Is belief In Jesus necessary for Salvation ?

Thanks semi1900 ! - my mistake.

The sacrifice of Christ on the cross becomes meaningless in Obama’s worldview.

I’ll take that as an admission that you have no recollection of loving and praying to god as a new born. Why then make such absurd claims to begin with?

Is it really so horrible to admit that you were taught the things you believe?

When you were a new born, in what ways do you recall worshiping god?

Newborns don’t even know how to talk, nor do they even have permanent memories, yet you claim to have believed in Jesus since that point.

yes I really have. :]]]

I was taught the things I believe– but as I said before god puts it in every single one of us to LOVE him as a new born and its what we learn from our parents and throughout our lives that puts us astray from our savoir. You’d have to be a servent of him to really realize. God is sooo good :) and I can’t ever imagine a life without him.

I believe that the only way to the Father is through Jesus. I think you have to believe Jesus is the son of God. You receive Salvation by believing … not by doing.

amblessed, if that’s the way it works, it seems pretty stupid to have kids at all, or if you do have them, shouldn’t you pray that they die prior to reaching the age of accountability, so they can be assured of going ot heaven?

Further, what about those that are over the “age of accountability” (whatever that is) but never hear about christianity? I’m specifically addressing gasmanobt3’s claim that “every human being ever born afterwards would have the opportunity to accept Christ as the only way of salvation from their own choice.”

rneal, I’d love to come to your defense in regard to the above post, but alas you’re on your own. You’ve chosen the road of incivility in regards to the ‘pearls before swine’ horse hockey, so ‘ant brains’ is your comeuppance.

rnealw how can you judge anyone else based on someone in something they have in commen?

In respone to the original question: Not unless you believe all that nonsense in the Bible, otherwise you’d pick and choose. So, I’d say no.

The last time Church and state were combined we had the dark ages. . . Good one Amblessed.

Ann Coulter was a big fan of His biography also. . . . She compared it to ‘Mein Kampf’

      We had 2 lawyers go to prison close to here about a year ago for selling cocaine, meth and weed. . . . . . . one went to harvard and the other yale. . . . Sound real smart don't they. . .

…I’m not surprised that Ann Coulter is intimately familiar with Mein Kampf.

I wasn’t aware of that, but, it is the End Time Religion. The bible tells us it would happen, and I am seeing evidence of it all around. And it is spreading like wildfire, as multitudes jump on this bandwagon, to their peril.

The bible makes it very clear, that Jesus is the way, the truth and the light, and anyone who comes in any other way, is a theif and a robber.

The End Time Religion, is a hodge podge of all kinds of different belief.. all rolled into one.

One can come to this belief.. no matter what belief you are, in other words.. anything goes. If it feels good, do it. It is and will deceive many.

People love to be their own God, so that they do not have to bow the knee… in this religion, there is often times, no god, of any kind. Just man, in all his glory.

666 mark of man.

Outlaws? It’s pretty much impossible to get elected president of the US unless you’re at least slightly christian, and the most anti-religious thing any candidate can propose and get away with it is separation of church and state, something enshrined in your founding documents.

Being upset that the christian fundamentalist agenda might not be furthered by your secular leaders for a few years is something else altogether from being ‘outlaws’.

To leogee: Regardless of weither or not you believe in god, jesus christ was a real person. He lived and died, just like the other people in the bible. Saying that he is fake would be the same as saying that the Holocaust never occured or that Julius Caesar never lived.

“Irrelevant to politics! Who cares what religious belief a politician has, as long as they act morally and are smart.”

I disagree. If a politician will allow his religion to affect his decisions (and I’d argue that inevitably, every religion has issues that will be problematic), then knowing what they believe and what it implies is important.

the ONLY way to enter heaven is believing that jesus is the only way to get in…you have to believe that only through him and by his taking on our sins, we are able to have our sins washed away. we are undeserving wretches who deserve hell and eternal damnation, but through God’s grace those who believe will be forgiven. =)

amblessed, you posted John 14:6 on this thread already.

I think you meant to post it here: http://www.funadvice.com/q/food_133332

The evidence that Jesus Christ lived is more prevalent than that proving that Plato, Socrates or Homer existed. There is more documentary evidence for the New Testament than any other work of ancient literature by far. And the documentary evidence points to authorship well within the time range of the life of Christ, despite what the skeptics say as they try to create self-fulfilling tests.

The Bible tells us to watch out for the wolves in sheep’s clothing . . . And to be able to reconize where a person stands by their fruits (things they do or say)! Praise be to the Lord!

That’s not true. Many Christians believe that Jesus’ sacrifice atoned for all sin, not just the sin of believers. From that perspective, the sacrifice had even greater significance than it does from the much narrower view of “it only counts if you believe it”.

The Bible is very clear on this subject. Any person who accepts Jesus as their Saviour will be taken to heaven when He comes.

But, there are those who appear to be good people, but do not accept Jesus as their Saviour, these will not be in heaven.

Heaven is not automatic. Those who do not accept Jesus will not be in heaven.

God gave us all freedom of choice. If we choose to love and follow Jesus as our Saviour, will be saved.

Those who refuse to acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Saviour will not be in heaven.

It’s as simple as that.

Choose Him and live.

Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine. Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die. (Joh 12:30-33)

“Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”– for they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.” (Mar 3:28-30)

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, (1Jn 2:1-4)

Rom. 5:18 - Good verse, But you must except the Christ to obtain salvation , Rom 1:16, 1Th 5:9, 2Ti 3:15 I trust you must own a bible since you found those scriptures

The salvation is universal correct but it is only given to those who obey the word of God. For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. (1Th 5:9-10) And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Act 4:12) For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” (Rom 1:16-17) In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, (Eph 6:16-18) Romans 11 - The apostle, having reconciled that great truth of the rejection of the Jews with the promise made unto the fathers, is, in this chapter, further labouring to mollify the harshness of it, and to reconcile it to the divine goodness in general. It might be said, “Hath God then cast away his people?” The apostles therefore sets himself, in this chapter, to make a reply to this objection, and that two ways: - I. He shows at large what the mercy is that is mixed with this wrath (v. 1-32). I. He infers thence the infinite wisdom and sovereignty of God, with the adoration of which he concludes this chapter and subject (Rom_11:33-36).

If you don’y have a bible you may use this one. . . .it’s free to use. http://www.biblegateway.com/

uhm, ok then, so you recall loving and thanking god when you were a new born?

* “I have been a believer since the day I was born “

That’s clearly not true.

Fires Pink Fluffy Bunnies in abundance

Seriously- calm down!

bbb, I hardly believe that there’s only one verse from which to get the concept of salvation by Christ alone. I mean, look at Acts 4:12 - Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. Are you saying that the Apostle Peter is wrong?

Peter also told people that the way to salvation was “to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved”. If there was another option, you’d think it would have been mentioned.

How about Paul in Romans 6:23 - “for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

So far I have yet to find someone suggesting that salvation is present (in the Christian faith at least) for anyone but those who believe in Christ. Even Romans 10 says that there is no faith apart from hearing.

Depends - what kind of Christian are you?

From what I’ve read here on FA - if you don’t know Jesus because you never heard of Jesus, then you’re not automatically going to hell…because, those who’ve never had a chance at hearing the good news wouldn’t be put in pergatory, because your God isn’t that kind of jerk.

:) However, given the translation issues (there are many) and the questionable way in which the bible was assembled at the council of Carthage, and the time lapse between Jesus death & the first book in the new testament (20+ years for the first writing in 50 AD then another 220 ish for the council where they assembled the bible)…well, it’s ODD don’t you think that modern Christianity insists you thump the book that you COULDN’T have owned 1000 years ago, and visit a building which DIDN’T exist until recently, to be saved?

It’s odd, to me, that this is the case. However, I agree with Obama’s assessment, it sounds like he’s a lot smarter than most give him credit for.

Amblessed, where in the Bible does it say young ones are not also judged?

rneal, I think you may have missed the thinly veiled slam on Ann Coulter in my post.

Her comments were not favorable. .

The evidence for Jesus is indeed voluminous However, it’s all of the poorest imaginable quality.

Obama has the brain of an ant. . . . Of course it is. . . . .

I disagree. You already stated the verse

I have just seen miomios assertion that Jesus Christ was a real person. So far as I am aware there is no proof in fact that he ever did exist. We know of Julius Caesar and the Holocaust because of contemporary writings and living people who can bear witness and other things which can be cross-referenced. None of the writings about Jesus were made at the alleged time of his life, nor have any contemporary Roman records of his life and death been found although he was supposed to have had thousands of followers in Israel. His life and miracles (?) are to say the least, extremely doubtful. I do believe researchers though who have made a serious study of writings of the time and who aver there were several preachers roaming the Holy Land at the time all giving similar messages to the alleged Jesus. In a hundred years time maybe people will be worshipping Harry Potter- his miracles have been well-documented and the millions of books about him which have been sold show he MUST be a real person!

And the Christians that sit in judgment of others will join all of us sinners in hell.

“The texts say ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved’ not ‘thump a book and go to church.’”

I think his point was that the vast majority of Christians 1000 years ago lived under very different circumstances than those today could even imagine. For example, they couldn’t read the Bible and wouldn’t know what the texts say.

Even the earliest Christians would disagree that belief in Jesus was enough for salvation. Clement, Origen, Justin Martyr, and Hermas were the leading Christian thinkers of their day, and all believed that Christianity was something you practice, not something you believe in. Good works, fasting, and abstaining from sin all led to salvation in their view. Even Paul writes extensively in the Bible about the necessity of good works.

The belief in the sacrifice of Jesus as being one’s only requirement for salvation is something that has emerged very recently in Christian history, largely in the Post-Reformation.

“It’s the one’s who have heard and reject salvation that can and will be lost.”

So if a missionary goes to a country without christianity and converts, say, 40% of the population, they’re responsible for untold numbers of people who will be tortured for all eternity? Doesn’t sound very reasonable.

“Further more, scripture has been translated in to almost every language known to man by now. Sure there might be some obscure places that haven’t yet, but a vast majority have a bible or literature in their own tongue so they too will have the choice as well.”

Throughout history, most people have not been aware of christianity. Even now, most of the world’s population observes a different religion. But you call it fair that your god supposedly expects people to pick the ‘right’ one amongst scores of contradictory beliefs with no evidence, then punishes them if they pick the wrong one (or none)? Doesn’t sound very ‘compassionate’ to me.

By just being a child of god I worshipped him and loved him. you dont have to phiscially go to church and sing hyms and songs and be able to phiscally read the bible to love GOD and thank him for all of the wonderful things that hes done for you!

god bless

A young one who has not reached the ‘age of accountability’ is innocent and Heaven-bound - they cannot yet discern right from wrong…hope this helps.

well, im not religious, however I study a lot of it, all types and from what I’ve learned, Jesus excepted everyone, even people who were against him he loved everyone and thats why people believe he is so great he hung out with lepers, sick people, people of the lower class and he loved people who didn’t believe in him

so from what I’ve learned, belief in him up to your personal choice but he’ll save you no matter what because he loves you no matter what

thats what I’ve learned from studying religion, I could be wrong though

yeah–children are innocent and because GOD created us he origionaly places it in us to love and worship him–it’s just when we grow up thats when we start to make our own decisions. And from my birth to the point that I could make my own decisions I have loved and worshiped him–and I will continue to for the rest of eternity!!

justsearching, who are you talking to? Your fellow Christians who have differing perspectives on salvation? That’s a fact, not a matter of opinion. It simply can’t be denied that there are multiple Christian perspectives regarding salvation.

Irrelevant to politics! Who cares what religious belief a politician has, as long as they act morally and are smart. Oh, and believing in God doesn’t mean you’d make a good President either. Bush who is “religious” killed how many people for no reason?

Addressing the subject of Heaven:

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and >> broad > many > narrow > few << there be that find it.

4/29/08: FINALLY, Barak ‘I can no more disown Rev. Wright than the black community’ Obama, has had a sudden change - people I know came to that very same conclusion (Wright is wrong) a very long time ago - just 48 hrs ago he was defending Rev. Wright - today the sudden change - some chickens have apparently come home to Roost !

One must call - ask for forgiveness and recieve Christ (Salvation) - not automatic: Romans 10:13, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” You may call it a ‘narrow view’, I call it what the Word of God states in many verses - remember in the book of Revelation at judgement day the ‘Book of Life’ is opened and only those names found in it will gain Heaven - not automatic.

Certainly the Bible doesn’t say you have to visit a church (which was not a building, but an assembly of believers in houses at the beginning of Christianity), but it does say you have to enter a relationship. The texts say “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved” not “thump a book and go to church.”

Since the question asks do you need to believe in Jesus, then answer is “yes”. The other stuff is purely catholic heresy and dogma attached to give them power.

rneal, Christian beliefs regarding salvation range from:

• universal salvation
• salvation by faith
• salvation by works
• gnostic internal salvation

My point was not to try to understand the scriptures, but rather, to point to the various scriptures Christians use to support their various positions.

My perspective that the scriptures are NOT a coherent single message is the only one that stands up to scrutiny. The Bible is the result of many authors over a period of ~1000 years, each adding to and modifying parts of it as he saw fit to promote his particular propaganda goal.

As much as I enjoy watching Christians duke it out, amblessed and orion, keep in mind that MOST Christians are not Biblical inerrantists.

Tim 2:3-5 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior: Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. “

…can you see why MANY Christians can read this, and understand it to mean what it says - that Jesus wants to save all men.

Universal salvation is supported by the Bible, just as select salvation is.

How God deals with people who,” through no fault of their own ever heard the gospel message” is up to Him. It’s the one’s who have heard and reject salvation that can and will be lost. Scripture says that narrow is the gate and few be there that find it that lead to life. Salvation is only the first step. A life of obedience and growth and fruit bearing are what makes a life lived well. The age of accountability is different for each person. It’s when a person KNOWINGLY does something they know is wrong. Telling a lie perhaps or stealing something. This by no means excuses what some would try to use to excuse sinful behavior under the guise of “I don’t think it’s a sin” .If the conscious choice is made to do something wrong then, you are then accountable. Further more, scripture has been translated in to almost every language known to man by now. Sure there might be some obscure places that haven’t yet, but a vast majority have a bible or literature in their own tongue so they too will have the choice as well.

obviously in the begenning of this nation it mattered whether or not a politician believed in God or not, because all the state constituions stated before a person could hold office they had to believe in a supreme being. The Bible is not confused about salvation it is clear. It is you who are confused because you don’t know how to rightly divide the word of God as the scripture tells us to do.

I’m no expert - I was just relating information - I’ll yield to your expertise on the matter.

Jesus answered this way:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Source. No I just got a kick out of her comment., But she does have a point. . . . to bad america doesn’t have a good choice of people running for president. . . . Guess us Christians will be outlaws in a few years. . .And Yes Toadaly I saw you attempt at political humor. . . .

Definitely what I believe:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What a stupid question ! Assuming there were a God,which there obviously isn’t, would he condemn to eternal damnation the poor sods who have never heard of the fictional Jesus Christ ? It is highly amusing to aetheists like myself to see that even in the 21st Century people will actually take all this religious superstitious mumbo-jumbo SERIOUSLY !Can they not think for themselves ?

Someones PERSONAL experience is that persons personal experience - you can’t say that’s absurd if that’s truely their experience/recollection/belief - it’s hers not yours - Is it really so horrible to admit that another person may be different from you ? - I don’t understand your intense desire to Bash unless it’s because she’s a Christian - that’s a GREAT thing !!…Take care !!

Disagree. Bible states that belief in Jesus is the only way.

I think it’s funny how the christain bible always seem to be changing or something was once missing and they “find” it. What about those new testiments? You can’t add on to the bible. Look at the Koran it hasnt changed once. I think Jesus was a person but even if he wasn’t the son of god his teachings were still there and it’s still something to live by. I don’t think you would go to hell over something like that. Maybe limbo but not hell.

I love GOD now for everything that he has ever done for me. I don’t realize how anybody could think that this world happened any other way than by our loving fater–GOD! And GOD has so much power that even the waves of the water and the mountains from the ground obey him :) god is sooo amazing and life wouldn’t be a life worth living without him!

amblessed: Logical fallacy. Just because “whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” doesn’t mean that those that don’t, aren’t.

Also, what significance does Obama’s worldview on religion have to anything?

You have to wonder why the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, all loving self sufficient creator of the universe is obsessed with what people believe. It’s almost like priests and others with a stake in spreading their religion came up with that idea.

I strongly disagree, the Jesus says “I am the way, the truth, the life, no one gets through to the Father except through Me.” and many other times throughout the Bible He states many answers along those lines, read your Word!

Toadaly I see the scripture is beyond you. . . .

livin, Jesus is also attributed with saying:

“When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to myself.” - John 12:32

“Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the Sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme.” - Mark 3:28

“ My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.” - 1 John 2:1-2

…and Paul with:

“Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.” - Rom. 5:18

“For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.” - Rom 11:32

…and so, this is why the doctrine of universal salvation is also help by many Bible believing Christians.

I disagree. Here is the truth: everyone needs GOD and JESUS and the HOLY GHOST!

Yes, that is true. I stand for many things but I don’t disguise myself. I don’t wear “christian outerwear” and hate, injustice, prejudice, racism, etc. as “underwear”.

rnealw, what makes you think that Obama has the brain of an ant?

From his official biography:

“He went on to earn his law degree from Harvard in 1991, where he became the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review.”

So ant brains can get law degrees from Harvard, eh?

gasmanobt3: Really? What about the hundreds of millions or billions of people who have lived and died after the death of Jesus, who, through accident of birth, never heard the “good news”? Are they all doomed to eternal damnation for the ‘sin’ of not being born in the right place at the right time?

amblessed: So then, isn’t the best path - the one way to guarantee salvation - to not tell anyone about christianity? That way, nobody would be damned. In this view, missionaries damn far more people than they save!

Salvation is a free gift. Christ died and rose again that every human being ever born afterwards would have the opportunity to accept Christ as the only way of salvation from their own choice. Scripture says that “ No man cometh to the Father except the Spirit draw him.” How is this done? Through the testimony of other Christians who, in love, not judgment, share their faith with others. It’s also done through the word of God. If we,all of us, took the time to just stop and listen, really listen, with an open heart God will reveal Himself in ways we’d never expect. Salvation was given so that ALL humanity has the chance to escape eternal seperation from God. God’s plan of salvation was and is for everyone, who chooses to accept the free gift.

Ann Coulter is your source? Are you kidding me?

I disagree. How else are you going to get salvation but through Jesus? I think it is necessary.

“Until you produce evidence, semi1900, your words that they weren’t written in his lifetime or by his contemporaries and mine that they were are of equal weight. “

Actually, the burden of proof is on those who say Jesus exists. I don’t need proof that he didn’t.

All four Gospels were written decades after Jesus is said to have lived. I suggest you read Stephen Harris’ book, “Understanding the Bible”. He explains all about the earliest versions of the Gospels, and that they were all dated between 65 AD (Mark and around 110 AD (John).

Yes, I agree people should research this. And if they do, they’ll find that Josephus is the only person outside the Gospels who mentions Jesus by name, and as I said his records were changed by Christians hoping to produce evidence of Jesus’ existence. Why would early Christians need to fabricate historical texts? Only if they were desperate to prove skeptics wrong. Research Louis Feldman’s work on Josephus Testimonium, and you’ll come to understand how Josephus’ writings were corrupted by the Christians.

To say that thousands of copies of the NT were in circulation within100 years of the originals is a false statement. In reality, there were thousands of Gospels and other writings in circulation, with different Christian communities viewing different books as authoritative. It wasn’t until the late 4th century AD that the New Testament, the OT, and the Apocrypha were compiled by church elders. So for nearly 400 years, Christians didn’t even have a Bible and disagreed about which books were valid.

“There are more references to Jesus than you mention.”

I do find it interesting that you challenge me to produce evidence, yet fail to produce any yourself to back up this statement. In reality, there are not.

“ There is more documentary evidence for the New Testament than any other work of ancient literature by far”

Not a single one of the Gospels was written within Jesus lifetime or by any of his contemporaries. The Gospels themselves contradict each other in several places, most notably the account of Jesus resurrection. One can clearly see how the authors added more to the story through time, from Mark through John.

Outside of the Gospels, the only direct reference to Jesus is in the works of Josephus Flavius, and his text has been tampered with by Christian writers to the point where it’s impossible to tell exactly what he originally said about Jesus. All other references are very non-specific and offer no substantive proof of Jesus existence.

Despite the apparent importance of his trial, we have not a single Roman legal record (their legal records number in the tens of thousands), not a single Jewish record, and no mention at all of his ministries, his miracles, his death, or his resurrection from any of his contemporaries. Most of the knowledge about him came purely through hearsay.

Also, you’re wrong about the literary proof. We actually have more proof that Hercules and King Aurthur of Camelot existed than we do Jesus. There is also more proof that Quetzalcoatl, an Aztec god, existed, if you go by religious writings alone.

The historicity of Jesus has been challenged many times, and has yet to be proven fact.

DAMN THAT OBAMA - HE DOESN’T WANT TO CONDEMN US ALL TO HELL!

GREENSBORO, N.C. - Senator Barack Obama has told an audience that although he believes Christ died for his sins, those who reject that teaching can also be children of God. During a campaign stop yesterday in Greensboro, North Carolina, Senator Obama told the audience that he believes he “can have everlasting life” because Jesus Christ died for his sins. But he then told a questioner that he believes Jews and Muslims who live moral lives are just as much “children of God” as he is. Obama clearly invokes core Christian principles and beliefs, from original sin to God’s grace. “Perfection” was his refrain – he invoked the word nine times – yet he did not use it to describe a teleological achievement, but rather a continuous mission of going on to perfection. Salvation, in this view, is an ongoing process, not an outcome; a constant exercise of choice rather than a final destination. Known as “Christian perfectionism,” this idea is a cornerstone to the theology of John Wesley, a leader of the Methodist movement. Interestingly, the most powerful Methodist today – George W. Bush – appears to profess a very different view of perfection, one that involves accomplishing specific goals based on knowledge about God’s plan for the world: The cause we serve is right, because it is the cause of all mankind. The momentum of freedom in our world is unmistakable–and it is not carried forward by our power alone. We can trust in that greater power who guides the unfolding of the years. And in all that is to come, we can know that His purposes are just and true. Bush professes a theology of certainty: God’s will can be known — indeed, it has been revealed to us — and our task on earth is to realize it. By contrast, Obama offers a theology grounded in a process, not an outcome: to work out salvation with fear and trembling.

BUSH WOULD BE FINE WITH US ALL BURNING, AS LONG AS HE AND HIS BUDDIES SUPPLIED THE FUEL!

John 12:47 NIV “As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.

To minthegap: I never said that jesus wasn’t the way- he is the only way and I have ALWAYS felt that way! That scripture John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. is what I live my life by and I always have. Jesus is the only wayyy!

and to leogee

God is a very merciful GOD! If there are people out there who have absolutly NEVER in there entire lives (like orphans or people in africa or even babies that die( becuase technically god puts it in all of us to love him as a child- the world/ how we are raised changes some of our minds)) who havne’t had opportunnity to know that there was a god or a higher power are fine! god loves them- and they are free. Its just those that know there is a god or know of a god (this wesite being an example) that don’t follow him are in trouble!

Matthew 16:26 NIV What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?

Mark 16:15 NIV He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

John 3:17 NIV For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

John 3:16 NIV “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 8:12 NIV [The Validity of Jesus’ Testimony] When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

John 14:27 NIV Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

Romans 10:18 NIV But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”

god bless

Until you produce evidence, semi1900, your words that they weren’t written in his lifetime or by his contemporaries and mine that they were are of equal weight. Internal document evidence, including statements about the politics of the time, physical locations, and eyewitness testimony lend more weight to contemporary authorship.

I would suggest that anyone researching this don’t just listen to me or semi1900, however. Do some research on both points of view. Take a look at the evidence itself and don’t rely on some dude on a message board to be the oracle of all truth.

There are more references to Jesus than you mention. There was no importance to His trial from a Roman perspective. Pilate himself washed his hands of the deal and told the Jews to take care of it.

I’m not wrong on literary proof. I stated Socrates and Plato. There are 5600 copies of the New Testament, and our copies are within 100 years of the originals.

As for whether there should be independent Jewish recording, you’ll recall that Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70, and that this also included all of the genealogical information not recorded in the Bible with it. The Bible contains historical records for the Jews.

As far as I’m aware, it’s exactly the opposite of what you say. The historicity and even the resurrection of Jesus has been challenged may times and has yet to have been found to be false. In fact, even many that are skeptics on the Bible do not doubt the presence of the historical Jesus.

that is what I’ve been taught and understand - here’s how a Bible scholar put it: Yes, I believe they go to Heaven. The only reason that God damns some people is that because they are sinful. Jesus Christ came to save us from that inevitable sinfulness. Babies, on the other hand, cannot sin. They don’t have the knowledge of the law.

“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful” (Romans 7:7-13).

In this way, babies cannot sin. God will not damn the one who did not even know sin, nor even have an opportunity to sin! Therefore, babies are saved.

Hope this helps !!

disagree. Belief in jesus christ is the only way. Its not about how many people you help how many times you go to church (although god loves that we publicly display our love for him) or if you have a reliegion at all. I have been a believer since the day I was born but I dont believe in religion. I dont believe that its about reliegion. honestly though,I think the religion aspect of it is what gets in the way many times, for many people. It sould be about following and searving Christ. period.I put a lot of the blame on the catlolic church and other ‘christians’ who try to shove a bible down the throat of everyone they meet. resently, (as well as histoically) Christianity has become just a bunch of empty rituals and meaningless words, people, even other blievers, seem to have lost sight of what it means to be a CHRISTian. The only thing that matters is you and god in your life!!! Your only purpose of living is to spread the word of god. Salvation is all about believeing in The trinity and what jesus did for oyu. God sent his only son to die a PAINFUL death on the cross so that everytime you sinned—all you had to do is ask! By telling everyone this good news you have bought yourself a pass into eternity so we can praise jesus and GOD for the rest of our entire lives in paradise for what they have done for us!!! May GOD bless you! I cant imagine living a life where I didnt have someone to place everysingle one of my problems on—god asked us to. Not because he wanted that to happen to his son or that jesus wanted to do it —but becuase he asked us to–and jesus refused to let sin get his way. Jesus was so scared about his crusifiction that while praying to GOD in the garden he was sweating blood. just imagine? I thinka dn I cry every second of every day for what jesus did for me. A crown of thorns was placed upon his head and it was hit and beaten into his fragile skull. He was whiped with a cat of nine tails. In history it says during a crusifiction this is where most to all the men died…not jesus. After his flesh was ripped and torn he carried HIS CROSS YOUR CROSS MY CROSS and he was nailed in both wrists and he hung there for 6 hours forgiving eacha dn everyone of us for what we did to him…FORGIVING FORGIVING! and at the 6th hour he died. the good news is is that an earthquake occured and EVERYBODY knew what they had done realizing that they had just killed-NO-crucified the SON of GOD. The good thing is that we just have to ask to god a lie is as bad as mrdering someone—its when we dont try and we dont repent is when we get into balck waters. Jesus rose from the dead 3 days later!!! And now we have a choice…its time.

god bless

From a Christian perspective, there is no consensus. The Bible seems to be confused on this point as well:

Salvation is just for Jews? Luke 1:69 “He has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David”

Salvation for all? Luke 3:6 “And all mankind will see God’s salvation.”

…oh wait, now it’s just for those who believe, they can be Jews or gentiles: Romans 1:16 “I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.”

…scratch that, it’s for everyone again: Titus 2:11 “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.”

…no, just for those who obey him: Hebrews 5:9 “and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him”

…nevermind, salvation is just for god himself (and for the lamb, who apparently is not also god since he is mentioned separately)! Revelation 7:10 “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

Yep, it’s just for god: Revelation 19:1 “”Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,”

I disagree: Such prejudice is largely based on the following verse from the New Testament ergo eimi ha hodos kai ha alatheia kai ha zoa; oudeis erketai pros ton patera ei ma di emou “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father expect through me.” (Matt. 14:6) However, this is a rather slender peg on which to hang one’s religious intolerance. Especially since the original Greek renders the verse a bit differently than cited above- although the above translation is the one you would probably find in the Bible. The Greek word erketai is extremely present tense. So, rather than “comes” as the word is rendered above, it would more accurately be “can presently come.” This, of course, changes the whole meaning. Jesus is actually saying, “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one can presently come to the Father except through me.” Thus, Christian exclusivity becomes absurd. Unlike the interpretations pushed upon us by Bible-thumpers- who say that surrender to Jesus is the only way, for all time-Jesus simply said that he was the way presently, at that time, in Palestine 2,000 years ago. Says Dr. Boyd Daniels of The American Bible Society, “Oh, yes. The word erketai is definitely the present tense form of the verb. Jesus was speaking to his contemporaries.”