To those pro-lifers...is this justified?

—Is it really fair to that “child’ to bring it into a world where they are totally unlike other kids their age?—

Lol. The same argument was made by myself towards myself a few years ago. But I wouldn’t be here to stand up for those who can’t.

How do we know that they wouldn’t have survived out of the womb? Anything that the doctor tells you is an estimation. I’m willing to bet that if you have a little faith and put a lot of work into it, many of those children had a chance.

Then you go on to the quality of life thing. I think that all creatures want to live. We all have natural instincts that do their best to ensure this. I find any parent that isn’t willing to care for their offspring, no matter the circumstances, a very sad and somewhat loathsome person.

Pro-life = do not kill Killing Dr,’s who do abortions = ok? The pro-life way of thinking–does anyone else find this thinking off base? As Filet said, these weren’t the run-of-the-mill abortions that Hivetyrant keeps referring to in his posts. Hive, these were “children” who were not able to survive outside the womb (essentially, their “life” would have been completely controlled by other than that being), or severely DD–living in a world with no real quality of life at all, totally dependent to think, feed, and take care of them. Is it really fair to that “child’ to bring it into a world where they are totally unlike other kids their age? Where they live according to how others feel–when to eat, when to bathe, etc. No free will.

I am pro-choice, although I do not condone abortion as a form of birth control, and I stand by my choice. I do find it interesting though, that you never seem to hear about a pro-life proponent being killed by someone who is pro-choice.

lol, well again, you are wrong. The questions I asked, I have asked before. Basically the same, but not cut and pasted…and only the last part of them refer to babies from another country. A valid question but I guess life there is not valid enough for you. Okay, forget that part because clearly the babies in another country matter not… What are you doing to help the babies that you insist be born to American mothers (lol, cause they are the only babies that matter)? The little red, white and blue babies… DO you support easier adoption laws? Do you support better education and free childcare? Do you support free healthcare for children? Do you support sex education that includes birth control in schools?

I support all that and more because I don’t think that abortion is a good option or that it should ever be used for birth control. But I am smart enough to realize that if I don’t think abortion is good, I have to be part of the solution… Not just sit back on my red, white and blue butt and condemn these children to a life that usually includes poverty, lack of education and quite possibly abuse…

DO you support easier adoption laws? Hell yes. If it were up to me, it would take AT MOST 6 months, in general around 2 or 3. Do you support better education and free childcare? Depends on what your idea of either of those are.
Do you support free healthcare for children? Of course. Always have, and probably will until something is done about the Medical Industrial Complex. Do you support sex education that includes birth control in schools? I support better sex education. While it should remain with abstinence in mind(if not empasized more), preteenagers and teenagers should be made aware of the contraceptive methods available to them. While screwing around at that age will mess you up, ending up pregnant or with child support will mess you up more. They should also be made aware of the failure rates of these methods, and shown EXAMPLES of what happens when they fail. But all in all, no, I don’t want schools handing out birth control pills to what may someday be my 12 year old daughter or niece. That is the combined responsibility of her and the parents, and no one has any right to interfere with that responsibility unless there is abuse involved(which I really can not see how).

No, all pro-life supporters will not be lumped together as being murderers… lol, nirvana..is this you, a 13 year old girl or your 47 year old daddy?

As someone opposed to pro-choice, I must ask. What, besides stating that you are against pro-choice, do you do to help the babies that you insist must be born. Do you contact your congress and tell them you want free healthcare for children, do you work to make adoption easier, do you offer to purchase clothes for the life of the child, or pay for it’s education? Or do you just say…abortion is wrong, and let it go at that…leaving the care of those babies that you insist must be born to be someone elses problem.

Is it just american babies dying that concerns you or do you send money to third world nations to supply clean water so that thousands of non-american babies don’t die from easy to cure diseases…

hivetyrant - please answer this… As someone opposed to pro-choice, I must ask. What, besides stating that you are against pro-choice, do you do to help the babies that you insist must be born. Do you contact your congress and tell them you want free healthcare for children, do you work to make adoption easier, do you offer to purchase clothes for the life of the child, or pay for it’s education? Or do you just say…abortion is wrong, and let it go at that…leaving the care of those babies that you insist must be born to be someone elses problem.

Is it just american babies dying that concerns you or do you send money to third world nations to supply clean water so that thousands of non-american babies don’t die from easy to cure diseases…

Its so sad to see that my generation does not understand the concept of responsibility, or true freedom. What many want is anarchy, to avoid the consequences.

Freedom is being able to make decisions for yourself, yes. But it’s also taking responsibility for those actions. And the increasing levels of things like reckless drinking, drug and tobacco usage, and unprotected sex would indicate they understand this not. The dramatic abortions solidifies my opinion.

You had sex. Great. You got pregnant. About 99% of the time, it’s your own fault. If you don’t want to get pregnant, don’t have unprotected sex. Don’t go out and kill the next generation for your mistake. You were responsible enough to use your freedom to do this act, now should be responsible enough to face the consequences head on. Yes, I do contact legislative bodies to ensure children get the vital care that they need, especially at an early age. However, I personally can not fund every child in the US, though technically speaking, I already am somewhat through the various federal taxes. However, what I cannot do is condone the murder of what may one day be a niece, a student, a friend of my child’s, and then sit by and watch as it happens. In my eyes, such apathy is as bad as watching a man or woman get beat to death by a thug and not doing a thing about it.

And why are you asking for US to look at “bi-partisan” sources when you yourselves don’t do it?

We’re basically explaining them the rudimentary of the human reproductive system, then saying, “Don’t have sex.” Now, this is as bad as telling someone, “Just because.” In fact, it’s the same thing. We need to explain WHY they shouldn’t have sex with prejudice, and show them enough of the resulting garbage to drill it into their “all-knowing” heads so that they won’t.

“abstinence in mind(if not empasized more)”
More? My gosh man, that is all that has been taught for the last eight years…

Well great…until those things are reality…then the window should not be closed…

What people don’t seem to realize is that the radical edge of the “pro-life” movement is no less radical or terrorist than the Taliban or Al Qaeda. They have their religious beliefs that they feel compelled to force upon everyone else by force and violence if necessary.

lex_icon: Are you “anti late-term” abortion when the pregnancy threatens the life, health, or future fertility of the mother? when the child is brain dead or has a condition incompatable with life? These are the kinds of abortions Dr. Tiller performed. For this he was assassinated.

tseirpeht - my lord you are amazing. NO ONE compared you to a terrorist.!!! *By the way that is brilliant, comparing me to people that want to strap bombs to their chest and blow up market places. Your intolerance never ceases to amaze me.

Fillet said “What people don’t seem to realize is that the radical edge of the “pro-life” movement is no less radical or terrorist than the Taliban or Al Qaeda”

Are you saying that you are part of the RADICAL edge of pro-life? LOL, believe me, usless you are out there killing abortion drs. and bombing clinics, you are NOT.

You are just another armchair, fundamentalist christian who does not support pro-choice. Get over yourself. Read the answers and get a grip on reality. No one thinks you are capable of being on the RADICAL edge of anything.

you display the exact attitude that you accuse me of having…try actually comprehending the answers… I agree with teaching abstinence…along with a complete study of sex education… I was referring to the statement you made about teaching abstinence with MORE emphasis on abstinence… How could there be MORE emphasis on abstinence when that was the ONLY thing being taught…

Just an example how you take things out of context…

No, I don’t like the idea of telling kids how to have sex without encouraging abstinence. You know why? Because kids get curious, and that curiosity can lead them to do stupid things. You know how I know this? Because I was once one of them!

You just don’t like that because some of us aren’t afraid to say that people should respect their bodies and others’ to the most disciplined of extent.

“No one else is going to report. I am sorry but if other stations don’t report on it, then it does not mean that its not true. Maybe you should consider reading more then one side before you judge another side.”

You just said that they’re the only ones ‘reporting’ on it, but that I should “consider reading more than one side”. How does that work? And are you seriously suggesting that the practices as alleged on fox are occurring, but nobody reputable actually bothers to even mention it? I find that highly suspect, especially since what you - and they - are claiming is totally at odds with all other evidence.

“I am just saying compared to Al-Qaeda, anti abortionist are not equal. Sorry but you have no logic when you say that the few acts of violence on anti abortionist (murders/attacks) are exactly the same as what Al Qaeda have done.”

Where did anyone say that?

lex_icon, do you know how difficult it is to procure a late-term abortion? AFAIK there were 3 doctors in the entire country who offered this service. In Kansas where Dr. Tiller practiced it was necessary to have two different unaffiliated doctors determine that the procedure was medically necessary. Dr. Tiller was investigated multiple times and in every case he was found to be innocent and to have followed the law.

Nobody is using 3rd trimester abortions as a form of birth control. I will agree that like anyplace there are gray areas. Some could take one particular case and present it in a way where the decision to abort could sound egregious but when we take medical decisions out of the hands of doctors and let zealots decide we are going to have a lot worse decisions.

tseirpeht, it is true that the amount of violence against doctors who perform abortions is not as high as other groups. When you look at the information put out by Army of God it is hard to argue that their views are any less extreme than the Taliban. If people of this type had political power in the US our theocracy would be no less oppressive than that of Afganistan.

The mothers health that was in danger was from a psychological stand point. The mother was stressed. So Dr. Tiller would induce labor, pushed all of the body out except for the head, then jam sissors up the back of the neck and sucked out the brain. Look up Dr. Lile, he has a video on how its done.

No one else is going to report. I am sorry but if other stations don’t report on it, then it does not mean that its not true. Maybe you should consider reading more then one side before you judge another side. It is not my fault other news organizations support murder.

I am not saying it wasn’t an act of terrorism. I am just saying compared to Al-Qaeda, anti abortionist are not equal. Sorry but you have no logic when you say that the few acts of violence on anti abortionist (murders/attacks) are exactly the same as what Al Qaeda have done.

filletofspam: If it’s just a late term abortion for contraceptive reasons as opposed to a life-or-death situation (ie, threatens the life of the mother/child, child will not have a decent quality of life/die soon after birth etc) I would object.

By the way that is brilliant, comparing me to people that want to strap bombs to their chest and blow up market places. Your intolerance never ceases to amaze me.

Fox news? I think you missed the “non-partisan” bit.

“Regardless of wether or not he was refering to me you would compare someone who kills another in defense of the defensless to someone who will undescriminatingly kill as many people as he possibly can.”

Actually, the defining characteristic of terrorism is attempting to force people to change their behaviour by terrorizing them, usually by killing people. Both Al Quaeda and anyone that murders to promote their own ideology fit this criteria.

“The mothers health that was in danger was from a psychological stand point. The mother was stressed. So Dr. Tiller would induce labor, pushed all of the body out except for the head, then jam sissors up the back of the neck and sucked out the brain.”

Really. I’m sure you have some sort of reputable, non-partisan source you can point us to about this. Perhaps something by the late Dr himself?

I didn’t want to post on this but I would imagine that I should for the sake of letting things off my chest. Tiller was a wicked man, he allowed children to die who were almost completly born. He believes that if the child was born the psychological toll on the mother would be life threatening. I will say that I am happy that he will no longer practice abortion, I just wish that the circumstances were different. There is a side of me that wants to believe that justice was served, but I know that these feelings are wrong. The bible is against vigilante justice, so in my heart I am just as guilty as the killer. But in short I will say: I hate murder, but I hate abortion even more. No this is not justified by G-d, because he took the law into his own hands he will have to account for them to G-d.

The murder of another person is indefensible - and I would hope that anyone who isn’t a sociopath would see that, regardless of ideological viewpoint.

“How is the head being delivered alive going to effect the health of the mother? 2/3 of the body is already out, alive and kicking.”

Now you’re constructing a straw-man. I challenge you to show a single example of Dr Tiller - or anyone else practicing as a registered doctor - ‘aborting’ a 2/3rds born, healthy baby. In reality, and as filletofspam points out, the only late term abortions Dr Tiller performed were in cases where the child was not viable, or the mother’s health was in danger.

As someone who is pro choice (but I am very anti late-term termination), I still don’t think the man responsible for shooting Dr. Tiller had the right. I am of the mind that I don’t believe anyone has the right to decide whether a fully functioning human being deserves to die.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7bggxjwm54 This will answer all your questions about Dr. Tiller and the reasons for killing infants.

I have been called a rabid conservative from some on this website, also a terrorist according to the secretary of homeland security. Regardless of wether or not he was refering to me you would compare someone who kills another in defense of the defensless to someone who will undescriminatingly kill as many people as he possibly can. That would be like comparing OJ Simpson to Hitler.

I agree with Tseirpeht, I did not know the man, but, God does not justify murder, no matter who is being murdered. He tells us to love, the one who is doing the abuse, no matter how horrid and despiciple it may be, even the slaughter of innocent babies. Whoever the shooter may be, he/she is guilty of murder, even if he thinks he is doing God a favor, he is deluded. God help this lost world that we live in.

How is the head being delivered alive going to effect the health of the mother? 2/3 of the body is already out, alive and kicking.

you agree with him… the doctor… the man who shot him…or tseirpeht?

Agree w/ arachnid there–being a nurse I KNOW (reading from my nursing journals and med journals) of all the advances being made in diagnostic medicine. They can go inutero to correct things such as spina bifada and developments such as that. But even so, some things still can not be corrected. And if that should be the case then there should be no argument. Dr Tiller didn’t abort for the sake of aborting—it was only when deemed necessary to the mother or if that child would be born still-born or not able to function on its own outside the womb. Would I want this done for every parent who didn’t want to tend to a special needs child? Hell no! That’s not what it was for—and it should never be for that reason. I too feel that a parent- to-be who would abort just for that reason is horrible.
Medical necessity is exactly what it means.

You obviously didn’t read the entire thing, or most of your copy-and-pasted questions would be answered. Yes, that’s right, you copy and pasted. I’ve seen that particular set of paragraphs used at least once before.

My belief is that all living creatures have a spirit, and that all living creatures ave a purpose. I don’t think even most atheists disagree that we are at the top of the food chain, and in relative control of everything. If a woman is pregnant with child(until the zygote has connected with the uterus, I do not consider it a child. Don’t even go there), she has exercised her freedom to commit the act of mating with a male counterpart of the same species. If she were any other creature on Earth, she would go through the cycle of the pregnancy, she would care for the offspring until there are capable of fending for themselves, and then would go on with her own life until the next mating season. But because she is of the “most evolved” species, Homo Sapiens, and because she feels that she’s not emotionally, or financially ready, or simply because it’s not convenient for her, she apparently has the right to kill a member of the next generation. And then there are most likely going to be psychological scars after that, including a massive amount of guilt, a common side-effect. And I believe this is because instinctively, most mammalian species are very protective of their offspring. I certainly know most humans are. Imagine killing them. Even our most primal of instincts tell us its wrong.

Now, this is not to say that there are rare cases where the child is a danger to the mother. If the child has a significant chance of killing the mother, the option should be available to her. I don’t think that it should be available to every irresponsible and undisciplined high school and college age student in the country.

And an answer to your last question: I’m more worried about my own country, right now. These developing nations are going through hardship, but so has every nation on the face of the Earth. It’s a test to see if the government in place can direct the will of the people towards sustaining or progressive ends. Now, I’m not saying that we, as citizens of the most powerful nation on the face of the Earth, should completely ignore these problems, but we should be concerned in primary with ourselves. Yes, ourselves, since the individuals do SUCH a good job of that already. A blight which must be dealt with before this country can truly continue to progress, or even so much as maintain its current state.

So my money is going to protect me and my loved one’s domestic rights and correct domestic mistakes before dealing with those of other nations.

The only sort of abortion that I oppose is the kind I see, where a spoiled rotten rich girl gets pregnant and doesn’t want mommy and daddy to know about it. They could have easily used protection, yet they choose not to because abortion is an option.

I know a girl who’s had five abortions. I really think we need to have some sort of regulation against such insanity.

I fully support aborting mentally damaged babies who would never be able to live a normal life, anyway and I don’t see a problem with it when the mother’s life is in danger. It really bothers me when teenagers abort because they don’t want to deal with the consequences of their actions. Adoption is always an option in those cases.