Hateful no christian!!!

I don’t approve of god disapproving of homosexuals. I don’t believe that homosexuality is a sin, or in sin it self. I do not think it is fine to go along with the teachings of the Church. In the past it led to several conflicts, and I think it’s just asking for trouble.

Does homosexuality harm or upset you in some way? Why should you care what gender a person is happy and comfortable with? ‘Cause some dope wrote in a book and other dopes believed it? Not everyone shares your religious beliefs. It’s sad that the US doesn’t grant full rights to homosexuals.

dvdysljvb: “Just like science has evidence proving that there are people prone to (stealing…)Every sin there is you can justify and glorify “

Justify and glorify? Wrong choice of words? If anything you can rationalize, more evidence that Christianity is a spoof, prove that there’s no reason that Satan exists or that freewill does(although not sure how freewill does exist when god is omniscient) Yes there are sociopaths, there is evidence that criminals have less control over their impulses, and people do become addicted to certain things. These are acts of impulse and aswell mental problems. I do believe that people can learn to overcome this, and that the problem can be corrected. However comparing it to homosexuality is ridiculous, because there’s no point in correcting it. Homosexuality is not a mental problem, it’s not violating any laws or anyone elses rights. How would you feel if someone tried to get you to overcome being a heterosexual for homosexuality?

“If this country wasn’t so focused on self gratification and doing what feels good”

Speaking of irony. Statistical studies show that countries like the US with higher percentage of religiosity have the most problems.

Homosexuality is a part of nature, if it wasn’t it wouldn’t exist in humans or in natue. There is a species of lizard that is entirly female, unfortunately I’m not familiar with the evolution. If we share DNA information perhaps, for example, with a common ancestor we shared with this lizard, the genes wouldn’t know that same sex reproduction is impossible for us. But what they might know is that if for some reason heterosexual form of mating wasn’t available, perhaps it would be possible for same sex reproduction.

Of course this is only my thought. What’s obvious is that homosexuality is genetic and developmental, and I’m generalizing. When I say genetic I don’t mean a specific gene, but more of a person’s genetic make-up.

nlocnil: I don’t approve of god disapproving of homosexuals. I don’t believe that homosexuality is a sin, or in sin it self. I do not think it is fine to go along with the teachings of the Church. In the past it led to several conflicts, and I think it’s just asking for trouble.

First, I seriously doubt that God cares if you approve or disapprove of his actions. Secondly, anything good in this country is either fought or ignored all together.

Does homosexuality harm or upset you in some way? Why should you care what gender a person is happy and comfortable with? ‘Cause some dope wrote in a book and other dopes believed it? Not everyone shares your religious beliefs. It’s sad that the US doesn’t grant full rights to homosexuals

No it doesn’t harm me. It upsets me that some of my brothers and sisters in Christ are lost and blind in their sin. You seem to be more hostile towards our God than I am towards homosexuals.

Justify and glorify? Wrong choice of words? If anything you can rationalize, more evidence that Christianity is a spoof, prove that there’s no reason that Satan exists or that freewill does(although not sure how freewill does exist when god is omniscient)

There is no way on earth to prove that the Lord doesn’t (or does for that matter) exist. Yes God is here all the time for those who want Him to be.

Yes there are sociopaths, there is evidence that criminals have less control over their impulses, and people do become addicted to certain things. These are acts of impulse and aswell mental problems. I do believe that people can learn to overcome this, and that the problem can be corrected. However comparing it to homosexuality is ridiculous, because there’s no point in correcting it. Homosexuality is not a mental problem, it’s not violating any laws or anyone elses rights. How would you feel if someone tried to get you to overcome being a heterosexual for homosexuality?

Personally I dont know what homosexuality is. It may be some sort of psychosis. I know that its embracing fantasy. There is nothing that homosexuals can do in terms or reproduction. Come on now. They have to have sex in an organ that was made to release digusting waste. And how would I feel? I would feel the same way I did when I gave up sex until I get married. Because its not all about me. I compare God to my father because I know He would never tell me anything that would hurt me. Even if I don’t understand it at the time I know that He knows whats best for my life.

What’s obvious is that homosexuality is genetic and developmental, and I’m generalizing. When I say genetic I don’t mean a specific gene, but more of a person’s genetic make-up.

If homosexuality was genetic (which implies it was passed down from a parent or ancestor) they would have died out before Americans started artificial insemination. It may be developmental. Even so, everyone has had some type of messed up childhood. GET OVER IT!!! I was molested until I was 14. With Jesus’ help I did!

P.S. Yea dude im so sure that its more likely that we are lizard people. Some people will say think or do anything rather than accept the possibility that there is something out there that is greater and more powerful than themselves.

Just like science has evidence proving that there are people prone to stealing… (kleptos) and lying (pathological liars) and sex addicts who are prone to fornicate and sociopaths that do everything… Every sin there is you can justify and glorify and make it right. You can sympathize and analyze and pacify and enable… The fact remains that as much as I love people in general I dont love them more than the God that has saved me from death. And since I love Him I try to keep his commandments. There are self-proclaimed saints that will tell you that God wants everyone to be perfect and if youre not youre going to hell but those are they that dont take the time to peruse the amazing words that are in the bible. We all have our cross to bear. Just as many homosexuals there are that SWEAR that thats just who they are there are just as many homosexuals that testify that through God’s love they have changed. (I am inclined to believe the ones that changed because I know that some flawed characterisics that I thought were ingrained in my life and my pysche were changed through my insistance that I could be better and the encouraging love from God and my fellow Christians.) God gives us situations and seemingly “immobile mountains” to move to show us that we are better and stronger than what the “world” would have us to believe. We are not a victim of our impulses. We have will and we have help and we have hope for a better world. If this country wasn’t so focused on self gratification and doing what feels good, if the joy in responsibility and the satisfaction in convictions was broadcasted then we would be more productive both in our public and personal relationships. We are not babies or animals that are driven by instinct. That is what separates us (well me) from the less intelligent and Godless. Saying that we as humans can not overcome or change ANYTHING (whether it be desires or cravings or instinct or impulse) is, Mandyloo, R-I-D-I-C-U-L-O-U-S!

Oh really GEN 19:1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.

2 “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.” “No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.”

3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate.

4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom–both young and old–surrounded the house.

5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him

7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing.

8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”

9 “Get out of our way,” they replied. And they said, “This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door.

11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.

12 The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here–sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here,

13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.”

I believe that Coretta Scott King, the widow of Martin Luther King, sums it up best…

“I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice… But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King, Jr., said, ‘Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere’ … I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King, Jr.’s dream to make room at the table of brotherhood and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people.”

“Gay and lesbian people have families, and their families should have legal protection, whether by marriage or civil union. A constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriages is a form of gay bashing, and it would do nothing at all to protect traditional marriages.”

“We are all tied together in a single garment of destiny… I can never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be,” she said, quoting from her husband. “I’ve always felt that homophobic attitudes and policies were unjust and unworthy of a free society and must be opposed by all Americans who believe in democracy.”

“Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Georgia, and St. Augustine, Florida, and many other campaigns of the Civil Rights Movement. Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions.”

“We have a lot of work to do in our common struggle against bigotry and discrimination. I say ‘common struggle,’ because I believe very strongly that all forms of bigotry & discrimination are equally wrong and should be opposed by right-thinking Americans everywhere. Freedom from discrimination based on sexual orientation is surely a fundamental human right in any great democracy, as much as freedom from racial, religious, gender, or ethnic discrimination.”

“We have to launch a campaign against homophobia in the black community.”

“Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood. This sets the stage for further repression and violence that spread all too easily to victimize the next minority group.”

First of all, you’re completely ignoring the Ezekiel passage that specifically says why God, in the story, destroyed the cities. Second, the original translation of verse 5 doesn’t say “so we can have sex with them.” It says the mob demanded to “know” them. The meaning does not indicate any type of desire to have sex with the two angels. You must also keep in mind the context. The angels are strangers in this story. Also, it wasn’t just men that came knocking on Lot’s door. It was, as the original Hebrew says, “enowsh” meaning “those of humankind”.

As for the term “arsenokoitai”, there are several versions of the Bible that don’t translate it as “homosexual”. Some do, some don’t. As I said, the term is ambiguous, and its original meaning is lost. We just don’t know what Paul meant. To say he’s referring to gay people is pure speculation.

Also, “male prostitute” is only one possible translation of the term. Others include pimps, pedophiles, sex slavery, or sexual abuse. There are strong indications Paul could have been referring to any of these. Whatever it was, “arsen” indicates a purely male activity.

Third, contrary to what you say, it is possible he mentions male prostitution twice, because there were different kinds of male prostitutes. The term might refer to the act of male prostitution that occurred in pagan temples at the time, in Greece and elsewhere. Or, the act of purchasing young boys for sexual purposes.

Fourth, and most importantly, the NIV’s own translation, which you use, does not indicate Paul is even talking about homosexuality as a lifestyle. “Homosexual offenders” is interpreted as meaning those who commit sexual offenses against people of the same gender. In other words, male-on-male rape.

The passage in 1 Corinthians has nothing to do with anything we’re talking about.

Sorry - thought I was editing prev post but it made another.

Assassin: the ordinary reading of Romans is face value: he announces what he is talking about - the Gospel - and then goes back to show man’s need for redemption, starting with general revelation. In chapter 2 Paul goes on to say that this alone is enough to condemn, and that even though God gave specific revelation in the law, it required perfect, sinless obedience for it to save anyone (bad news). Chapter 3 starts by underscoring what we already know, that nobody can uphold the law, but the Gospel is announced in vs 21:

“21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[I] through faith in his blood.”

That all seems pretty obvious to everyone from the time of Augusine to present protestantism in the 16th century sense (theological, not social). So if that is wrong, can you explain why it is so - as in a coherent argument - and not just make claims?

You never answered, to whom was he speaking, and how does this show that this part of scripture is not intended for all believers?

Then shouldn’t you be out killing homosexuals in the name of God? along with all the other sins punishable by death in the Old Testament?

No. Christ satisfied all requirements of the law.

To whom am I prejudice? To what particular group of people or person in particular? To what am I prejudice?

You claimed you weren’t JUDGING a particular person. And that you cant judge anyone who is not real. (1) ALL PEOPLE ARE REAL. (2) PREJUDICE encompasses the judgement of people (not necessarily any individual in particular) without sufficient knowledge OF those people.

You are being judgemental for TWO reasons:

(1) You can’t prove the Bible is God’s word, you only BELIEVE it to be true. So it remains only your OPINION… nothing more. and BECAUSE it is YOUR opinion, you aren’t ‘passing along the message’ you are passing along YOUR OPINION. (2) To WHOM are you passing your opinion along to? Do you KNOW them? Do you know if they’ve heard it before? Perhaps they know MORE about God than you do. Perhaps they don’t care what you think. Do you honestly think because YOU said, on an internet forum that: ‘’(blank) is wrong, because the Bible says so.’’ …that someone will COMPLETELY change their life? WELL IT WON’T.

Pointing at a book, WILL NOT change people. And claiming to be Christian, by doing so, is NOT Christian. You have to lead by example…

Since you’re cutting and pasting answers… I’ll do the same…

Being a Christian woman I believe that lying, stealing, murder etc. are all sins. I refrain from lying stealing murder etc.

Then being a Christian woman, you should be SILENT in church, along with other ‘male-dominant’ things as well. For the bible says to do so… do you refrain from THAT?

I believe that it is immature and ridiculous that we have to engage in this 4 page degenerative debate about whether I am judgemental.

Yet… here you are… doing it…

I do that too but if I ignored things said by humans I would miss pslams proverbs and and the majority of the bible.

…you mean the Torah (HEBREW Bible)… and cherry picking verses from the Torah and New Testament, only makes the Bible more contradictory.

Nah daddy, me saying something is wrong is most certainly NOT hypocrisy!

Actually it IS. Sort out your OWN problems. You’re in no position to condemn other people’s actions when you’re just as sinful. [Matt 7:1-5]

I dont know if you are lying to urself or me but for every radical Christian on this site I can name 3 RADICAL athiest man.

Think so? Then go ahead… name them…

To orthodox Christians, Christ is the fulfillment of the law, not the abolition of it.

Matthew 5:17”Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

BTW the nature of the Law is also explained in the first part of Romans. Also in very plain language. Man, Romans is the place to start if you need some clarification on the basics.

Someone mentioned that Romans is not preoccupied with homosexuality. Nowhere in the Bible does anyone get all bent out of shape about it - not the way Paul tears into the Galations over getting the Gospel wrong. Homosexuality is a particular sexual sin on a par with adultery. It is never some insurmountable, unpardonable, “mortal” [as our Catholic friends say] sin - it’s something that people are susceptible to as fallen creatures, and we are expected to grow out of it as we are conformed to the image of Christ.

Some people may struggle with homosexuality their entire lives, even being regenerate Christians. I.e. there are true Christians who lust after and even practice homosexuality. Is it a big deal? Well it is sin, which cannot stand in the presence of God, but on an absolute scale it’s no worse than lying or gossiping - it’s pretty far down the list on things the Bible concerns itself with teaching about.

Assassin, if Paul is not speaking of all mankind as the plainest understanding of vs 16 would suggest, whom specifically is he addressing? How is this apparent either in the text or through outside texts? Citations please.

King of Pop: Citations are references to sources used in support of your assertions. What you just posted is a bibliography. Not interested. Boswell has been roundly refuted on his work regarding tranlation of arsenokoitai. David F. Wright showed that Boswell’s work relied on disingenuous reading of early Christian authors (“Homosexuals or Prostitutes? The Meaning of ARSENOKOITAI (1 Cor. 6:9; 1 Tim. 1:10),” Vigiliae Christianae 38 [1984] 125-53).

W.L. Petersen takes a different tack to the same conclusion, making the distinction that while “homosexual” may not be a good translation because it it is a modern sentiment - homosexual as a sexual identity - it does mean sex between two males. (“Can ARSENOKOITAI Be Translated by ‘Homosexuals’ (1 Cor. 6:9; 1 Tim. 1:10)?”, Vigiliae Christianae 40 [19861187-91).

Frankly, the fact that nobody else read this passage this way in the time between 100 C.E. and the 1970’s is reason enough to draw a huge red flag. And what do you know - the brand new idea in translating ancient Greek didn’t stand up.

To whom am I prejudice? To what particular group of people or person in particular? To what am I prejudice? If you cant answer these questions its because I havent judged anyone here because I made a conscious effort not to. I have to make sure I do that everyday otherwise I WOULD be a hypocrite indeed.
It all boils down to this: I am a Christian woman. Being a Christian woman I believe that homosexuality, lying, stealing, murder etc. are all sins. I refrain from homosexuality lying stealing murder etc. I do not participate in rallies against any of the people that participate in the said sins and tell them that God is going to send them to hell. Nor do I indulge in enabling and praising the proverbial offenders for proudly commiting the afore mentioned wrongs. I tell those who CHOOSE to listen what the bible says. Period. Also, Funadvice.com is a site to get answers to questions that plauge you I ask questions that plauge me. You may or may not choose to respond. I believe that it is immature and ridiculous that we have to engage in this 4 page degenerative debate about whether I am judgemental. Do you not have better things to do? Frankly I am tired of defending my nuetrality. Yes I am a Christian but I am also a Christian PERSON and I dont care whether someone who constantly doubts and criticizes God perishes in hell or not. But I am only a young Christian and maybe this concern with all mankind with come with spiritual maturity. Until then you can be sure that I am not judging you or any other nonbeliever because at the end the day everyone is responsible for their own fate. And while I am vaguely troubled by the fact that some are adamant in disproving God and everything He has said I am more worried about those who are ignorant to God’s words or God all together and that is who I am trying to educate. You obviously know enough about God to make your choice to have faith in him or not. Changing made up minds is not my goal Mr. Assassin. Filling other’s with the good works of the Lord is.

“Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination” (Leviticus 18:22). “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them” (Leviticus 20:13).

As captainassassin already pointed out, these instructions come from the Torah, the vast majority of which, Christians don’t practice anyway. So I ask the same question I did in my original post: what makes this law so special that you would observe it, and not the dietary laws, or the stonings, etc?

There are several viewpoints regarding Romans 1:26-27. As I mentioned previously, one viewpoint is that Paul is talking about specific types of activity such as male prostitution in Greek temples or pederasty. Whatever the case, Paul isn’t making a blanket reference to homosexual orientation, or same-sex relationships akin to marriage. Homosexual marriage, interestingly enough, is never referenced directly in the NT.

A list of resources to check out, since you asked:

Boswell, John. 1980 Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality. University of Chicago Press. ISBN 0-226-06711-4

West, Mona 2005 The Bible and Homosexuality. Metropolitan Community Church. References the following: Brooten, Bernadette (1996). Love Between Women: Early Christian Responses to Female Homoeroticism. Chicago: Universityof ChicagoPress.

Helminiak, Daniel (1994). What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality. San Francisco: Alamo SquarePress.

Scroggs, Robin (1983). The New Testament and Homosexuality. Philadelphia: Fortress Press.

Tolbert, Mary (2002). “Homoeroticism in the Biblical World: Biblical Texts in Historical Contexts.” Paper delivered at Lancaster School of Theology, published on the web at www.clgs.org.

Wink, Walter (1999). Homosexuality and the Christian Faith: Questions of Conscience for the Churches. Minneapolis: Fortress Press.

And finally, another interesting read: Arland J. Hultgren, “Being faithful to the Scriptures: Romans 1:26-27 as a case in point,” at: http://www.luthersem.edu/

It’s interesting to me that you would rather make personal attacks against me, as opposed to debating the merit of my arguments. I actually didn’t see a single refutation to any of my points, or anyone else’s, in your post.

You OBVIOUSLY missed the whole point of MY response MRS. LOO. I am probably further away from being cold hearted towards homosexuals than you are sweety. Please show the quote in the bible where God threatens to send homosexuals to hell. It is those like you who lie about scriptures in the bible that turns people away from Christianity. Prideful sinning in itself is what God hates.(Justifying the sins which we commit with no remorse) I didn’t once say that homosexuals were crazed sex fiends. What I said is and I quote…”We are not a victim of our impulses…” Since homosexuals are DRIVEN towards the same sex then is that not a impulse? I didn’t say a SEXUAL impulse. Maybe thats what you wanted me to say. Maybe you want God to condemn you and hate you. But im sorry darling because he doesn’t. And you can fight for that sin all you want. You can go down with the ship and I will go down with mine. I am a Christian and I put MY faith in HIS word. Do what you feel is right for you. But as for me and my house we shall serve the Lord. For all of the people with hearts and minds not clouded by hate and resistance for the Lord: God doesn’t hate ANYONE. He is not a respector of persons. He is not a dictator sitting on his throne waiting to send his children to hell. He does tell you what is right and wrong in his sight and you can either choose to follow it or not. Any Christian who tells you otherwise is sadly mistaken. Any non-Christian who tells you otherwise is sadly mistaken also (cough mandyloo, toadaly cough)
P.S. Miss Loo about you not believing the testimonies of former homosexuals… Doubt the whole world for all I care… If that makes you feel better! :-)

That all seems pretty obvious to everyone from the time of Augusine to present protestantism in the 16th century sense (theological, not social).

Sure… obvious… just as obvious as being put to death for heresy during those times, if you start to question the ‘popular beliefs’ …people were ignorant of their own religion back then, just as they are now. The only difference is that now, they can’t use illiteracy or penalty of death, as an excuse.

Would you like to ponder issues that were ‘generally accepted’ in one time period, that AREN’T ANYMORE?

So if that is wrong, can you explain why it is so - as in a coherent argument - and not just make claims?*

Virtually everything about religion is based on CLAIMS. Everything I’ve stated IS coherent… and I don’t consider this to be an argument… its a BIBLE STUDY… so don’t be so defensive… you’re smarter than that, right?

You never answered, to whom was he speaking, and how does this show that this part of scripture is not intended for all believers?

Yes I did… I said it was not the issue, for the second time. The issue was who he was talking ABOUT. For some reason, you just ‘decided’ to make it about who he was talking to…

In the meantime, you avoided giving YOUR explanation as to why Paul suddenly went from present to PAST tense.

No. Christ satisfied all requirements of the law.

Right… like I stated initially… Christians don’t have to abide by Mosaic Law…

What did I state was a fact that was wrong - oh please tell me? Also, I have read the bible - although I along with many dont’ believe in it or a word that it says.

READ THIS MR KING OF POP

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” (NIV).

NOW HERE’S THE KICKER!!!

While the scripture may sound clear, the debate actually surrounds the use of the Greek word that this particular version of the Bible translates as “homosexual offenders.” The term is “arsenokoite.” Some say that it is a reference to male prostitutes rather than to two committed homosexuals. Yet, others argue that Paul, who wrote the passage, would not have repeated “male prostitutes” twice. Even others argue that the two root words in arsenokoite are the same terms used to prohibit any premarital or extramarital sexual relations, so they may not refer to homosexual relations alone.

BUT WAIT THERES MORE KING!!!

However, even if a person believes that homosexuality is a sin based upon this scripture, the next verse does say that homosexuals can inherit the kingdom if they come to the Lord, Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:11 - “And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” (NIV)

LOL…I’ve read all of those passages, actually. It is a misconception that in the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah, they were destroyed because of homosexual behavior. Perhaps you should read Ezekiel 16:49-50:

“Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.”

Nowhere is homosexuality mentioned, even in the original Genesis passage.

None of the NT passages you described explicitly condemn homosexuality. 1 Corinthians 6:9, and in 1 Timothy 1:9-10, Paul uses the word “”arsenokoitai” which does not translate as homosexual. It’s a word that appears nowhere else in the NT besides these two passages, or in any other contemporary writing. Its original meaning is lost, but many scholars agree it does not really translate as homosexual. It could possibly just mean sexually perverse behavior. In Romans, it’s obvious Paul is criticizing Greek behavior in temple worship, not the homosexual lifestyle. I don’t know how Christians continue to misinterpret that one.

You really need to learn more about this book that you claim as your source of guidance. You also need to realize that reading it in one or two versions of an English translation, is not gaining its full meaning. Study the meaning of the original Hebrew and Greek phrases.

W.L. Petersen takes a different tack to the same conclusion, making the distinction that while “homosexual” may not be a good translation because it it is a modern sentiment - homosexual as a sexual identity - it does mean sex between two males.

I hadn’t seen this part earlier.

Yes, sex between two males. But the term can be interpreted a variety of ways, and that’s been my point from the beginning.

Although Paul coined the term, it does appear elsewhere in later Christian writings, and is used to refer to pimps, or the act of exploiting people sexually for economic purposes (http://members.aol.com/DrSwiney/bennett.html)

Also, the New American BIble contains a notation on that passage in 1 Cor which says “”The Greek word translated as ‘boy prostitutes’ [in 1 Cor. 6:9] designated catamites, I.e. boys or young men who were kept for purposes of prostitution, a practice not uncommon in the Greco-Roman world…The term translated ‘practicing homosexuals’ refers to adult males who indulged in homosexual practices with such boys.”

Harper’s Bible Commentary (1998) also has this to say about the passage: “… both the effeminate male prostitute and his partner who hires him to satisfy sexual needs. The two terms used here for homosexuality… specify a special form of pederasty that was generally disapproved of in Greco-Roman and Jewish Literature.”

…what do you mean by ‘we’ …surely you don’t think that YOU can speak on behalf of all Christians. No sweety I cant. As a learned Christian can however speak on behalf of the bible. Since I know what it says. And He says specifically, For Ezra had devoted himself to the study and observance of the Law of the LORD, and to teaching its decrees and laws in Israel. And I believe that is what I am doing. Or trying to do.

Because Christianity has a HISTORY of, and is STILL of producing individuals that are, as you said, ‘’judgemental hypocritical intolerant homophobes’’ …and it is because of that history, the stereotyping is derived.

When a person is adamant and fully devoted to their religion there is going to be a hint of centrism. Unfortunately some blindly believe and dont study the characteristics of whichever supreme being they choose to follow. If they did they would realize what I have, which is that by forcing others to believe scares people away from us. Only by showing stern love can you pull people in. Furthermore, I have met some off of the wall diehard atheist that have persecuted myself and my God. I dont think that ignorant extremist are limited to Christianity. Do you? I think that type of sterotyping qualifies you (or anyone for that matter) as a monomaniac biased bigot!!!

Assasin: argument is a term from the branch of philosophy called logic. It is a step-by-step chain of reasoning that adheres to a simple set of rules upon which all philosophers agree. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument )

What you are doing is simply dropping sentences that want me to accept without showing any chain of reasoning. You are substituting assertion for argument. When you write “no it isn’t” without any kind of follow up it is hard to take seriously.

Just to elaborate on the ordinary understanding of the Law outlined in Romans: “You are not under law, but under grace” (Rom. 6:14). One who is under the law is one who has nothing but the law. Christians have the law, but it has been fulfilled for them by Christ.

Two of the three uses of the law are relevant to this conversation: theological and didactic.

The law serves the function of driving a believer to Christ. This is apparent in the first several chapters of Romans, but it brought to a point in 4:13. This is even clearer in Galatians 3:24.

The other use, didactic, is for instructing the believer’s regeneration. The love for Christ impels the believer to ethical action, but it is still the Law that informs the Christian of God’s will. This is most explicit in the Book of Romans in 12:2, but it is obvious from the start that Paul is not throwing away the law.

Here is the entire text of the first six chapters of Romans. You can navigate to the rest of it from there as well. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201-6;&version=31;

Also, some textual analysis of the passage indicates it’s referring to male prostitutes and those who consort with them (http://www.truthsetsfree.net/study.html, also see Scroggs, Robin. The New Testament and Homosexuality: Contextual Background for Contemporary Debate. (Fortress Press, 1983). Finally, even some early Christians understood the term to refer to male temple prostitutes, as is pointed out there.

So as you can see, the term could have several meanings. We just don’t know what Paul was referring to. But it’s not entirely clear he’s just condemning homosexuality since, as even your source admits, the concept was very different then than it is now.

1 Timothy 1:10

…depending on which version you’re reading…

But the Bible’s are significant to you, yes? Perhaps you are familiar with the description of Jonathan and David’s relationship in 1 and 2 Samuel? Studying various translations, one can’t ignore the possibility that the future king of Israel, David, in fact had a physical relationship with Saul’s son, Jonathan. They were in love with each other, that much is clear. Or, at least in David’s case, probably bisexual, since Saul apparently recognizes David has slept with both his son and one of his daughters in 1 Sam 18:21.

Other parts of the Bible are very unclear in their language about homosexuality. The word wasn’t even used in the English language until the last couple centuries, and it’s translations in the Hebrew and Greek of the Bible are understood somewhat differently. Paul’s references to “homosexuality” in the NT are very unclear. The word “homosexual” is not an accurate translation in the NT, anyway.

Very few parts of the Bible explicity condemn homosexuality. The only part that appears to is Leviticus 18:22, and 20:13. And many of the laws of Leviticus are considered irrelevant even by the most fundamentalist Christians. What makes its laws about homosexuality special?

Leviticus 20:13

That’s Mosaic Law… and it does not apply to Christianity.

Romans 1:26-27

That’s pretty vague. Paul is telling a story of a particular group of people, at a particular time. It also doesn’t sound like the focus is homosexuality, more like ‘LUST’ in general, or sexual obsession, etc. …and again, this is a story about a certain group of people, not ALL people. The following verses [Romans 1:28-31] talk about the same people as being ALL SORTS OF NASTY THINGS: evil, murderous, malicious, slanderers, heartless, and worst of all… disobey their parents… oooOOOoooh.

Romans 1:32

Contradictory. Paul is referencing Mosaic Law. Laws that Christians DON’T have to follow, after Jesus established the new covenenant.

Anytime homosexuality is mentioned in the Bible, it ONLY talks of sexual acts… done ‘lustfully’ …of which the Bible depicts ALL lustful acts as shameful, gay OR straight.

The PROBLEM with the Bible’s record …is that it never speaks of homosexuals that actually ‘love’ each other.

“I am probably further away from being cold hearted towards homosexuals than you are sweety”

I doubt that seeing as how I am a bisexual woman and most of my friends are bi or gay, while you on the other hand have already asked 2 questions about homosexuals. One saying you dont see how they can have children and the children will be raised properly and now this one.

I never said anywhere in the bible it says that God says homosexual’s will be sent to hell. Although, according to your bible those who have sinned must ask for forgiveness before they die in order to be saved. Why would someone ask for forgiveness when it’s something that Your God gave them in the first place. So they wouldn’t - and according to your bible - they would be sent to hell because they did not ask for forgiveness.

You can YOUR house can serve the lord all you want to. That’s fine. You dont like homosexual marriage - don’t have one. Don’t deprive other people something that is right for them though just because YOU don’t like it. I dont like religion - that doesn’t mean that I think your rights should be taken away though.

If you want to believe that homosexuality is a sin than that’s for you to decide and apply to your life only. Its when gay man and woman start being told they are going to hell and the are an abomination. That’s when it becomes a problem. When gay people keep being told that its a choice when the people saying that have no way of knowing it. I support Gay and Lesbian rights fully even though I’m strait. The only reason they shouldn’t have the same rights is because of the believes of certain religions. The government however is support to be separate from the church. There for the is not valid reason gay and lesbian rights shouldn’t be. The only reason not to support it is because of old superstitions. Gay rights shouldn’t even be an issue. This should be a no brainer. No valid reason same sex marriage shouldn’t be allowed. No valid reason that a gay or lesbian couple shouldn’t be “allowed” to raise a child.

…what do you mean by ‘we’ …surely you don’t think that YOU can speak on behalf of all Christians. No sweety I cant. As a learned Christian can however speak on behalf of the bible. Since I know what it says. And He says specifically, For Ezra had devoted himself to the study and observance of the Law of the LORD, and to teaching its decrees and laws in Israel. And I believe that is what I am doing. Or trying to do.

Because Christianity has a HISTORY of, and is STILL of producing individuals that are, as you said, ‘’judgemental hypocritical intolerant homophobes’’ …and it is because of that history, the stereotyping is derived.

When a person is adamant and fully devoted to their religion there is going to be a hint of centrism. Unfortunately some blindly believe and dont study the characteristics of whichever supreme being they choose to follow. If they did they would realize what I have, which is that by forcing others to believe scares people away from us. Only by showing stern love can you pull people in. Furthermore, I have met some off of the wall diehard atheist that have persecuted myself and my God. I dont think that ignorant extremist are limited to Christianity. Do you? I think that type of sterotyping qualifies you (or anyone for that matter) as a monomaniac biased bigot!!!

Yes. Actually, I do have a huge problem with homosexuality being seen as a sin. If a person believes homosexuality is a “sinful lifestyle” that must be repented from, that person is likely to oppose the idea of gay people getting legally married and adopting children, not to mention other rights. Not all will be inclined to think this way, but as votes on Prop 8, etc. indicate, many are. This is why it’s difficult for me to accept when people say they believe homosexuality is a sin, simply because it’s frowned upon in parts of the Bible (nevermind that in most parts, it’s ambiguous).

The “hate the sin, love the sinner” mentality is a no-go, in my view. If you “hate the sin” that means you’re likely to vote for laws that prohibit that action in general society, even if you claim to love the people that commit that action. In my view, “hate the sin, love the sinner” is an excuse to support theocracy and unconstitutional laws.

I dont have a problem with you not supporting homosexuality. As a bisexual woman, I do get pissed off when I am called “Immoral, Abnormal, Wrong, Disgusting, Abomination, etc” To me - that is ignorant.

There is a difference between not agreeing with the lifestyle - and publicly bashing or calling them names. If you don’t like it - simple, keep your feelings to yourself. We have feelings just like anyone else, and we can not change who we are. I can’t tell you how many people have told me I’m going to hell, I’m disgusting, I can change at any time, that immoral, etc. I’ve been beaten up because of my sexuality. I’ve been bullied. I’ve had people spray paint things on my car. It’s a lot to go through for something that you can’t help.

…and here’s comes the part where no one has a valid response in opposition…

Who said that? I didnt see that. But anyway we are not putting any1z issues under a microscope. We are examining the issue in general. Just because someone commits a sin doesnt mean that we arent supposed to study to show ourselves approve because some people are hypersensitive. I havent judged anyone because they are sinners. Actually in my question I said, “…I dont agree with the embracing of homosexual lifestyles nor do I agree with the bashing of “homosexual” individuals. I believe that homosexual behavior is a sin as well as I believe lying, stealing, blasphemy etc. Is a sin. but that doesn’t mean that liars thiefs blasphemers or homosexual etc. Deserve to be beaten or outcasted…” I judged the sin not the sinner. Ideally church is a place to embrace and love those lost in their flesh so that they can heal and reform their life. Unfortunately, church is viewed as a house for all of the judgemental, self-righteous hypocrites. Even more unfortunately sometimes if the Holy Ghost isn’t present it is…

Assasin: argument is a term from the branch of philosophy called logic. It is a step-by-step chain of reasoning that adheres to a simple set of rules upon which all philosophers agree. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument )

That’s irrelevant. Structured logic can not be applied to the concept of God, because God DEFIES logic. A person can use logic to reach opposing conclusions about God. So its not practical.

What you are doing is simply dropping sentences that want me to accept without showing any chain of reasoning. You are substituting assertion for argument. When you write “no it isn’t” without any kind of follow up it is hard to take seriously.

I don’t expect you to ‘accept’ anything I say… but I DO expect a VALID response. You’ve become unwilling to respond directly, and you’re attempting to divert the discussion elsewhere.

If you just want frog hop to different scriptures where the word ‘LAW’ is used, that’s fine. We can study those AFTER we’ve finished with these…

I’m still waiting for you to respond to the issues you’ve been avoiding.

Ezra was Jewish… not Christian DUH everyone before Jesus was Jewish!!! If you want to quote the Bible, as a Christian, you should be quoting Christ, since he is supposed to be the core of your faith. I do that too but if I ignored things said by humans I would miss pslams proverbs and and the majority of the bible. That energy should be focused INWARD, make oneself a better person. You (we) are a sinner(s), you (we) sin every day. And your sin is no greater or smaller than mine, or that of any other person… according to the Bible. So to point out OTHER peoples ‘sins’ or to tell another person that their lifestyle is wrong… can be viewed as hypocrisy. Nah daddy, me saying something is wrong is most certainly NOT hypocrisy! Now you want me to quote God? He says “ ‘Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt. Nope… they’re just more common… in the U.S… and on this site. I dont know if you are lying to urself or me but for every radical Christian on this site I can name 3 RADICAL athiest man.

As a learned Christian can however speak on behalf of the bible. Since I know what it says. And He says specifically, For Ezra had devoted himself to the study and observance of the Law of the LORD, and to teaching its decrees and laws in Israel.

Ezra was Jewish… not Christian. And there plenty of LAWS in the Old Testament that you DON’T and WON’T follow. If you want to quote the Bible, as a Christian, you should be quoting Christ, since he is supposed to be the core of your faith.

And I believe that is what I am doing. Or trying to do.

That energy should be focused INWARD, make oneself a better person. You (we) are a sinner(s), you (we) sin every day. And your sin is no greater or smaller than mine, or that of any other person… according to the Bible. So to point out OTHER peoples ‘sins’ or to tell another person that their lifestyle is wrong… can be viewed as hypocrisy.

Furthermore, I have met some off of the wall diehard atheist that have persecuted myself and my God.

So have I… and that’s one of the few times where I’m actually defending Christianity.

I dont think that ignorant extremist are limited to Christianity. Do you?

Nope… they’re just more common… in the U.S… and on this site.

Nah im not gonna call no names. I wont entertain that. Lets just leave that alone. And im sorry but im not judging anyone. Who am I judging? You cant judge anyone who is not real. And since im not judging any particular person, im just testifying about God’s word im sorry sir but your statement is incorrect.

So how can you use “I don’t like homosexuality because I’m Christian.” as an excuse?

Technically, they can’t… it’s a pisspoor excuse…

But they do it anyway, even though the bible teaches christians to focus on their OWN issues, flaws, sins, etc… they still like to put OTHER people’s issues under a microscope.

Well, I didn’t really read this whole argument… But I think its because in the Bible, it says that God loves all of his children, and that if you accept God, you will go to Heaven. Homosexuality doesn’t even play into that. So how can you use “I don’t like homosexuality because I’m Christian.” as an excuse?

You are right, no one is to be outcast. Let us find ‘em and He will clean them. There are exclusive churches and then there are inclusive…and that is the body of Christ. Let them come as they are. Conviction, true conviction molds hearts. And that is the only real circumcision, circumcision of the heart!

Those who follow him follow him. I can’t make anyone do anything. You have the word. Do with it which you deem appropriate. As corny as it may sound, I don’t want to scream at the deaf… I’ll tire myself and do no good. Signin off folks

Actually FYI I do believe that a woman should be the submissive counterpart to a man.

That’s… disturbing… but beside the point…

your right! everyone is to be jusdged when it is our time…homosexual, liar theif murderer goood person etc…WE ARE IN NO PLACE TO JUDGE ANYONE…if they sin so be it they are the ones who have to face their own judgement. just as I will have to face my own for whatever decisions I’ve made over my years. WE ARE NO ONE TO JUDGE ONLY GOD HIMSELF CAN DO THAT. :)

homosexuality is a relatively new thing that man has added to the bible because its changed and re-worded for centuries and most people beleive everything they read without thinking for themselves

The Bible applies to ALL mankind - just because one doesn’t believe there will be a judgement day for all, doesn’t make it any less true.

…or true AT ALL…

Majority rule can be abusive. That’s why we have the Bill of Rights.

As the Bible says, Love the sinner but hate the sin, as God does - we live in a day and time when many issues are 180 degrees out from what they should be and getting to be where if you don’t automatically / blindly accept it - it’s bashing - your opinion. views, values, are not respected, yet the same claim ‘tolerance’.

Well I guess thats where difference of opinion and majority rules comes in.

The Bible applies to ALL mankind - just because one doesn’t believe there will be a judgement day for all, doesn’t make it any less true.

:) you’ve been here long enough not to expect one captain…

And since Mrs. King isn’t God (She’s not even Dr. King). Her words are insignificant (to me). But thanks anyway utopia… : )

First of all there are scriptures in the New Testament about homosexuality also. Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9, and 1 Timothy 1:10. Secondly no they didn’t become null and void we just get forgiven for commiting these sinful acts. Thats why they say Jesus is salvation.

BTW the nature of the Law is also explained in the first part of Romans. Also in very plain language.*

No it isn’t…

There’s nothing in Romans that explains which mosaic laws christians are or are not supposed to follow.

Assassin, if Paul is not speaking of all mankind as the plainest understanding of vs 16 would suggest, whom specifically is he addressing? How is this apparent either in the text or through outside texts? Citations please.

I already responded to this. Look up…

Your sentence is also unclear. The phrase ‘speaking of’ and the term ‘addressing’ are not synonymous in this case.

Because some people think that because you don’t support it you automatically will bash it. That is not always the case. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion as long as they don’t force their views on others.

Personally I see nothing wrong with anyone being true to them self and I think that people should be allowed to fall in love with whoever they want…regardless of sex, race or religion.

I see nothing wrong with the way you see things…if everyone believed the same thing the world would be a very boring place.

The only thing I have a problem with is when certain people push their views on others…through violence or words.

But anyway we are not putting any1z issues under a microscope. We are examining the issue in general.

…what do you mean by ‘we’ …surely you don’t think that YOU can speak on behalf of all Christians. And its pretty simple…

Why is it that when christians don’t advocate homosexuality we are portrayed as judgemental hypocritical intollerant homophobes?

Because Christianity has a HISTORY of, and is STILL of producing individuals that are, as you said, ‘’judgemental hypocritical intolerant homophobes’’ …and it is because of that history, the stereotyping is derived.

I agree with u! I believe homosexuality is a sin!! and it is no matter what! but I have realized that we have to except them the way they are because they are not walking with God ata all!! ny oldest brother is gay and he isnt walking with God! even tho me and my mom are following God a lot!!! but I have to except him…and I dont think they should be beaten or outcasted either! and ik my brother is always mean to me just because I dot like his lifestyle and I think its wrong even tho I have excepted him the way he is…man this is confusing!!! lol

To orthodox Christians, Christ is the fulfillment of the law, not the abolition of it.

Matthew 5:17”Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Assassin, if Paul is not speaking of all mankind as the plainest understanding, as vs 16 would suggest, whom specifically is he addressing? How is this apparent either in the text or through outside texts? Citations please.

King of Pop: Citations are references to sources used in support of your assertions. What you just posted is a bibliography. Not interested.

Utopia - What a GREAT quote to bring up. Thank you for that.

dvdysljvb

“He says that we were born into our sinful nature it is OUR decision and choice this natural sin or to change it”

You can’t change your sexuality. You are born who you are - there is no changing it. Scientific evidence even shows that people are born gay. So why would your God create a being that is born into sin, and expect them to live a solitary life and never act out on their desires. Ridiculous. You are saying that your God wants them to be lonely and never love.

no one said God is going to beat up homosexuals. God loves ALL of his children the same. He says all sins are equal as I stated in my question. He knows that sinning is natural (young children lie before they even know what the word means). He says that we were born into our sinful nature it is OUR decision and choice this natural sin or to change it. Saying that “our God” (aka everyone’s God) will beat up homosexuals is ignorant especially since that is stated no where in the Bible nor did anyone say that as far as I see. God loves all his children the lost and the found.

To orthodox Christians, Christ is the fulfillment of the law, not the abolition of it.

Then shouldn’t you be out killing homosexuals in the name of God? along with all the other sins punishable by death in the Old Testament?

Assassin, if Paul is not speaking of all mankind as the plainest understanding, as vs 16 would suggest

(16) is not in question. Paul switches from present tense, to PAST tense in verse (20). He’s telling a story. If he WAS speaking about ALL mankind, he wouldn’t be speaking in PAST tense (20-26).

I am a catholic and do believe in quite a few teachings of my faith however I strongly disagree that homosexuality is a sin. Its nobody’s damn business what other people do with there lives especially if they do not share the same religion. Deep down nobody has the rite to tell anybody what to do and how to be if it is against what that person wants. The problem with the high press thing is because the most vocal Christians are obviously going to believe whatever the bible tells them is right or wrong.

To homosexuals, homosexual behavior is as natural as hetero behavior is to heterosexuals. So when you tell someone “my god is going to beat you up for doing what he programmed you to do!”, it is not going to be well received.

Nonchristians could care less what the Bible says or what you think your god likes and dislikes, and even liberal Christians are closer to that than they are to the more extreme versions of Christianity that view human sexuality as generally evil.

Yes that is debated often whether Jonathan was a beloved friend or a homosexual partner. I believe the former but hey I’m not a biblical scholar. There are also verses in genesis (the biggest illustration of homosexuality in the bible where the word sodomy comes from. Dont know how you missed that one (MAYBE BECAUSE YOU DIDNT TAKE THE TIME TO READ IT), 1st timothy, romans, 1st corinthians. Please take the time to read up on something before you state it as fact.

Nah im not gonna call no names. I wont entertain that. Lets just leave that alone.

…how predictable…

Who am I judging? You cant judge anyone who is not real. And since im not judging any particular person, im just testifying about God’s word im sorry sir but your statement is incorrect.

So you think if you don’t SPECIFY a particular person(s), then its NOT judging? Now you’re just LYING to yourself. Ever heard of a word called PREJUDICE?

Actually FYI I do believe that a woman should be the submissive counterpart to a man. I wrote a 4 page essay on it you can find it on my myspace page www.myspace.com/uniketallent

And once again ill state that those who do not want to read what I think are not forced to. I have no ones eyelids held open. Being a Christian does not disqualify me from my unalienable rights.

haha. we hit a brick wall.

You completely missed the whole point of that quote - congratulations. I tried to give you the benefit of doubt at first with this question and assume that you were not completely cold hearted and that against homosexuals - but you have proven me wrong.

“Just as many homosexuals there are that SWEAR that thats just who they are there are just as many homosexuals that testify that through God’s love they have changed”

You really should learn more about homosexuality. The gay people who have sworn they have “changed” either were not gay to begin with, (there is a point in most people’s lives where they wonder about being with the same sex and will experiment - that does not make them gay) or they are lying because your “God” threatens to send them to hell. So they lie out of fear and to accepted.

“amazing words that are in the bible” Haha, this was my favorite scentence, as I have read the bible and laughed the whole way through.

Do some research my dear - there is a gene that is gay people are born with that makes them Gay - it’s been proven and there is tons of studies on this. Now why would your GOD put that there - if he didnt like homosexuals. Expalin that please.

“We are not a victim of our impulses. We have will and we have help and we have hope for a better world. If this country wasn’t so focused on self gratification and doing what feels good, if the joy in responsibility and the satisfaction in convictions was broadcasted then we would be more productive both in our public and personal relationships”

That is so offense. Homosexual are not just acting on self gratification and what feels good. You love who you love. It’s as normal to them - as being a heterosexual is to you. It’s NOT all about sex at all my dear. That would be like me saying that the person you are in love with - is purley for sex and nothing else. How ignorant.