have you read it, cover to cover? It’s more like a dogmatic, blood infested manuscript written by dogmatic bloody bigots.

again, evil is just a view point, just as good good and evil is all in the mind. For instance, a cereal killer people think he’s evil, to him, he’s making a perfect world by killing off people that too him do not fit in his perfect world, so he’s good killing the evil. Or if a friend of mine were to be killed, I would kill them, killing being sinful, but I would see it as just taking the life of the person who took the life of my friend. Are you grasping this? Neither truly exist, thus we truly need neither to have free will.

In the long run, what would you call it? He made man curious, he made the apple tree with in their grasp, hell, he made the apple tree, the forbidden fruit- he didn’t have too at all. He made Satan knowing he was going to rebel. So in the long run, yes he is responsible. And why did he have to sacrifice his son? He’s god, right. He could of made another rule to pass to absolve sin. Hell, he didn’t have to make sin at all. Again, before you say Satan did God made Satan He’s supposed to be all knowing, it says so in the bible Knowing that Satan and man are going to do this hence responsibility is soul placed on him, the all mighty creator of everything. Read this over as many times as you need to before it sinks in of what I am saying.

perhaps then ypu’ll realize why I don’t believe in the bible, which is man made.

ok, what part of omnipotence is not clear? the devil did all these things, but God supposedly created the devil knowing what the devil was going to do… God bears responsibility for creating something that he knew was going to turn evil (which also means that God created evil…)

Does God, if he exists, not have the right to do things whatever way he wants

‘right’ defined by who? If god existed, I couldn’t stop him from doing any of these things - but I could point out that doing them is incredibly evil by any reasonable moral standard.

Whatever methods he uses is his choice and are we in a position to discredit those ways as if our judgment is equal or superior to God’s or as if our philosophies encompass his thoughts?

Let me know when that one stands up in court. “Yes, your honor, I did kill that family, but my judgement is so far superior to yours that your puny mind couldn’t even comprehend why it was a good thing”.

Yes it does. There has to be a side of good and evil to be able to hae a free will. Without that evil side, all they would be exposed to would be good, so they wpould not have a chance to decide between good and evil.

Still nonsense. Are you saying it was physically impossible for Eve to eat an apple before the serpent came along?

He did not trick them into it, the devil did and they followed. He did not want to punish them/us, so he sent his son to die for us.

But being omnipotent, he knew exactly what choices everyone would make, right? Which means the choice to eat the apple was inevitable from the moment he set everything up - which makes him a great big hypocrite for punishing humans for something they really had no practical choice about.

And if he doesn’t want to punish us, why does hell (supposedly) exist?

~~He paid the Fathers price, for our return~~ The bible says itself The father shall not pay for the son the son shall not pay for the father wouldn’t that be a copndtradction

In fact, Jesus did exist… ask any historian scholar,.. Anyway,.. If you were in the hospital in an emergency room unconscious and bleeding to death, the doctor wouldn’t wait and hope that you wake up so that he could ask you if you wanted to be saved. The doctor wouldn’t pause and contemplate if you will in the future feel in dept to him or not…
To understand why some people feel in debt to Jesus, it’s important to first understand the seriousness of sin and evil in the world in contrast to the righteousness of God and heaven, the perfect place. Everyone has sinned and everyone (no matter how good they are) falls short of the glory of God. Because of sin’s corruptible nature, no one is perfect… and because no one has perfect righteousness, no one can enter a perfect place like heaven… in fact, because God’s standard of righteousness is so far beyond the righteousness we can ever achieve, this is the very reason why we cannot earn salvation through our own good works… what a bad state we are in! If no one can enjoy eternal life then what hope do we have? God would have to intervene. (Romans 6:23) “For the price of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus” Even though God knew we would not have fully understood His heart, that still did not stop Him from taking our place on the cross… It’s not about whether you feel in debt to Him or not… God doesn’t want from you, He wants for you…

I didn’t get to read all the replies, since my time is limited, however, I would like to add that the bible says to “Owe no man anything, except to love.”

Jesus does not expect you to “pay him back, in fact, there is no possible way to do this. He paid the Fathers price, for our return…if … we so choose.

He does not force anyone to do anything. In fact, if you are doing because you have to, all it will do is spawn resentment. This is not what he is about.

If you don’t believe there is a devil, just try to live for Jesus.

First, that doesn’t make any sense: Just because there isn’t someone tempting me to do something I shouldn’t doesn’t mean I don’t have free will.

Yes it does. There has to be a side of good and evil to be able to hae a free will. Without that evil side, all they would be exposed to would be good, so they wpould not have a chance to decide between good and evil.

Second, if God is omnipotent, he already knew before he set the whole thing up what choice Adam and Eve would make - so isn’t it a little cruel to punish them (and all their descendents!) for something he tricked them into?

He did not trick them into it, the devil did and they followed. He did not want to punish them/us, so he sent his son to die for us.

To the ones who think you can come to Jesus, and “sin… all you want to, are not understanding the bible or salvation, at all.

Because the Holy Bible states to!,just like everything else you’ve learned through the years to survive;why did you learn Math,English,History;etc.,it’s part of life,and it’s a better way of living aswell,it keeps you out of trouble.as time goes by,you will see what I mean.Good luck.

Every time this issue comes up, the SAME series of questions are asked, and the SAME excuses are made, usually ending with some derivative of: ‘’You just don’t understand because you don’t believe.’’

…such an overused cop-out…

Of course he knew the devil would sin, but without two sides for the first peope to pick from there would have not been free will.

First, that doesn’t make any sense: Just because there isn’t someone tempting me to do something I shouldn’t doesn’t mean I don’t have free will.

Second, if God is omnipotent, he already knew before he set the whole thing up what choice Adam and Eve would make - so isn’t it a little cruel to punish them (and all their descendents!) for something he tricked them into?

beat me to it again arachnid I need to get my @$$ in gear

And though it would be the hard way out, it was still a way out, I still beard responsibility. Just taking the money doesn’t show any sign of responsibility.

And who created the devil, and was omniscient, so knew exactly what happened? You can’t be the creator of everything, with foreknowledge of what will happen, and not bear responsibility for the consequences of your actions.

Of course he knew the devil would sin, but without two sides for the first peope to pick from there would have not been free will.

I would not take it. What part of, I bare responsibility for my actions. You reap what you sow, I sowed a bad seed and it came back to bite me in the @$$ so my penance would be sitting in jail and doing whatever you do in jail until my time is up. It’s not too much for me to bear. Again, another situation and should not be compared with the situations at hand.

Yes, you might take the hard way and not get out of jail, but me, I would surely take the 2 million $ and try to, afterward pay him in whatever way possible. I would do almost anything for him. Same thing with God. He paid my way out with Jesus blood; some people are going to try the hard way. I’ll take the easy path and serve him in whatever way possible.

Because your sin is way to much for you to bear. Yes jesus did do it out of compassion and love. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. I dont think God ment for us to feel in debt but to realize that we are sinners and someone is there to take our sins for us.

Well, there’s an argument for Christianity…

I can sin as much as I want to, and I’ll still go to heaven, because Jesus took it upon himself to die for me and my sins…

Does this sound flawed to anyone else?

Also, why did he arbitrarily pick that day to die, what about all those people before then, apparently they bore their sins pretty well…

I agree entirely. I’d rather live in a world where my deeds mattered than one where my allegiance to some higher being was all that counted in life.

Islam teaches that each person is born in a state of spiritual purity, but upbringing and world pleasures may corrupt us. Each person will bear responsibility for his or her actions. (.. man can have nothing but what he strives for) quran(53,38-39) (who receives guidance, receives it for his own benefit : who goes astray does so to his own loss : no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another ..) quran(17,15) The concept of original sin doesn’t exist in Islam, sins are not inherited and not even Adam and Eve will be punished for their sins, for God has forgiven them.

An even better question is if god is all powerful why did his son have to be killed for him to forgive our sins and allow us into heaven, could he not have done that any ways?

God is rightous and because of it he can not look upon sin. Because of that we needed a sacrifice for our sin, so he could save us.

God created something that he couldnt do? This is the old argument of can God create a rock too heavy for him to pick up… If he cant create the rock, that means God isnt all powerful, and if he can create it, but then cannot pick it up, then he cant be all powerful…

Also, why did God create people and angels in the first place knowing they were going to sin, and knowing he wouldnt be able to look upon his own creations (again, which doesnt make him all powerful).

~~ Because your sin is way to much for you to bear~~ as ty stated(beat me to it ;p lol) What about the people that lived far before Jesus? Or did they just go to hell? If so, perhaps the question is why didn’t he come sooner? And who says it’s too much for me to bear, you? Sorry, but you’re human as am I, and you don’t even know me. Jesus bared his sin and the sins of others. I should be able to bare at least my own. Perhaps I’ll stay a virgin my whole life, who knows. I never asked anyone to absolve my sin for me. I see it a being irresponsible pawing off your sins to another, and it could also be called lazy. Laziness is a part of sloth, and sloth is sin!

Humanity IS flawed, yes. But without flaws there would be no room for improvement! Thus, humanity must be flawed so there can be room for improvement. Perfection is a man made illusion.

* Again, I never asked anyone to die for my sins

Well, the idea that someone innocent can die, and that somehow absolves your crimes, is not only nonsense, but antithetical to the concept of justice. If God were just, he would neither demand the sacrifice of an innocent (to include himself), nor accept it.

Sorry, what incredibly evil thing are you referring to?

Any of the many genocides that he committed or ordered to be committed in the old testament, for example. Killing every firstborn child in Egypt, to name but one example.

Are you disagreeing to the premise that if God existed he would possess superior judgment?

Not necessarily. I’m simply pointing out that it’s not a reasonable justification for patently immoral actions. You’re basically claiming that the end justifies the means, and if that were the case, I should be able to get away with anything if I could show some net good came of it. Worse, it appears that when it comes to God the last part doesn’t even apply!

Like most christians, I presume you regard god as ‘good’ and ‘kind’ and so forth. How can that be the case if it’s impossible for us to judge his actions? Perhaps he’s really malign, and all of the seemingly good actions attributed to him are actually in the service of an evil aim that we’re too dull to apprehend. How would you tell the difference?

Saying something like “God created evil seen as God created the devil”. is like saying “his mother made him kill his wife seen as he was born from his mother”. The mother is not at fault.

Two huge problems with that analogy: A mother has no control over what child she will have - God, in contrast, is supposed to have voluntarially created the devil with the exact attributes he has. Further, a mother is not omniscient, with perfect knowledge of what her child will grow up and do - whilst the christian god is reported to be omniscient.

Your final response is basically “we need evil for life to be meaningful”. I suggest you tell that to a child who is starving to death because of political corruption, or a girl who was violated by one of the bands of mercenaries that pass through her region on a regular basis. I’m sure they’ll appreciate that their suffering is necessary for you to have a nice life.

*God created something that he couldnt do? This is the old argument of can God create a rock too heavy for him to pick up… If he cant create the rock, that means God isnt all powerful, and if he can create it, but then cannot pick it up, then he cant be all powerful…

Also, why did God create people and angels in the first place knowing they were going to sin, and knowing he wouldnt be able to look upon his own creations (again, which doesnt make him all powerful).*

God did not create sin; the devil did when he sinned. God made people so he had someone to have a realationship with. He gave people a free will to do wrong and right, because he could not have a realationship with a “robot” that did everything he said without a choice.

Well, the idea that someone innocent can die, and that somehow absolves your crimes, is not only nonsense, but antithetical to the concept of justice.

In God’s book it’s not.

Let’s say you stole one million dollars from a bank (not that you would), and the court gave you a fine double of that and you are worried you will not be able to pay it; you know you cannot carry that burden. But a man walks up, a rich man in your family, that loves you very much, and lays down two million dollars in front of you. God would not call that nonsense, he would call that compasion. It would not go against justice, for the price would have been paid.

God did not create sin; the devil did when he sinned.

And who created the devil, and was omniscient, so knew exactly what happened? You can’t be the creator of everything, with foreknowledge of what will happen, and not bear responsibility for the consequences of your actions.

The doctor wouldn’t pause and contemplate if you will in the future feel in dept to him or not…

He also wouldn’t torture me for all eternity if I didn’t thank him and pledge allegiance to him.