Isn't killing in the name of a God an explanation for madness?

I’m in a third camp here - neither atheist nor pro-Bush. Don’t get so caught up in the old way things have been in America, as to imagine that Christians all round the world are right wing or pro-Bush or pro-Iraq war or whatever. It’s just the way things became in America for a while, although I gather even that’s changing now. So, for the record, I’m an evangelical Christian who lives in Europe, votes centre left and wasn’t pro war.

Is ‘killing in the name of God an explanation for madness, in my opinion? Yes. It’s also normally an excuse - people have other motives for war and then sometimes tack a religious reason onto it. There have been wars which have seemed religious in origin, but mostly wars are to do with tribalism, greed, fear of change etc.

Thus, you don’t have to become an atheist simply because you reject the way Christianity has been in America over the last few decades. All groups of Christians have bad points and good points, and if we get too focused on one political dimension of our faith, in my opinion we give others a very bad understanding of Jesus.

To your original question, which is a good ethical dilemma (over the issues of lying to save a life), I would say that God gives us intelligence and discretion to make choices in his name. So to me, telling a lie to save a life is right - look at Oskar Schindler, who saved many Jews in Germany by any means possible.

The two commandments you mention are, as far as the translations I’ve looked at: “You shall not murder. and You shall not give false testimony against your neighbour.”

Thus it’s not lying as such which is banned, but lying in order to get someone into trouble. Quite the opposite to lying to save a life, so I don’t see any ethical conflict there.

As far as suicide goes - yes, it really does shake your faith. A friend of mine killed herself shortly after getting married, and another one died in a possible suicide attempt while very depressed about work. No-one should say that your faith remains the same after something like that happens. I don’t see is as a reason to give up on God, but it certainly did make me think things through, as you have been doing.

I’m not going to tell you to stop being an atheist, start being a Christian or anything like that. You have to make up your own mind. But try to look widely to find out the long-term picture, rather than getting blinded to what Christianity can mean, by some of the things you see its followers doing.

I do believe in God, but have trouble swallowing the Jesus thing…the “one and only” kind of thinking…too limited, too narrow, since that thinking exludes most of the world’s populations.

If you ever sit down and do a comparison of religions…the bottom lines are pretty much the same…be it Buddah or Christianity…so “organized religions” per se, may very well blind people to a spiritual God, with dogma, and zealot behavior. I’m sorry you’ve let them push you into a world without majic.

phrannie

alright… clearly you’ve thought this out… heres all I have to say.

God is incapable of commiting evil. man… simply IS evil… God gives man freewill… And therefore… If man wants evil on earth… God allows it…

after hearing this… one might ask themself How then is God not evil, if he created man in his own likeness?

I would say to them God simply gave us a choice. I think God would have been evil to create us programmed to love him. God is not capable of doing evil. Yes… We are made in his own likeness… but that does NOT make us the same…God is not capable of the evil we can do, just like we have not become omnipotent, omniscient, or omnipresent like him. Being made in his likeness does not make us carbon copies of him. God sent Christ so that we could have a relationship with him, and in this sense we become most like God.

I hope that helps… as for hearing God… Some peopl hear things… they think are God… and it not always is… if that makes sense…

as for your friend dying… I’m really really sorry… and I understand how we can become so mad at God… or even HATE him after these kinds of things… but That’s when you MUST REMEMBER!!! With good things (God)… there is ALWAYS something evil (Satan) These things happen to us because we let them… Not because God thrust them upon us. We have to understand Satan is powerful… and can control our minds… make us do crazy things… That’s when we need God most…

Funmail me… I really want to talk to you about this kinda thing.

I remember when I quit believing in God at 12. The only other atheist I ever heard of was Madalyn Murray O’Hair and everyone I knew seemed to hate her. I thought atheists were perhaps one in a million in America. Only after going to college and finding the Atheism section in my college library did I realize that there were in fact millions of Atheists in America and it wasn’t that uncommon.

Another example of people being unreasonable because of their religion is when children of Christian Scientists need blood transfusions. My wife is a nurse and they do the best to accomodate CS’s wishes for no blood transfusions but when situations arise where a minor is in mortal danger without a blood transfusion they do get a court order so they can give blood inspite of the parents objection.

In my book allowing a child to die by refusing medical treatment is bad even if it is religiously motivated. If an adult wants to refuse a transfusion that would save their life that is fine but kids should have a chance to grow up.

Indeed. People are always talking about how God told them to do what they’ve done. But honestly in the matter of killing for a God, I think it’s just an excuse. Once you put God into anything, so many will automatically follow.

In my personal opinion religion is a lost cause. One that seems to try and justify all our mistakes.

I say that atheists are a tough crowd because the ones online tend to question everything and not suffer fools gladly. They are more likely to check references and pin you down if you’re wrong. I find that stimulating but some find it intimidating. I’m glad that you are happy with what you’ve discovered.

I’m an atheist too.I like being able to live the way I want too - I agree with you xarix. Why should there be religions for a whole set of people. We should have our own religion - our own set of rules. I suppose some people like being controlled and that’s why they’re not atheists. I don’t like being told what to do, and I hate rules. All about rebellion =P

x

you interpet it wrong killing is not a sin, murder is, there is a difference. The commandment is thou shall not murder. Of course if someone was trying to kill your spouse it would be your duty to stop them, killing would be a last resort, and only if there was no other way to preserve the life of your spouse.

God wouldn’t tell anyone to kill, clearly its just an excuse for their evil, God made it clear in all of the holy books, there is no religion that allow killing,God is a mercy .

Reference the video:

I have no desire to argue this subject but this is hearsay - “He said” - it is not evidence from Bushs mouth, first hand - if that’s proof enough for you, great…I neither believe or disbelieve - matters not to me - would not be acceptable in a court of law however…Take care !!

That is one of WORST things a person can do: Using religion as justification for murder. I’ve seen few things as pathetic as a person ‘hiding behind the ankles of their god’

I consider this to be terrorism

It’s simply an easy excuse or cover for being Evil - Satan is the great deciever who’s destination is the Lake of Fire.

You said: “Bush said that god had spoken to him and given the order to attack” - never heard he stated that specifically - proof please…

I agree with that too.

I just dont think that commandments in a man written book should be classified as godly. Honestly, I just think its another way to control and sedate a series of people. Pure control.

over time “people” “humans” have interpeted the meaning as thou shalt not kill but the true interpetation is thou shalt not murder

Exodus 20 : 13 - Thou shalt not KILL.

Definately not =)

well of course I wouldnt want to insult anyone but in my OPINION I think religion is just a state of mind people look to for an easy explanation to everything their is. I wouldnt want to say that I am an atheist yet,…but I also refuse to see that religions give you limits on what you can and cannot do.

I was baptized catholic (which I still am) but I simply refuse to practice it simply becauses we are told to follow the 10 commandments. I say we should live the way we want to NOT HOW WE ARE TOLD

I think killing in the name of God is either insane or evil depending upon the state of mind of the murderer. However, let’s not forget that we all can be irrational at times and we can go to great lengths to justify our beliefs. This is not exclusively a Christian problem - it’s a human problem. It’s very obvious to us atheists when Christians do it but I bet we’d be surprised how often we “rational” people do similar things.

Oh and welcome to the atheist family. It’s a tough crowd to hang with but you’ll learn a lot.

Thanks, apathic. That’s a bit depressing about the Lutheran church. I do know that there were similar resignations in the UK Anglican church after they began to ordain women priests, but that since the initial ‘fuss’ there are now a lot of women vicars and on the whole things are going well for them. But that church has other problems…

Sorry I haven’t understood something clearly: are you feeling that I said something harsly, or was it what you said?

Aw, that’s really kind, apathic. Thanks.