If God is Perfect...

I agree with the question

even with free will people are still somtimes physically ugly and they can be as nice as they want but phsyically there not perfect

“Is living on earth such a punishment? I dont really think so.”

Living on earth isn’t the punishment - eternal torment in hell due to ‘original sin’ supposedly is.

“if you killed somebody would we blame the murder on your mom? no. same thing applies here.”

And yet god, apparrently, blames and punishes everyone for all time because Eve ate an apple? What was that you were saying about accountability again?

TO:jester_x FIRST OF ALL, GOD WAS NOT MAN MADE, GET THAT THROUGH your HEAD…GOD IS THE RULER OF ALL…NOBODY MADE HIM, NOBODY CREATED HIM, GOD IS JUST THERE. don’t THINK THAT JUST BECAUSE HIS SON WAS MAN MADE, AND WE WERE MAN MADE, GOD WAS…BECAUSE HE SURE ENOUGH WASN’T…OKAY???

yes but still, the overall decession is made by us

he is responsible for the people, not the result. the people are responsible for the result, not God.

In a Christian sense, God is perfect. Absolute perfection. He gave humans the right to have free-thought.

God created Adam and Eve, he allowed them choices, free-thought. Adam and Eve chose to be impure, imperfect. All human life after Adam and Eve is born, imperfect.

As you said, it is an independant decesion. However, it is dertimined by us. What makes you think that science has not proven that?

Research based on studies showing the contrary.

Yes I am explaining my belief, im trying to tell you but you just dont understand so sorry for that.

I do understand. But it’s circular logic. That’s my point.

You do realize that many Christians do not believe in free will, or even the concept of the soul?

Everything is perfect, though we don’t often see it as that way. I believe that when something bad happens we all question how God could let it happen, but in his wisdom, he knows that if we perceived everything as perfect, we could not possibly appreciate everything that is good in the world. …In other words, we may question why someone is born handicapped, for instance. I think just maybe such people are angels sent here to make the rest of us appreciate what we have; such as good health.

Of course, my answer is much longer, but that sums it up…

“I think just maybe such people are angels sent here to make the rest of us appreciate what we have; such as good health.”

I don’t think I’d want anything to do with a god that maims people, and allows them to be tortured, mistreated, and killed, just to show the rest of us “how good we have it”. Not to mention that most people throughout history have lived tragically short and scarred lives.

How do you know your grand purpose in life isn’t to serve as an example for someone else?

kingofpop- there is such thing as free will. our actions and thoughts may be a result of the brain, but thats because we CHOSE to think like that and do something. because of the brain, we have the opportunity to make a CHOICE, therefore resuliting back to free will. he gave us the opportunity to make choices so he wouldnt be completely ruling us. the only reason there are bad things in the world is because of all of the people, making bad decesions, not God.

Free will doesn’t exist. Our decisions and actions are the result of our nervous system, mainly the brain. It processes more data than we could ever be consciously aware of; thoughts, emotions, etc. are all the result of chemical reactions. But free will is a silly concept even without scientific data to refute it.

As for God, no one has logically explained how God would not be morally culpable for the “evil” actions of his creation.

It’s also painfully obvious to anyone who reads the Old Testament that the Biblical god is not perfect.

Do you people research this stuff or make it up as you go along?

I’m not a Christian, and never claimed that I was; but I have enough education to discuss topics such as these with thought.

God didn’t condemn anyone, to anything. He created two perfect beings. Adam and Eve were created out of perfection, in the image of God. He gave them the right to do anything, but eat the apple from the tree. God had nothing to do with them eating the apple.

God created perfection. Humans destroyed it.

God created Jesus. Humans destroyed him.

Tell me now, who is vengeful and full of hate?

“He’s perfect, it’s not possible for him to create imperfection.”

I don’t see how that follows. Any omnipotent being can do whatever the heck he/she/it wants, perfect or not.

A better question is, why would any omnipotent, omniscient being create imperfect beings, knowing full well ahead of time what they’ll do (he’s omniscient, remember), then punish them (eternally!) for doing it?

Judgement Day you’ll be able to ask Him yourself - no doubt, He’ll give an account and so will all of us - it’s ok to question anything but quite another to ignore truth and reject for all eternity, Jesus Christ - I too am entitled to my beliefs/faith/opinion - a big difference, I would never describe your answer as ‘mindless ramblings’ or silly or revert to name-calling…Take care !!

okay, since this arguement is obviously going nowhere, lets just leave it at this: everybody has their own beliefs, and can choose to believe whatever they want. ok?

I think mandyloo is rite, no doubt about it

I’m probably not the “person” to whom you’re addressing this question, because I don’t read the bible, or any other religious manual that was written by man, literally. But I’ll answer it this way. I don’t know if my deity is omnipotent - but I’ll tell you this if he snapped his fingers and popped out a universe, he’s got my attention on the power scale, and he’s way ahead of whoever is #3 in the universe. And that makes more sense to me than nothing being out there for an eternity and suddenly something went pop and we got ourselves a universe, and then a bunch of chemicals got sloshed together and out. comes a cute single cell out of the Hasty Bake Oven that I call grandma?

He may not be all knowing, did he create Satan, did he or man create sin? Why is man imperfect? Don’t know.

I do know My deity has a sense of humor. And I do think we have free will to decide our own fate in this life. He has given me what I asked for on occasion sometimes with hilarious results. When I got what I needed instead of what I asked for, things have turned out very well. And what’s up with the platypus?

I don’t know why there is torment and suffering in the world, I try to do my part to help alleviate it. Maybe it is a test for the rest of us. Don’t know, I’m not on his board of advisers so he hasn’t clued me in. And by the way, my deity isn’t going to send all those folks who never heard of “my” God, to hell. Doesn’t compute to me. And where is heaven and where has he tucked away hell? Different dimension, different plane of existence? And the more I’ve learned, the more I find there is so much I don’t know, that neither most religions nor science can explain for me.

Over the years I’ve lived, I’ve asked those and hundreds of other similar questions myself. Having a deity intervene makes more sense to me than all science and many religions have to offer as answers, or the lack thereof, on the interesting ones especially, why are we here? How did all this begin?

*Kish “FIRST OF ALL, GOD WAS NOT MAN MADE, GET THAT THROUGH your HEAD” 1st off, all caps is not intimidating at all, what it says to me is “Hey look everybody, now we’re dealing with a kindergardener who doesn’t know how to turn off caps” 2nd of all, where’s your proof? The bible doesn’t count, the bible was man made.

beautiful234

"Yes I am explaining my belief, im trying to tell you "
Then you're wither doing an extremely lousy Job of it or your beliefs are contradicting & circular, which should be hinting to something.
You keep saying free will, free will, that is not explaining a d@mn thing. If I knew my child was going to be a mass murder I wouldn't have the child, I'ld ensure myself a miscarriage.
It's implied God is all knowing, meaning he knows everything, meaning he does not have to look forward into the future he ALREADY knows what's going to happen
Again, if God is perfect & created 2 perfect beings, they would not of made the mistake of eaten the apple. 
& God DID make good & evil
“I form the light, and create darkness: 

I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” ~*~Isaiah 45:7 (also Lam3:38)

Here's a question, God is forgiving right? The why didn't he forgive Adam & Eve in the Beginning to prevent all this? Maybe because he's not all loving. 

“The Lord is a man of War!” ~*~Exodus 15:3

You do realize the idea of a loving & forgiving God is almost as new as the new age religion Wicca(though their roots are more ancient than any of the biblical religion). The bible reflects a vain & benevolent God. He has as much human characteristics as the roman Gods. 
Your God was Indeed man made. The idea of 1 God was formed when an Egyptian guy combined all the Gods & Goddesses(of Egypt) & titled it the one true God. 
"If God was manmade, then who made him???"
You're Joking right?
Evolution. I doubt that we all came from a puddle or whatever in the beginning times of earth. The substance required for life has been found on comments that enter the atmosphere which are evidence that life was not born on earth. There's more evidence backing up the claims that Aliens molded humanity than there is fro the biblical God, which is pretty sad.

thats because we CHOSE to think like that and do something. because of the brain, we have the opportunity to make a CHOICE, therefore resuliting back to free will.

I’m afraid that doesn’t make any sense, nor is it consistent with what we know about the brain. The act of making a “choice” is, itself, a neural activity that involves much more than just your conscious mind. Did you know research has shown that your brain is often preparing you to do something before you are even aware of the intention to do it? The majority of brain activity is subconscious, even during a seemingly conscious decision. Our thoughts and actions are determined by quite a bit more than we think.

he gave us the opportunity to make choices so he wouldnt be completely ruling us. the only reason there are bad things in the world is because of all of the people, making bad decesions, not God.

If God created humans and gave them the ability to make “choices” knowing they could choose to do evil and wanting them to have that choice, how is he not responsible for the result? If God created humans, who then commit acts of evil, and God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent but chooses not to stop that evil, how is he not responsible for the result?

jasper_x: I know were man-made. people are born without a religious bone in their body, but then eventually they are taught and naturally believe in it.

the13th: im not saying hes testing us omg like I said a million times already its free will he gives us the power to do what we want hes letting us live freely and no I did not condrict myself =P

god did not make sin satan made sin he is a fallen angel. just because god made satan doesnt mean he made sin. if you killed somebody would we blame the murder on your mom? no. same thing applies here.

satan CAN tempt man thats how he got adam and eve to eat the apple from the tree. satan does not ask for god’s permission to do anything hes a fallen angel. did he ask permission to become the devil? no. did he ask permission to provoke adam and eve to eat the apple? again no. so on and so forth…serioulsy where do you get all this bs

god doesnt look into the future or anything I suppose he could but he doesnt. and yes, again with the FREE WILL!!! you hate that word dont you muahaha.

adam and eve were made perfect, but also kinda stupid, in a sense. they didnt know right from wrong, so it really isnt their fault. its satains. he told them it was good, and all they know was good. so they ate it.

God created everything in the BEGINNING, and left us to do the rest. he did not creat sin, evil, chaos, every odd & end as you put it. that is the fault of the people. the fruit may have been a test, but he didnt know what the result would be. he wanted to just play it out. he was not toying. God claims he is responsible for the devil, because he created him. once satain was on his own, he created evil, not God. God WAS (note past tense) responsible for the devil, but he gave the devil along with every other angel, free will.

beautiful234-“”jasper_x: I know were man-made. people are born without a religious bone in their body, but then eventually they are taught and naturally believe in it.””

myname is Jester_x. if you teach someone something thats not natural because if it was natural you wouldn’t have to be taught. Like breathing. if people naturaly believeed in God and the bible then we wouldn’t be having this conversation. That says nothing about pagans, witches, and homosexuals not being natural.

“god did not make sin satan made sin he is a fallen angel. just because god made satan doesnt mean he made sin. if you killed somebody would we blame the murder on your mom? “”

God knew what Satan would do according to the story. If my mom knew I was going to kill someone she would be partly responsable.

satan does not ask for god’s permission to do anything hes a fallen angel

You need to read you bible better. Satan has to have premission before he can do anything. ITS IN THE BIBLE

kisharenee2014- “”TO:jester_x FIRST OF ALL, GOD WAS NOT MAN MADE, GET THAT THROUGH your HEAD…GOD IS THE RULER OF ALL…NOBODY MADE HIM, NOBODY CREATED HIM, GOD IS JUST THERE. don’t THINK THAT JUST BECAUSE HIS SON WAS MAN MADE, AND WE WERE MAN MADE, GOD WAS…BECAUSE HE SURE ENOUGH WASN’T…OKAY???””

So you believe. I DO believe God was man made. “God was just there” thats a circular tech. in other words “dont question just believe” I dont think his son was human cause I dont believe hes real at all. I have just as much right to believe this as you do the contrary. the diffrence is you have no facts to back up your claim. No the bible is not fact

Free will implies a concious, independant decesion that is not determined by anything else. Science has shown us there is no such thing

As you said, it is an independant decesion. However, it is dertimined by us. What makes you think that science has not proven that?

Your not exactly explaining your belief, your just explaining it over and over

Yes I am explaining my belief, im trying to tell you but you just dont understand so sorry for that.

if you teach something thats not natural because if it was natural it wouldnt have been taught

Im not saying that you know God naturally. Im saying you have to be taught in order to learn about Him.

satan has to have permission before he can do anything*

tell me where it says that in the bible and ill look it up.

And yet god, apparently, blames and punishes everyone for all time because Eve at an apple

Is living on earth such a punishment? I dont really think so. Compared to what could have been it may not be as good but still…its better than what he could have done. Plus, living on earth is not forever. Its temperaory.

I DO believe God was manmade

If God was manmade, then who made him???

-_- ENOUGH with the free will BS Yes, he may of very well gave us free will. How do you know we’re truly free? Things have been predicted 1000’s of years before they occurred, how do we know they’re not a carved path that’s already been laid out before us? How can we be sure we’re truly free? &, incase you forgot, God created EVERYTHING meaning everything in existence would have t be perfect, for imperfection is impassable to be created for something that is perfect.

How could God not of had anything to do with the apple tree, how could god not have anything to do with dieses, how could he not have anything to do with still borns, etc. Again, I repeat, God created EVERYTHING right?

He’s perfect, all knowing & all powerful. How can the things he create not be perfect, especially those created in his image? Perhaps he wanted us to be this way. Gay, witch, pagan, Muslim, etc, is how he wanted us. Maybe it’s perfect in his eyes, in his thoughts, that’s how he wanted us. So even though we may not see it as perfect, it would have to be in some deranged way to the biblical god, because he is perfect, it is impassable to create something that is not perfect, that can’t make perfect choices(etc), no matter how malicious it may seem to us.

Ok 4 things

1. To babygirl. You said we should not question God. Why not. If he is such a powerful being he would have no prob answering. This is a tactic of circular reasoning. They cant find an answer so they cover it with this don’t question God thing

To beautiful. You said gays pagans witches ect… Were man made. I suppose your not any of thoses so how would you know if we are born that way or not. Wouldn’t it make more sense to ask a homosexual, witch, pagan, ect…

3. As for free will. The bible says 3 things. God knows all. He’s never wrong. And we have free will. But wait if he knows all than he knows everything we are going to do long before we do it. And if he is never wrong then we have no choice to change any decision. So who then do we have free will.

And drum roll please. 4. The reason for these little paradoxes in the bible is simple. The bible and God are both man made. This is the only logical explanation for this and all other paradoxes in christianity.

-_- ENOUGH with the free will BS Yes, he may of very well gave us free will. How do you know we’re truly free? Things have been predicted 1000’s of years before they occurred, how do we know they’re not a carved path that’s already been laid out before us? How can we be sure we’re truly free? &, incase you forgot, God created EVERYTHING meaning everything in existence would have t be perfect, for imperfection is impassable to be created for something that is perfect.

How could God not of had anything to do with the apple tree, how could god not have anything to do with dieses, how could he not have anything to do with still borns, etc. Again, I repeat, God created EVERYTHING right?

He’s perfect, all knowing & all powerful. How can the things he create not be perfect, especially those created in his image? Perhaps he wanted us to be this way. Gay, witch, pagan, Muslim, etc, is how he wanted us. Maybe it’s perfect in his eyes, in his thoughts, that’s how he wanted us. So even though we may not see it as perfect, it would have to be in some deranged way to the biblical god, because he is perfect, it is impassable to create something that is not perfect, that can’t make perfect choices(etc), no matter how malicious it may seem to us.

Science doesn’t claim something came from nothing, things have always been here. What doesn’t make since to me is why would there only be one God? Perhaps it’s a race of super beings(let’s call it that do to lack of a better name) that are just referred to as God. Maybe it truly was aliens that molded(not made, but sculpted) the human race, supposedly our evolution process was quicker than average. & ever 3500 years the plannet beyound pluto comes close enough that if there were any life that they may land or somethings. There’s anciet stone tablets that portray the plannets color & a drawing of an alien species, weird. I don’t believe aliens molded us, but you never know. Like I said, there’s more evadinece supporting that than God though.

I don't believe in the big bang either, rather the claps theory. Two parallel universes collided & made this one, the clumps of matter being made from the ripples.

I’m not going to make this long because it doesn’t need to be.

When God created the earth everything was perfect. Though this time God had also cast satan out of heaven because he was trying to overcome the power of God. Thats what put temptation on earth.

God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of good and evil or they would be cast out of the Garden of Eden.

Satan came in the form of a snake and tempted them saying that God wanted all the power for himself and if they ate of the tree they would also have that power. (this is initially why a snake has no legs- because it was also punished for its wrong doings)

They did…BOOOM! thats where sin came into the world. They tried to hide from GOD they couldn’t. God told them that it wouldn’t be a perfect world if they ate from it and HUMANS made that choice!

That wasn’t GOD.

God is good all the time and all the time God is good.

*I DO believe God was manmade

If God was manmade, then who made him???

You’re taking that statement too literally…

Jester believes that God DOES NOT EXIST. Meaning the CONCEPT of god(s) in general was conceived BY MANKIND, as a way of explaining the unexplainable.

I think is ridiculous that a perfect God, would condem humanity because of two people who were around before any of us.

If that’s your idea of a God, it’s vengeful and filled with hate.

yes but still, the overall decession is made by us

Free will implies a conscious, independent decision that is not determined by anything else. Science has shown us there is no such thing.

he is responsible for the people, not the result. the people are responsible for the result, not God.

You’re not actually explaining your belief, you’re just repeating it over and over. So, I have to repeat the question: how is God not responsible, if he’s the one who created people, endowed them with their decision-making process, and knew prior to doing so that they could and would do evil? Is God limited by our “choices” and actions? If so, how could he be God?

god gives you the gift of FREE WILL. in the beginning, when adam and eve were created, he made them knowing only good, and no evil. he made them obey only one rule, and telling them if they broke it, they would be banned and everybody would know evil. so they broke that rule, because of temptation. and because we are decendents of adam and eve, we are cursed with this knowledge, until the one day he comes back to earth. and it is the peoples’ fault that people are constantly being killed, not God’s. it’s our choices, not God’s. as for disease, that is naturally caused by nature. NOT God.

and as to mandyloo, believe in what you wish, but do not criticize those who believe in God. I think that people with THAT religion is one filled with one of vengence and hate.

note I said the religion is filled with vengence and hate, not necessiarilly the people. =]

“God looks for those who will willingly follow him… just like Abraham did. “

In the story, God told Abraham to kill his son on an altar as a test of fidelity. In modern times, we would call such a being a psychopath.

Anyway, the statement that every person is given the choice to follow self, Satan, or God requires further explanation, considering there are cultures that have no concept of following any of the three.

God looks for those who will willingly follow him… just like Abraham did.

If we love him and serve him, in the midst of the unbelief that is here, and all the temptations, etc. then, it stands to reason, that we would be fit candidates for his new earth.

When God begins to draw someone by the power of his spirit, their walk with him, has just begun.

Earth is a training ground for heaven.

In this place, we are tested… to see what is within us.

Evil is present… to see if we will be obedient.

We are given a choice… to follow self, (humanism) Satan or God.

kcblayer: You can’t have it both ways. If your god is omniscient, he knew exactly what would happen, satan, adam, eve, apple and all. And knowing exactly what would come about, he set things in motion and then punished the puppets he’d made for their actions?

And before you invoke the ‘free will’ defense, that only works if your god doesn’t know what you’re going to do - and how powerful is he if he can’t even know that?

God didn’t condemn anyone, to anything. He created two perfect beings. Adam and Eve were created out of perfection, in the image of God. He gave them the right to do anything, but eat the apple from the tree. God had nothing to do with them eating the apple.

You use the term ‘perfect’ far too casually. You say God is ‘perfect’ meaning he is without flaw or error. If Adam and Eve were ‘perfect’ …then they too would be without flaw or error, meaning they would’ve NEVER made a mistake to begin with.

And there’s NOTHING fair or loving, about making all of humanity pay for the mistakes of one or two individuals…

the only living things before man were god and his angles…he doesnt need to test us its not a test its FREE WILL. duh

it says what he wanted in the bible, his words EXACTLY. there are also the ten commandments… God’s true name is just “God”. It’s what Jesus called him and what he calls himself. others worship other God’s because of what they believe in and what they have been taught. now as to the people who started it, it may have just been jealousy.

I think it’s silly that Christians believe in a religion that you shouldn’t question. Why do we have brains and logical thinking if we aren’t to question things.

God, if there is one (which I dont believe their is) is not perfect. He makes people with defomaties, he makes people with crippling diseases, people lose their babies and children, their is pain, suffering, child molesters, murders rapist.. How can you say God made this people, yet he’s perfect?

-_- I meant every living thing, everything before man made obviously & why would he need to test us if he’s all knowing? Seems more like he wanted a reason to

How would you know what God wanted, you’re not God, Who are you to judge! & Who knows god’s true name, so they could really be worshipping him. & How could they be worshipping other Gods if only one exists?

nobody knows preciesly WHEN he will come back. also God did NOT create everything, he created the materials that we needed to make things that WE could create, not him. like I said before, FREE WILL.

he created the apple tree (tree of knowledge) to see if his creations would decieve him, and they did.

things may have been created in his image, but not an exact repleca, therefore, obviously, we are not perfect.

gay, witch, pagan, muslim, etc,. were all created by people, not by him. and no, he doesnt want us to believe in other Gods. but since he promised to give us free will, he can do nothing about it, because he doesnt break promises. and one day, he will make us all perfect. in a way, it is his way of revenge, I suppose, but in the end we will all be perfect.

But he made evil. so wouldn’t of it been his own fault? He could of chose not to make evil.

Though this time God had also cast satan out of heaven because he was trying to overcome the power of God. Thats what put temptation on earth.

Once again, I advise you to read the Old Testament. OT writers did not see Satan as a fallen angel; he was, in fact, an angel who did God’s dirty work, and was considered a member of the heavenly court during that period. Many examples of this, the best one is Job.

The serpent referred to in the “Fall of Man” in Genesis…is not Satan. Any real analysis of the text will reveal this. But it’s a moot point. That story is symbolic; it’s not an account of an actual event. Do you really think there was a tree with fruit that could provide sudden knowledge of evil? No. It’s allegorical. There was no Adam, no Eve, no tree, no Garden, etc. It’s amazing how many people these days actually think this is a true story, when even people back then knew it wasn’t. We’re supposed to be smarter than they were!

THANK YOU JESTER_X!!!

“the only living things before man were god and his angles…he doesnt need to test us its not a test its FREE WILL. duh” you just contradicted yourself If he KNEW everything about us why would he NEED to test us, he ALREADY KNOWS, DUH!!!(smart @$$) He’s not testing if he already knows! so it’s condemnation!

kcblayer, GOD MADE SATAN thus God made sin & the orginal Jews(long before Christians) didn’t believe in the devil, it was ALL GOD. God also claims it all being him in the bible, look it up because I don’t feel like quoting right now. God made light & dark, good & evil “I the lord do all these things”. Also, Satan can not tempt man, can not harm or do anything to man without GOD’S permission. He basically did GOD’s dirty work.

“don’t see how that follows. Any omnipotent being can do whatever the heck he/she/it wants, perfect or not.”

I know, but you don’t grasp what I’m saying here. A perfect being couldn’t would have to make something with flaws deliberately, meaning they meant to make it with flaws, thus it’s just right it’s the way they wanted it, it’s perfect(twisted, but try to follow). You’ve also brought up some interesting points arachnid

“kcblayer: You can’t have it both ways. If your god is omniscient, he knew exactly what would happen, satan, adam, eve, apple and all. And knowing exactly what would come about, he set things in motion and then punished the puppets he’d made for their actions?

And before you invoke the ‘free will’ defense, that only works if your god doesn’t know what you’re going to do - and how powerful is he if he can’t even know that?” sounds alarm YES!!!THANK YOU!!! Someone who finally figured that part outhugs Inless Your all knowing God was Drunk & had a hang over from hell(that he had to of created when he was drunk), it doesn’t work!(I need to lay of the sugar)

Oh, & FYI, the serpent in some biblically countries is actually considered Lilith(NOT SATAN) according to myth, but it’s not accepted by all(look it up before you jump my case).

*Silverwings…wth have you been smoking??? How is that suppose to answer anything??? holy crap chick, your determined to waste people’s time aren’t you? Again I ask, wth is the point of testing if you already know what’s going to happen? Why did he even create us if he knew we would disobey? God must be very malicious(least that’s how YOU are making him out to be).

“Adam and Eve were created out of perfection” Question, if Adam & Eve were made perfect then why did they make a mistake? If they were perfect they wouldn’t of! So God made them with flaw knowing they would screw up? Cruel!

If people truly believe that God created EVERYTHING then that means he created EVERYTHING, sin, evil, chaos, every odd & end. He created Satan, he created the fruit that was forbidden. people claim it was to test Adam & Eve, but, again, if he already knew the result then it could not be testing, just toying. God himself claims that he is responsible for both good AND evil.

first, the bible is the true inspired words of God penned by people like mark (old testament). second, what chapter and verse mentions an apple? third, Eve sinned against God. i could go on but you wouldnt read it for yourself and learn anyway! You do not believe in allmighty God. You do not believe God gave his own words which make up the bible. So, forget it, YOUR NOT WORTH THE EFFORT