What is your objection to the cosmological proof of the existence of God?

when i was 10 my dog ranaway and went through a forest i prayed for him to come back nd be safe right after i was dne praying a lady on the phone called my mom and said she found our dog running through a busy street i consider that proof and i when i mean right after i was done praying i mean like a second or 2 after

I am Christian but your logic doesn’t make sense, you say the universe had to have a beginning but if it didn’t nothing would exist but you say god has always existed so why can’t the universe?

Because we know it didnt. Its been proven. By the big bang or whatever. To many christians question his ways. We are not supposed to know. we wont figure it out. so have faith, the devil tricks and decieves you into non believing. There has to bed a beginning. for matter. God is outside of time. Somethin we cannot comprehend because we are not meant to know. we are supposed to have faith.

We are not meant to know. Just have faith. U wont figure it out. No one will. The devil has many ways to trick people. so they dont believe. Find the answer in ur heart. You feel the holy spirit. when in church, when afraid, when alone, when u pray, when anyone teaches and talks about Gods grace. Evan. Just have faith

Ever consider it could have been a coincidence? Also, would you consider it proof God didn’t exist if you prayed for something that never came to be?

How do we know there was nothing before the Big Bang? Ever consider that our cosmos could by cyclic? A Big Bang, billions or trillions of years of expansion before condensing back into the primordial atom to start the whole process over.

we dont. Im thinkin if the universe has always existed then it would have already used up all energy. all rafdioactive atoms would be decayed. The universe would be the same temp.

Wrong. Faith is needed to know who God is, not his existence. His existence is basic and necessary.

You are correct, this does not mean there is a “god” per se. What this proves is an Unmoved Mover. Because effects must be caused, we know there was a cause to the big bang. And there is probably a cause to that. And a cause to that. And a cause to that. However, this list cannot go on forever, else how did this chain even come to being? This demands that there be some sort of thing, not necessarily God, that begins things. This proof has no implications on omniscience, omnipotence, intelligence, or if God loves you: those are all aspects derived from revelation (which is not what I’m discussing here). What this does prove is an eternal conscious thing that itself was uncaused and then caused everything else. If it was not conscious, it wouldn’t have caused anything, so it must be a being. It must be eternal because it was not caused. It cannot be the universe that is this being because of the necessity of consciousness.

That has nothing to do with anything I said. I’m glad you found your dog, and while I do believe the God that made matter bang had in mind at that time to bring your dog back to you at that very moment, it cannot be part of a logical equation.

It wouldn’t matter if there was stuff before the big bang. The proof is about the start of the universe, not the cause of the big bang. We’re only talking about the big bang if it is the start of the universe. What is necessary to start the universe is a cause. We cannot have an infinite list of causes because then the universe has nothing that began it. If it never began, it shouldn’t be. But, obviously, it is: we’re in it. Something must have began it. This gives the necessity of an eternal conscious being. It must be eternal because it is uncaused. It must be conscious because otherwise it wouldn’t have caused anything (it would have just been).

Having faith is believing in God. Without questioning him. To know Him is to love Him. Ur wrong

To know who God is is to love him and follow his ways. Faith is only for believing without seeing. The Holy Spirit is proof “for me” of Gods existance

Your own statement confirms I am correct. “Believing in God” is NOT about existence. If you believe in Vishnu, are you saved? No, your Hindu. You must believe in THE God, and you must know WHO this God is. If you believe that Jesus is not divine, you do not know THE God. I cannot prove WHO God is, I can only prove his existence. James 2:19 “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.” The demons believe in the existence of God, but they do not believe in God in the sense that we use “believe” today. Trusting in existence is NOT the means of salvation. Are you really 25?

Evan, you answered the easy question (Filet’s), but not the initial and much harder question that Will asked. Please do, if you can.

Wat does salvation have to do with wat i said. I no believing is not gonna save me. Im not arguin with u cuz honestly u get off track. Jesus is the savior. I no wat im talkin about. Ur ghe ine with questions. Seems only to argue about. Doesnt matter what i say. U will find wrong in it. When i am really speakin the truth.

Angel I dont doubt my faith I am just pointing out a flaw in his logic. If god could always have existed why couldn’t a universe

Will: i understand. its a mystery. But i believe that the natural energy would have been used up. It goes away slowly as it is nowadays. If it had been around forever then there must be some sort of way it keeps refreshing its natural energy. the atoms are not permanet. it has been proven that eventually die out. how is it diferent than the atoms that form the world? I may not no a lot on this subject but thats how i would come to my conclusion. what do u think”?

One of the number one scientific rules is that matter and energy are never created or destroyed so that is why the universe keeps going

You said, “Having faith is believing in God,” Then you say, “I no believing is not gonna save me.” If you believe salvation comes through faith (by grace), then you contradict yourself. This is why I ask questions: you truly do not know what you’re talking about. I’m glad you have faith in the Christ because that is the Way, but i really wish you were more consistent in your language.

natural energy does though

No i never said that believing would save me. I dunno where ur gettin that from. You should really read thouroghly. tell me is having faith believing in God? Yes if you have faith in him then u have faith he is there without proof. The Holy Spirit also helps u have faith and believe. nobody said nothin about bein saved. Jesus is the only answer for that (in my religion)

When matter and antimatter collide they destroy each other. as far as i no. there are a lot of amazing things in this world. whats beyond it we dont no. Whats beyond it has infinate possibilities. if there is a force controlling us then how do we know that all this was done just to confuse us and seperate us from God.

Ok, you have no idea what you’re talking about. Salvation is by grace through faith. Faith is required for salvation. “Belief” is required because you can’t have faith in something you don’t think exists. The Holy Spirit does not “help” you have faith, but gives the entire thing. Read Paul’s epistles. I’m glad you love Jesus, but PLEASE go learn your stuff. You don’t have an intellectual understanding, and that greatly helps in times where your trust in God becomes shaky. It also helps two people communicate theology.

First, there is no such thing as “natural energy”. Second, atoms do not die, they either split, break, or combine, but the energy in them is thrown off, not used up.

Third and most important, Will said, “you say god has always existed so why can’t the universe?” Unless you say the universe started itself, we have the problem of an infinite series of regression. Think of it this way. Atoms make up all the stuff of the universe. Atoms are made of protons, neutrons, and electrons. Those are made up of quarks and leptons. What are those made of? Well, probably something, but we don’t know. However, this can’t go on forever. There must be some tiny particle that really is not split. That list can’t go on and on forever. We must be made up of something. Similarly, time cannot go back forever. It must have a starting point (bang) and the universe couldn’t have done that to itself (it’s not a conscious being). This demonstrates a necessity for some eternal semi-conscious being.

I no you need faith to be saved. Im not stupid evan. There is no wrong in my answers. You just like to argue. To have faith means u believe. I no that and to be saved u must have faith. which means u believe. and u cant tell me the Holy Spirit goes around and makes people have faith. no u have to HELP it. So it helps you.

I agree with you about the universe. although natural energy is real. the sun, the wind, tides. there is natural gases. My gas company has natural gas.

Evan, your answer is more in need of explanation than the original question! If even a simple photon (or whatever) cannot have come from nowhere and requires a prior cause outside itself, how can the existence of an even higher-order entity - an eternal and un-generated (semi-?)conscious being - be anything but a much greater mystery?

Like I said, read the epistles. Ephesians 2:8 says that it is a gift of God. We don’t help God, God gives. Matthew 22:14 says, “Many are invited, but few are chosen.” It does not say that few accept the invitation, but that they are CHOSEN. Predestination, my friend. Not Calvin’s predestination, which is all screwy and weird. Ask Catholics or Lutherans (not ELCA lutherans…) about this. They got it right.

Hayyim - The photon is a better example than what I had. That one works so much better because a photon isn’t made up of anything. Its just energy. The photon is the base. With a bunch of photons, we expand outward to say there is light, there is magnetism, whatever. With matter, you have the starting particle, whatever that may actually be, then quarks, then an electron, then an atom, then a molecule, etc. In both of these, there is a starting point. There must be, otherwise there is no foundation to the rest of the things we see. The question, “What is a photon made of?” is answered by “dude, it’s a photon. It can’t be split.” Motion works the same way. We can’t just regress forever, there is a point where things must have been started. This something that started things could not have been started by another (else it’s not the original) and it must have be conscious to act without being acted upon (a rock will not move unless something makes it). We can’t call this being God, but we can called it an “Unmoved Mover”, and this unmoved mover is a logical necessity.

Even all your logic is based off te idea that the universe needs a beginning well it doesn’t. If all complex things need a beginning then what began the unmoved mover. You’ll say nothing because an unmoved mover is unmoved well then why can’t the universe be unmoved

“It must have been conscious to act without being acted upon” - This is a statement of faith, not of logical necessity.

Will: how do u believe God comes in to affect then?? If the universe was already here. and God didnt create it. Where does God lay with u as a “christian”

I mean Even the Holy Spirit doesnt make u believe or have faith it is a gift yes i agree. but u have to accept it. by helpin yourself and lettin it help you… U are just beating around the subject pin pointing little words to turn it into somethin completley different than what i meant.

So you believe that there are few chosen people who are allowed to enter heaven. Because if you are not invitied to join teh Holy Spirit then ur SOL. So all the other people who want to be with God and want to serve him well. are just SOL. they have no chance??? then wats the point of salvation? Isnt the book of life updated when somebody is saved? dont they have a chance?

I already said I am arguing on te behalf of scientific logic and not my own personal belief

Ah, the theologians cross, “Why some people and not others?” I don’t know why. Nothing tells us. However, I trust God to be fully Just and fully Merciful. Whatever happens is the best, for the saved as well as the unsaved. We know that faith is a gift. We know God gives it. God will give it to those that it should go to. So, my guess (yes, I’m guessing) is that those that really want it will get it, and those that really don’t won’t.

Will: The universe cannot be the unmoved mover because it is not conscious. A rock will never move itself. An asteroid will not change directed unless acted upon by an outside force. However, conscious beings, being animals (kinda) and humans, can act without being acted upon. I type on this computer out of my own will. A rock cannot do that. Similarly, the universe cannot start itself (I could argue contingency here but that’s a different proof); it’s not conscious; it has no will.

Hayyim: The faith is that the Unmoved Mover cares about me and has saved my immaterial self from death. It could see me as a play thing. The only way to know who the Unmoved Mover is is by it’s own revelation and my trust in that revelation. I, unlike most Christians, found my faith after I knew, knew, the existence of a god (at least one, as this doesn’t say there can’t be multitudes of unmoved movers). I am now a Protestant going to a highly philosophical Catholic University. It costs a butt load of money, but it is completely worth it. The understanding and the logic that is required here makes one examine everything through very clear glasses. You will notice I won’t be asking about the Ontological proof. It’s bogus. Back to the actual objection, if the universe can begin without something acting on it, I would like to know how. It’d be like an asteroid changing direction in space. It just won’t happen. This requires a consciousness.

I see. Ok I can go with that. So God knows before it happens who will be saved and who wont. Well all i know is im happy to love Him and Jesus and i will proudly announce it to the world no matter what. Pray that im in his book of life. and see him when the time is here.

Have to agree with Evan. Sounds logical to me. Congrats on goin to that school. wish i had the money to go myself. it would be awesome.

Even that all is based on the fact the universe had a beginning so if you can believe an unmoved mover doesn’t need a beginning then an ever present universe doesn’t either, what if the universe is like many native tribes said, a cycles the universe is a constant mix of motion until it collapses and reforms since energy and mass are never lost this is quite possibly

What if God is beyond our knownledge. We can figure out the universe kinda but not God. thats cuz he is amazing and lives outside of time unlike the universe. God created time. He is infinate. The universe circles around time. years months days hours mins. All the planets are on a schedule. even if we are expanding and eventually will bang like before its all on a time schedule. What if God is outside of that time controlling it? Our minds cannot comprehend becasue we arent made to.

Will: I already stated the universe must be conscious if it is to be the unmoved mover. It is not conscious. Therefore, it cannot be the unmoved mover.

Yeah it isn’t conscious but there is this thing called scientific chance in which things happen aka life on earth. Angel is right I feel the same way as her but scientifically we know very little about the universe and how it works about as much as we understand god through acolytes so we can’t just go around saying the universe is this so there must be god and god is all powerful so it makes since. Evan I get you are trying to sound super smart and religious right now but stop no logic for god can be made. I believe it says somewhere in the bible the angels envy us for we are blind yet we believe. In another place it says to believe without proof. Stop trying to through reasoning into your faith. You know what a synonym of faith is; it’s trust. So trust the lord your god with all your heart and all your mind and all your soul

I am going to abstain from insulting your intelligence. Inanimate objects do not act. There is no such thing as “Scientific Chance”. And the bible never says any of that. We have Hebrews 11:1 that says, “Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.” I do not see, I reason. Faith is not blind.

Evan, I was going to answer your question - “if the universe can begin without something acting on it, I would like to know how” - but I see that Will has already done so: “if you can believe an unmoved mover doesn’t need a beginning then an ever present universe doesn’t either.” What you are calling logical necessity is, in fact, an article of faith on your part that the universe began. As you put it earlier: “there is a starting point. THERE MUST BE [my emphasis], otherwise there is no foundation to the rest of the things we see.” From an empirical or secular-rationalist perspective, it is your “otherwise” that is precisely correct: There is no foundation to the existence of the universe; it just is. To dismiss that possibility for the universe on the one hand, while claiming it for an unmoved but conscious mover on the other hand, is a logical contradiction. That claim (“there must be”) is not motivated not by logic, not even consistent with logic, but by faith. Angel has it just right in her paragraph beginning with “What if God is beyond our knowledge…” Logic can take you only as far as the realization that logic itself, as a faculty of the human mind, could not possibly be capable of grasping the Transcendent. To put it another way, nothing that can be proven by human logic is worthy of being called G!d. For a person who wants to keep faith with G!d, it is enough to know that logic and science are likewise incapable of disproving what you know with your whole being (not by rationality alone) to be true - not just temporarily incapable because it is beyond their current reach, but inherently and permanently incapable, because it is beyond their purview. The place to find the confirmation you seek is rather, as Will said, in the opening up of your heart.

How do you know what caused the big bang was god? Any unexplained thing is catagorized under the creation of ‘God’ by believers.God’s all bullshit,we humen beings have a habit to make theories and we human being in our later generations like to believe in them cos the fact some how fits in our imagination.And yeah,just cos something is unexplained doesn’t mean it is somehow related to god.Nature has it’s secrets,its own ways.You feeling seduced is not a creation of god,it’s a natural feeling which your natural instincts lead to. . And we have the space and time theory which you place forward how do you know that god is responsible for it. . And now comes the bang.If someone needs to create or get something to begin cos as you say anything cannot come from nothing,so,where did god come from? How did he come from nothing? Who made him? . My view is GOD’S BULLSHIT some human beings are fascinated by it thus they like to exagegerate and connect things with their wild imagnations to god. . Who created god,how did he come from nothing? And what proof do you have that all unexplainable objects are somehow related to god?

Evan you’re right inanimate objects don’t act but the laws of physics do so the universe could exist forever and kept going without god. And there is a thing called chance within science it plays a major part in evolutionof creatures. I am going to abstain from insulting your intelligence but your logic is flawed and you are using incorrect scientific reasoning to come to a predetermined answer. You say the school you goes to gives you depth in science and religion well it is really flaring your science on the grounds of religion

Well aren’t you the stereotypical internet atheist. I’ll answer in the order you placed your objections without any comment (other than this one) about how you type.

I don’t know god caused the big bang. There could have been something else. I was using the big bang as an assumption to what the start was. My claim is that the first action that began motion is god’s action.

I do not hold to a “God of the gaps” theology. You’re correct in that many people use this as proof there is God. There are material causes to nearly everything and people need to stop assuming that “science can’t explain it!” In fact, science is the way God works in this world. For example, in the bible Moses parts the red sea. How? A great wind came and did it. A great wind doesn’t make a miracle. However, the fact the great wind came exactly when the Israelites needed it does. Miracles are not about defying the laws of physics. Emotions do not prove God’s existence either.

It’s the space-time theory, and because god is the first cause of everything. There absolutely will be a material cause for it that is entirely explained by science. Just like the parting of the waters, material causes do not rule out immaterial causes.

Ah, the age old question, “who made god?” This is a great question that most people just shrug off, and I think you’re the second one on this board to ask it (I’m not reading through everything again to see). The answer is, “If God was made, he is not God; whatever made God is God.” The reason we must posit that there is an ultimate creator is because this list cannot go ad infinitum, as explained in my pre-answer to objections to 2).

Your view that “GOD’S BULLSHIT” is dogma. I’m not Roman Catholic for a reason. You’ve postulated an idea with no proof. Ever read Aristotle?

God was not created nor did he come from nothing. If it was created, the creator of God is God and God always was. He needs no cause. The logic says that there must be a starter and says nothing about how there was a starter. I can’t answer how there is, but it must be that there is. If not, nothing started anything, and the universe never was/is. This obviously isn’t the case.

Hayyim - Empiricism is self-contradictory. If you can only know things through your senses, please tell me how you can know that? That is not something that can be sensed. Secular Rationalism is what I am addressing (I’m closest to Theistic Rationalist, btw). I’d like to say it makes me very happy to find someone who knows their terms. =)

The universe must have a foundation. If we keep debating we’re going to get to the contingency proof, but I’m trying to limit myself to just one and see if it is actually consistent within itself. You cannot argue for ad infinitum. Things that have no beginning are not. Obviously, things are, so there must be a starter. This starter of motion can’t have been started by something else (because then whatever started it would be the starter). There is no faith here; faith would be saying it is the Christian Trinity or strict Jewish Monotheism (What sect of Judaism are you, btw?) I’m just saying there must be a unmoved mover because of two very true premises.

I guess what you could propose as an existentialist (although I don’t think you are) is that is doesn’t matter if there is an unmoved mover, I am and will be my own god. That is incoherent, but as an existentialist it really doesn’t matter if you’re incoherent.

I make the claim that we can completely understand the Transcendent because reason is part of the Transcendent. Part of the Chayah, the gift from God that is man’s alone.

I have greatly enjoyed typing all this to you. It is rare to meet someone that knows what they’re talking about.

Will - The laws of physics do not act. The laws of physics explains how things act. The universe would not have “kept going” because it would not have started. And there is no such thing as chance; there are no coincidences. Everything has a cause.

We agree about empiricism. You may introduce the “contingency proof” any time you like. {:^) I don’t know what it is, but I do know that anything subject to logical proof cannot be G!d. The part cannot comprehend the whole (like the child cannot fully understand Job, btw.) But, in any case, the Transcendent does not consist of parts; it (S/He) is One. What you describe as matters of faith are, indeed, matters of faith, but they are far from the only ones; for instance… Will and I have several times identified a logical contradiction between your second premise, the Universe cannot have existed eternally, and your conclusion that there must therefore have been an Unmoved Mover that existed eternally. (You can’t have it both ways; logically speaking, eternity is either possible for both or impossible for both. If “Things that have no beginning are not,” then the UM, too, is not - whether conscious or otherwise.) So far you have responded by merely repeating both of your contradictory claims, bolstered by some qualifiers like “cannot” and “must” and “obviously.” I submit that the reason you have not yet offered any explanation to resolve the contradiction is that there is none. There is only your commitment to these claims as a matter of doctrine. I’d be happy to consider any attempt to resolve the contradiction, but if further repetition is all you have, then I think we have reached the end of the argument. I’ve enjoyed it too, thanks. {:^)

Hayyim - I almost conceded defeat, but after writing my concession, I realized the logic in it again. This is not an argument against eternity. Eternity is entirely possible. This is not about eternal existence, but motion. The universe could be eternal, but it could not have motion. It would be sitting in a little bitty ball and would never have went bang (assuming that was the start of motion). Motion in an inanimate object must be started, not existence. Also, I’m not proving God; I’m proving a starter. And you can know God (though he’s infinite and we’re not, so we’ll never know him completely): Moses would speak to him all the time.

If gravity exists from the start and stars exist from the start then logically so does energy and so does motion

Existence vs. motion is a distinction without a difference. You say (with no explanation beyond your assertion) that while the existence of the Universe may be without beginning, motion within the Universe “must” have had a starting point. But if you transpose the terms, you will see that what is true of the existence of the universe is equally true of the existence of motion: If either one “must” have a starting point, then so “must” any prior cause you attribute them to; i.e. an Unmoved Mover. If the UM can be without beginning, so can matter/energy in motion. There is no logical basis for allowing eternality in one case while denying its possibility in the other.

You introduced the UM-G!d confusion with your original question, but it’s good that you recognize there is a difference between them. After you abandon your search for the chimera of logical “proofs” of one, we can turn our attention to consideration of the other.

Ok, I now conceed. The motion is irrelevant to the equation. Eternal existence is entirely possible for one or the other if I remain within this proof.

A rare occurrence in intellectual discussions these days; you have my admiration for it. Your reward {;^) is this open secret about G!d’s creation of the world: When did it occur? The truest answer is not 14 billion years ago, much less 6000 solar years ago. The truest answer is: At this very moment! Because the miracle is that anything exists right now. And even given that there was a universe in existence at the time when I finished the previous sentence, why does it still exist NOW? Only because G!d is giving it existence at every moment. Awesome! What can one say except to give thanks and praise!

That is actually the contingency proof =) But yes, all that is existent gets its existence from the source of existence, the eternal one. Thanks and praise to the I AM!

God is just a way to explain the unexplained. Without it we would all just be scared and confused.

God is just a way to explain the unexplained. Without it we would all just be scared and confused.

What about those things that are explained that are attributed to God? I think that God is the root cause of my good grades.

It all depends on you beliefs but think about this. Why is there so many interpretations of god? The cristian religion won’t even admit that they took ideas from Wicca and other pagan religions. Like Christmas. Its all just an elaborate support system. When someone you care for you lie to make them think its all ok. That’s all religion is. Not facts, or way of thinking, just a big support system that just keeps building up to the point of no return.

People are just afraid pod the unknown without the support system of religion what would the world be like?

I completely agree with u will. But like I’ve been saying god is just a way to fill in the gaps of science. Its all just a support system. All just a lie. Humans are afraid of the unknown and that’s everyone main fear. If they say different they’re lying. People are afraid to learn the truth about stuff because they are afraid of change. With god we can expect what happens next but truly its all just a mist covering up the truth that lays just beneath the fog.

I completely agree with u will. But like I’ve been saying god is just a way to fill in the gaps of science. Its all just a support system. All just a lie. Humans are afraid of the unknown and that’s everyone main fear. If they say different they’re lying. People are afraid to learn the truth about stuff because they are afraid of change. With god we can expect what happens next but truly its all just a mist covering up the truth that lays just beneath the fog.

Christmas means “Christ’s mass”, which is the church service celebrating Jesus’ birth. The “pagan roots” has only things to do with the date, the winter solstice. The catholic church (of which I am not a member) decided to celebrate Jesus’ brithday on the winter solstice as a conversion tactic. The pagans always had a party, so the catholics decided to have a party to compete.

You actually did not answer my question. You gave a red herring. I asked about God as the cause of things that already have simply material explanations. Please go back to it, if you will.

Where do you get that it is a support system? There is a hell in Christianity. My mother is a Christian by name, but according to my own beliefs, if my judgments are correct (which they may not be, so I don’t voice this to anyone except anonymously over the internet), my own mother is going to hell. How is that comforting?

People are afraid of the unknown, true, but this statement has nothing to do with the cosmological argument. Also, you have an undistributed middle in the claim that people are afraid of the unknown and therefore they make up religion.

Ashley, I’d really like if you’d actually speak of the cosmological argument, but whatever. My religion is not comforting to me. My assertions do not fill in the gaps that science has yet to fill. My claim is quite deist to the point I think all miracles have natural scientifically explained causes.

Yes, it is, RSE. If you are to start something as big as the universe, you can’t be anything less than a God. You don’t have to call him God, though. If we agree that something started the universe, then let’s just say thanks.

there isnt enough proof thats why im a wiccan

and dont you think thats why you might have a demon following you? i know you just asked this question and i answered it. How do you not believe in God but you do demons? that doesnt make sence

You don’t think there’s enough proof…. Do you believe in the existence of Socrates? How about Cleopatra?