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The state of the current healthcare debate is disgraceful. Instead of serious discussion about such an extremely important issue to ALL Americans, we have a few misguided people completely disrupting and shutting down congressional town hall meetings about healthcare. These people have been spurred on by alleged "grass-roots" efforts to do what ever they can to stop efforts at healthcare reform, including preventing the discussion from ever happening. The fact is it is not "grass roots" organizations that are pushing these people to behave this way. It is rightwing strategists and agents of the health insurance industry that are behind it. These people, mostly seniors, are being manipulated with fears of socialism and death panels, and they don't even realize it. It is no wonder it happens when you have the likes of Dick Morris on Fox News saying, “I would urge people to go to these town meetings... Go to the meetings and don’t listen to the people… that you should be very nice and polite and stick your hand up and ask mild-mannered questions. Nonsense! These people are trying to take away your health care in six weeks!” He also said that people should "terrorize" moderate democrats to make sure they don't vote for any healthcare reform. This type of hyperbolic vitriol has one goal, and it is not to engage in two-sided debate. It is to prevent any debate from ever happening. If those opposed to healthcare reform want to voice their opinions, it is welcomed. But they should not be allowed to prevent others from expressing theirs.
Why are they afraid of any debate? Could it be the health insurance industry knows once people hear the actual facts, there will be overwhelming support?
*** Dude... look, you can't tell me that all these people are just becoming a mob scene for no reason.***
I never said that. They are doing it because they are being spurred on to do it by the likes of limbaugh, hannitty, beck, etc... It is manufactured outrage. The people really feel it, but it was created by the right wing strategists and pundantry. They are lying to, and stiriring up hatred in their base by about the healthcare reform proposals. If you don't believe that, I only have 2 words. Death panels...
*** You act as if there's nothing to be burdened about when in reality there's plenty of reasons to be scared for our future.***
oh, there are lots of things to be concerned about. A big one is the burden that the current private insuarnce system is causing on our government.
Why in the hell do I want a Government run Health care?
Becasue it will be a lot cheaper, fairer, and efficient than private healthcare
*** I'm hearing the elderly over and over again talk of revolution! Are you kidding me? Revolution? That's not because of your OVER-STATED right-wing talk. Wouldn't it be great if you could just blame one of two talk shows. The reality is that the talk shows are obeying the people.***
2 talk shows? It is a lot more than 2. It is a whole recruitment effort being headed by republican operatives, and backed by the health insurance industry.
**I know that's kind of strange for liberals to understand as all the talking points are obviously handed down word-per-word. **
That's pretty funny based on the things you have been spouting.. I speak for myself.
*** Regarding B.O. - it's like I was eluding to previously, he's a smooth talker. He tries his best NOT to lie so he simply withholds the truth. I can point to specific areas within the (one of many) proposals that are why most of society is freaking out.***
Most of society? Most of society doesn't trust insurance companies. Many people are getting fed lies and misinformaion, and are starting to have doubts. It is not most people however.
**This health care proposal is not a good one. Again, I repeat, I have no problems with making our lives better. Our current health care system is getting just stupid. I despise paying high prices in co-pay in addition to my GREAT health insurance. I once heard a gentlemen say, why not take all the good things about socialized healthcare that other counties have and make them America's. I thought, hey, what a great idea! Let's figure out what's best and make it OURS! I'm not seeing that with B.O.'s administration's plans. **
What exactly have you seen about the CONGRESS's plans? Obama does not write legislation.
*** I'm not a dem nor a repub anymore. I'm so sick of the Government getting involved and screwing it up for us. I despise the lack of States rights! It's sickening. More and more do we get to witness less personal rights and haveto submit to continual government invasion. Let us be free. ***
Regardless of what you are hearing from the right, government does not screw up everything it gets involved in. Medicare works perfectly fine. Much better than any private insurance company.
**I don't mean to evade from some of our back-n-forth debate. I apologize. I'm just trying to relax this evening so I'm throwing out some of my blanket feelings about our current situation. **
You really should be a little more objective when listneing to those in opposition. They are not being truthful.
*** Most of the lies being spread about this proposal is coming from B.O. himself. His lies are never ending mostly through withholding the truth. How many of these proposals have they assembled now?... 14? As long as he hunts and pecks for one that suits his current purpose then he's not lying? ***
I see a lot of accusations with no detail. What exactly is he lying about?
*** Military healthcare is NOT a great system. While I've never had the displeasure of having to use them I know plenty that have. My own father in law nearly lost a leg due to military insurance. He opted for a private insurance and not only retained his limbs but never had much of a problem to begin with. I do work in those hospitals... I see it. ***
You will always find problems in any system. I know nothing of the details in your grandfathers case, but one incident does not make the whole system bad.
*** Medicare has been a problem for years and years. Ha.. ***
What problems? If it is so riddled with problems, why are seniors so happy with it. The only problem medicare has is a funding problem. It has nothing to do with how effecitently they operate. And they operate far far more efficiently than private insurance.
*** I recall not too long ago Bush was being beached about due to Medicare. Oh, but now all of the sudden it's a wonderful thing? ***
That was because when they passed medicare part D in 2003, it forbid the government from being able to negotiate with pharmiceutical companies. The VA, which did not have such a provision pays 58% less for drugs on average than medicare Part D
*** . God knows we need a better system if nothing else. Heck, I have no big issues with National Health care as long as the Government has little involvement! ***
How do you have a Nation Health Care program without involvement of the goverment. You need to stop listening to the right-wing noise machine. They are in the pockets of the insurance industry.
*** Come on now, the major reason for bankruptcy is due to health? I find that to hard to digest.***
Over 50% of all bankruptcies are do to debt from catostrophic health care, some even with people who had insurance . Look it up.
Dude... look, you can't tell me that all these people are just becoming a mob scene for no reason. You act as if there's nothing to be burdened about when in reality there's plenty of reasons to be scared for our future. Why in the hell do I want a Government run Health care?. I'm hearing the elderly over and over again talk of revolution! Are you kidding me? Revolution? That's not because of your OVER-STATED "right-wing" talk. Wouldn't it be great if you could just blame one of two talk shows. The "reality" is that the talk shows are obeying the people. I know that's kind of strange for liberals to understand as all the talking points are obviously handed down word-per-word. Regarding B.O. - it's like I was eluding to previously, he's a smooth talker. He tries his best NOT to lie so he simply withholds the truth. I can point to specific areas within the (one of many) proposals that are why most of society is freaking out. This health care proposal is not a good one. Again, I repeat, I have no problems with making our lives better. Our current health care system is getting just stupid. I despise paying high prices in co-pay in addition to my GREAT health insurance. I once heard a gentlemen say, "why not take all the good things about socialized healthcare that other counties have and make them America's." I thought, "hey, what a great idea!" Let's figure out what's best and make it OURS!" I'm not seeing that with B.O.'s administration's plans. I'm not a dem nor a repub anymore. I'm so sick of the Government getting involved and screwing it up for us. I despise the lack of States rights! It's sickening. More and more do we get to witness less personal rights and haveto submit to continual government invasion. Let us be free. I don't mean to evade from some of our back-n-forth debate. I apologize. I'm just trying to relax this evening so I'm throwing out some of my blanket feelings about our current situation.
Most of the lies being spread about this proposal is coming from B.O. himself. His lies are never ending mostly through withholding the truth. How many of these proposals have they assembled now?... 14? As long as he hunts and pecks for one that suits his current purpose then he's not lying? Military healthcare is NOT a great system. While I've never had the displeasure of having to use them I know plenty that have. My own father in law nearly lost a leg due to military insurance. He opted for a private insurance and not only retained his limbs but never had much of a problem to begin with. I do work in those hospitals... I see it. Medicare has been a problem for years and years. Ha... I recall not too long ago Bush was being beached about due to Medicare. Oh, but now all of the sudden it's a wonderful thing? Look, I understand the need for it. I have NO PROBLEM with health care reform. God knows we need a better system if nothing else. Heck, I have no big issues with National Health care as long as the Government has little involvement! Come on now, the major reason for bankruptcy is due to health? I find that to hard to digest. But I'll agree that it's crazy expensive and I'd LOVE to see it reformed so that most people have NO problems affording it. It should NOT be a rich man's option. I say we can wait longer until we get something that will operate for us all and not against us. How can people scream about the national debt and then say we can afford this HUGE undertaking? Let me see it happen so that it works. Although I'm against bigger government, if we're going to spend money let it be for healthcare for all ... yes, even those illegals! ... even though they have it anyhow!
*** Last time I checked the Constitution, We are guaranteed free speech. ***
Ones free speech ends once it violates someone elses free speech. These people are not excercizing free speech, they are yelling fire in a crowded movie theater.
*** Yeah...who EXACTLY is afraid of debate??? ***
That should be obvious. The health insurance industry. They stand to lose a lot with this bill. And even more if there is a strong public option, as people will flee from pivate insurance in droves. They know how well medicare works, and they do not want to have to compete with that. They are not holding back anything in this fight. But one thing they should not be allowed to do is prevent the debate from happening. That is exactly what they are trying to do by riling up these people with outrageous lies.
Phrannie, this is not nutjob conspriacy theory stuff. There are real facts that show who is behind this movement. Rachel Maddow did a wonderful piece about this last week. She exposed how this effort to shut down debate is being spearheaded by GOP operatives and DC lobbying groups. You can see it on youtube. You are being very naive if you think the insuance companies are going to sit back and let the debate happen. The know they can not win if the real facts are made known. So instead they will engage in extremely anti-democratic behavior in order to shut down debate. Unfortnately it seems to be working, as support for healthcare reform has dwindled.
And what makes you think nobody has read the bill? I am sure most of congress has. If they haven't then they are not doing their job.
Medicare is the primary carrier and sets the standards of payment. The secondary insurance pays the remaining 20% of the Medicare ALLOWABLE fee...your doctor charges $200...medicare allows $100 and pays 80% of that = $80...secondary pays $20.
***NOBODY has read the bill...
Republican Alaska Sen. Lisa Murkowski says portions of the Democrats' health care bills "are bad enough that we don't need to be making things up."
Murkowski, a Republican, told an audience in Anchorage on Tuesday that critics of health care reform are not helping the debate by throwing out false claims. Palin has said the legislation includes "death panels" that could deny care for the elderly and people with Down syndrome.
"It does us no good to incite fear in people by saying that there's these end-of-life provisions, these death panels," Murkowski told a crowd of about 130 at the Dena'ina Civic and Convention Center.
"Quite honestly, I'm so offended at that terminology because it absolutely isn't (in the bill). There is no reason to gin up fear in the American public by saying things that are not included in the bill."
phrannie...just keep believing and spreading the lies...let us know which townhall meeting you will be attending so we can see you in action...
they all have the bill, if they have not read it...that is on them
There is a great difference between not having read a bill that you were given and a bill has not been presented... I think that even you can understand the difference...
*** You think Military healthcare and Medicare are good? Really? ***
Yes, medicare (and the VA) are very good when compared to private health insurance. For every dollar that goes into the medicare system, 97 cents goes towards actual healthcare, and 3 cents goes towards administrative costs. For private insurance it is about 65 cents for actual healthcare, and 35 cents for overhead and profits. And the goal of private insuance is to make money, and denying benefits is considered a good thing to them. It will be far cheaper, and safer for everyone if we have a strong public option. If we don't have that, it will change nothing. Your local clinic is not run by the federal government, as utopia said, and is not indicitive of the success of a national healthcare system. Government run health care programs work great in other countries, despite the lies being spread by the health insurance and their mouthpieces in congress (the GOP and blue dog democrats). Show me one person from canada that wants to trade their system for ours. It is ludicrous that we spend twice as much as any other industrialized nation for healthcare. We cannot afford to wait any longer. It is one of the major causes of our financial decline. No one should go bankrupt because they can't get health insuance due to a pre-existing condition, but catastophic health care is still the major reason for bankruptcies in this country.
Do you really believe that our Constitution was assembled without debates? REALLY??? Come on now... it's all peace loving if you're a freaking Democrat (socialist) but if you're a repub or an Indy (like me) then it's not ok to disagree? We have ALLOT to lose with this deal. It's more government involvement in our private lives! Why aren't people screaming about that I'll never know. Look, I'm all for people having basic health insurance. I'd love to see it happen. But the government already has offered that for years and it SUCKS! Have you gone to the local clinic lately? It's horrible! That's our wonderful government's health care. If they cannot even get that right what makes you believe they're gonna be able to establish one that all of the sudden works well for 340 million people???
You think Military healthcare and Medicare are good? Really? I wouldn't refer to them as necessarily successful. In the sense that it is operating then OK... I agree they operate... how well is debateable. I suppose something is better than nothing though. I am all for spending America's cash on Americans. I say STOP spending our hard earned cash on other counties and reserve it for Americans. THEN I'll be more accepting of America's National Healthcare. I'd love to have a simple design available for everyone. Heck, I have great health care for my family but I still have to pay a ton of out-of-pocket expenses!!! I hate that. Again, get the clinics looking good first then maybe I'll have an open ear for it. I don't care if it's 100% run by only state funds (not).. get it looking good first.
***Have you gone to the local clinic lately?
Medicare is a government health insurance program. The biggest complaint people have about it, is that it does not cover 100%. What Obama is promoting is something more like universal Medicare than like free clinics.
However, they're trying to be too bold. All they really need to do is to include Medicare as part of unemployment insurance, and also extend it to children eligible for free lunch programs who are not already covered by Medicaid..
If they took a sensible middle road approach like this, it would easily pass and satisfy almost all the concerns without all the fears.
There is debate, public assembly and protest. I believe, support and at times participate in all... The behavior at these meetings does nothing to benefit their position. The lies of a 'death panel' ... I think the worst part is that the citizens who are yelling the loudest have been lied to... Oh, and local clinics are at the community and state level. They would vastly improve with universal coverage. Actually the federal government currently operates two medical plans, Medicare and the military system...both which offer 'universal' health coverage for millions...and are successful.
*** Ones free speech ends once it violates someone elses free speech. These people are not excercizing free speech, they are yelling fire in a crowded movie theater.
That's not exactly true. There is no legal need for Congress to hold town hall meetings. They are doing this to gather support that does not otherwise exist. It's a political gimmick. Yet, no-one is complaining of the unfairness of an organized sales pitch (town hall meetings) put together by powerful interests (Congressmen).
Disrupting a political gimmick is a legitimate political gimmick.
jimahl...we know who is behind these displays. I support free speech and the right to protest but this is just an effort to drown out the truth. I am amazed that those yelling the loudest and in the most numbers are those over 65, those that currently enjoy government operated health care through Medicare or those that have another government operated health care plan, veterans. They seem to miss the point because they are so mislead about the future. "Death panels"...I think that Palin is pushing that idea also...
The lies will never stop...
Why are they afraid of any debate?
Yeah...who EXACTLY is afraid of debate??? Perhaps those who have gotten used to free rein in passing huge bills, without bothering to read them?? Or maybe it's simply because they can't answer questions for the reason above...
Now you sound like one of the conspiracy "nutjobs"...I thought you were smarter than that.
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The people that want a soapbox and to rule us without opposition. Many are paid enforcers such as the Brown. . er Purple shirted union thugs that try by force to drown out any legitimate protest. Last time I checked the Constitution, We are guaranteed free speech. Representatives are supposed to represent the people in DC not to try and force DC onto the people. Joe
Many of those people over 65 supplement Medicare with another policy...
What truth Utopia? NOBODY has read the bill...how would YOU know what's in it, if your own state reps and senators don't know??? and if they don't know what's in it, how are they supposed to convince US to walk blindly with them??
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