Is it true the Catholic faith has 'no problem' with abortion ?

Amblessed, If a pregnant women had a problem that was going to cause her zygote to spontaneously abort (miscarry), would medical science step in to try and save that zygote? No, because it couldn’t do anything. Now if she was in her 7th month, and complications occurred the threatened the fetus, would medical science step in to try and save the fetus? Yes, they would. That tells me that medical science does see a difference between the different stages of life. As arachnid said, the real question is at what point does a fetus have rights separate and apart from the mother.

And remember a zygote can be created in a petrie dish too. But of course you probably think that that is wrong also…

Scientific fact:

· “Human development begins at fertilization.”

• The Developing Human, Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th Edition,

Moore, Persaud, Saunders, 1998, page 18.

And every other book on embryology will agree - check it out.

She’s wrong. The Catholic church officially opposes abortion, and the right to life movement is huge among Catholics - more so than any other denomination I imagine.

Im catholic and in my church they think abortion is a sin. Its taking a human life.

amblessed: You’ve raised this “scientific fact” before. I don’t think it means what you want it to mean. Yes, of course human development begins at fertilization. That doesn’t mean that a fertilized embryo is the same as a self-aware human being.

“They are not parts of their mothers, and what they are depends not at all upon the opinions of theologians of any faith. “

Spoken by an archbishop of the catholic church, as a bare assertion, bereft of any factual backing, I’m not inclined to lend it much weight at all. Just because he says it doesn’t make it true, and claiming something is “obvious” is frequently (as in this case) simply a crutch for “I can’t provide justification for it, so I’ll just assert it’s true”.

My mom was born and raised Catholic and she believes it’s a womans choice. Not a man who doesn’t have to go through what the mother has too. Not a man who might rape the woman.

Given that they’re non-sentient, unfeeling embryos at the time - bundles of cells - is it such a bad thing that healthy children are instead conceived and born in their place?

We all get that you don’t like abortion for religious reasons. But please, stop trying to tell us we should all be disgusted too.

Yes, the Catholic Church does condemn abortion.

Amblessed - how interesting that you quote Edward Cardinal Egan, Archbishop of New York.

This is the same Edward Cardinal Egan, Archbishop of New York who was criticized for concealing the names of priests who were accused of child molestation and helping to keep it out of the public eye, thus helping the cover-up.

I guess, according to Archbishop Egan, abortion is wrong but molesting children should be covered up so it can continue. Protecting a fetus is of the utmost importance, but once born, those same babies are fair game for molestation.

Sad fact: As many as an estimated nine out of 10 children with Down syndrome are aborted in the womb, sought out by increasingly sophisticated prenatal tests and eliminated as too flawed, too burdensome, too different to live. This is the ugly eugenic underbelly of American life, even as we congratulate ourselves on our tolerance and diversity.

amblessed: See jimahl’s latest post. You misrepresented what pelosi said.

Further, your claim that this is some sort of secular justification for being anti-abortion is completely off base. Yes, embryos are human cells - did anyone ever doubt that? However, so are my skin cells, but I don’t see you crying ‘murder’ every time I scratch myself.

In American medicine’s most prominent human embryology text, “The Developing Human,” whose authors are not imprecise on the matter of life: “Human development begins at fertilization when a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoon) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to produce a single cell – a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.”

In other words, human life begins at conception. That is not a religious posture, but a scientific fact that the lowest paid laborer on the planet can assert without qualm. What we do with that understanding is another matter, but no one in the 21st century should pretend not to know when human life begins.

On this matter at least, the church and science are in agreement.

Totally false. Catholics believe abortion is killing an unborn life. Along with birth control, contreception, and stem-cell research. Catholics believe all of this is wrong because it is preventing a life that doesn’t get a choice of whether or not it wants to live.

Nancy Pelosi DID NOT deny that the Catholic Church condemns abortion. She said there has been much research within the Church regarding the issue of when life begins. The following is a copy of the transcript from that show. What Amblessed stated is misleading and incorrect.

MR. BROKAW: Senator Obama saying the question of when life begins is above his pay grade, whether you’re looking at it scientifically or theologically. If he were to come to you and say, “Help me out here, Madame Speaker. When does life begin?” what would you tell him?

REP. PELOSI: I would say that as an ardent, practicing Catholic, this is an issue that I have studied for a long time. And what I know is, over the centuries, the doctors of the church have not been able to make that definition. And Senator–St. Augustine said at three months. We don’t know. The point is, is that it shouldn’t have an impact on the woman’s right to choose. Roe v. Wade talks about very clear definitions of when the child–first trimester, certain considerations; second trimester; not so third trimester. There’s very clear distinctions. This isn’t about abortion on demand, it’s about a careful, careful consideration of all factors and–to–that a woman has to make with her doctor and her god. And so I don’t think anybody can tell you when life begins, human life begins. As I say, the Catholic Church for centuries has been discussing this, and there are those who’ve decided…

MR. BROKAW: The Catholic Church at the moment feels very strongly that it…

REP. PELOSI: I understand that.

MR. BROKAW: …begins at the point of conception.

REP. PELOSI: I understand. And this is like maybe 50 years or something like that. So again, over the history of the church, this is an issue of controversy. But it is, it is also true that God has given us, each of us, a free will and a responsibility to answer for our actions. And we want abortions to be safe, rare, and reduce the number of abortions. That’s why we have this fight in Congress over contraception. My Republican colleagues do not support contraception. If you want to reduce the number of abortions, and we all do, we must–it would behoove you to support family planning and, and contraception, you would think. But that is not the case. So we have to take–you know, we have to handle this as respectfully–this is sacred ground. We have to handle it very respectfully and not politicize it, as it has been–and I’m not saying Rick Warren did, because I don’t think he did, but others will try to.

Yes, but that is NOT denying that the Catholic Church has condemned abortion. Her answer was in response to WHEN life begins…NOT does the Catholic Church have a problem with abortion. And she is correct, The Church has researched and discussed when, exactly, life begins for a very long time. Your question states that she said the Catholic Church does not condemn abortion. She did not say that.

Amblessed still continues to spread the misinformation he recieves from ulta-conservative websites like the free republic.

Your cut and paste headline read: “House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, a self-professed Catholic, denied that the Catholic Church condemns abortion “

There is no way you can take Pelosi’s comments about Catholic doctor’s opinion on when life begins, and twist it into her saying the church doesn’t condemn it. As utopia clearly showed in the follow up question “The Catholic Church at the moment feels very strongly that it… begins at the point of conception.”, and she answered: “I understand that.” No ambiguity from her about how the church itself feels.

Amblessed, you really should stop posting this absolute nonsense you get from those websites. They are not grounded in reality. C’mon man, I know you are smarter than that. It takes very little research to expose these lies.

Oops - another says ‘this is an issue that I have studied for a long time.’ Pelosi was wrong…so jimahl, utopia, arachnid, I wonder if you think he also, doesn’t know what he’s talking about…

A high-ranking official in the Roman Catholic Church says U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is not in line with church teaching when it comes to her support of abortion rights. Archbishop Charles Chaput is archbishop of the Archdiocese of Denver. During an interview on a Cable News Channel, he said Pelosi’s comments are not consistent with church teaching.

“St. Augustine did not have a sophisticated embryology, and there was all kinds of discussion [such as] ‘When can the human body receive the human soul? When is it formed enough to do that?’” the bishop explains. “But even for those who said that the soul came later, there was a sense that if you destroyed life at any point, it was still a very serious sin. And now, of course, biologically we know that from the moment of conception, a human being begins to be a >> human being <<.”

It appears I was not the only one appalled at Pelosi’s remarks:

Like many other citizens of this nation, I was shocked to learn that the Speaker of the House of Representatives of the United States of America would make the kind of statements that were made to Mr. Tom Brokaw of NBC-TV on Sunday, August 24, 2008. What the Speaker had to say about theologians and their positions regarding abortion was not only misinformed; it was also, and especially, utterly incredible in this day and age.

We are blessed in the 21st century with crystal-clear photographs and action films of the living realities within their pregnant mothers. No one with the slightest measure of integrity or honor could fail to know what these marvelous beings manifestly, clearly, and obviously are, as they smile and wave into the world outside the womb. In simplest terms, they are human beings with an inalienable right to live, a right that the Speaker of the House of Representatives is bound to defend at all costs for the most basic of ethical reasons. They are not parts of their mothers, and what they are depends not at all upon the opinions of theologians of any faith. Anyone who dares to defend that they may be legitimately killed because another human being “chooses” to do so or for any other equally ridiculous reason should not be providing leadership in a civilized democracy worthy of the name.

Edward Cardinal Egan

Archbishop of New York

August 26, 2008

Hmm, I’m not sure the Catholic church comdemns abortions. I didn’t hear that about Nancy Polosi mentioning that. Maybe it’s true the Catholics have done research but, I’m not really sure if they condemn obortions or controceptives. This is a real good question though.

amblessed, no one disputes that the church disagrees with what she actually did say. I franly could care less what the catholic church thinks. But what she did not say (that you said she did say) was that the catholic church doesn’t condemn abortion, or that they have ‘no problem’ with it. Clearly that is untrue as the actual transcript shows. Why can’t you own up to what you post here? Why do you always try to deflect what is being said to you by bringing up something completely irrelevant, like what cardinal egan thinks? Can’t you just admit that what you said was not true, and was copied from a right-wing website?

LOL, there is none so blind as one who will not see (refuses) - just because you don’t agree, doesn’t make it any less true…how dare Archbishop Egan, Cardinal Rigali, and Bishop Lori think they know more about the Catholic religion than Speaker Nancy Pelosi !!…have a great day !!

“It appears I was not the only one appalled at Pelosi’s remarks:”

I never said you were. And it was not your distaste for what she said that bothers me. It is your (and Cardinal Egan’s) misrepresentation of her remarks. You posted a lie being spread by the right wing partisans.

amblessed, we actually agree more on this subject than most, but I can not let mistruths go by without pointing them out.

amblessed: ‘Human Life’ doesn’t begin at conception - it’s a continuum from mother to child. What the book you’re quoting says is that the formation of the zygote is the point at which human development begins. When “life begins” is a red-herring, though - there’s no point at which there is something that isn’t alive.

Regardless, this is quite separate from when they should be considered a human being with all the associated rights. Using an embryology text to try and draw a conclusion about ethics is spurious.

Amblessed - In your view, to point out the Archbishop’s act of concealment of child molesters is bashing.

But to misquote Pelosi is quite alright.

You certainly seem to have one set of rules for yourself and another for everyone else.

“As for when life starts, even scientists will say it is at the moment of conception.”

Yes, but the issue was never “when does life start” (which is a bit of a non-sequitir anyway - there’s no part of the process that isn’t ‘alive’), but rather “when do we treat something as an independent human being with all the rights that implies”?

The Catholic faith is against abortion in ALL circumstances! It is ALWAYS the killing of an innocent human life. The Catholic church’s teaching on contraception is NOT the rhthm method. It is called “Natural Family Planning” and it is based on biological signs to know whether or not a woman is fertile and is EXTREMELY effective! As for when life starts, even scientists will say it is at the moment of conception.

Not only do they forbid abortion - a practice which leads to many deaths when desperate women seek out back-alley abortions - but they forbid all methods of contraception other than the ‘rhythym method’, and do their best to prevent education about sex or contraception. The number of people who have died due to easily preventible HIV infections thanks to the catholic church’s misinformation is horrifying.

Why would what Mrs. Pelosi say have you all in such a dither…she’s an elected official, who would like very much to continue as one…You don’t make it to Speaker of the House, without learning to talk out of both sides of your mouth…Hipocrasy not only exists in politics, it’s essential…

Her answer to Brokaw, was a non-answer…

phrannie

REP. PELOSI: I would say that as an ardent, practicing Catholic, this is an issue that I have studied for a long time. And what I know is, over the centuries, the doctors of the church have not been able to make that definition. And Senator–St. Augustine said at three months. >>> We don’t know <<<…HER words exactly as quoted above.

utopia, here’s some more Catholic prominent Leaders you can bash:

Cardinal Justin Rigali and Bishop William Lori responded that “the church’s moral teaching never justified or permitted abortion at any stage of development.” And Chaput says abortion “is always gravely evil – and so are the evasions employed to justify it.”

Yet Pelosi said: “I have studied for a long time” - it may be comforting to you the Speaker studies a subject and comes up with such an off-base conclusion, not me - justify, depend, spin away !