What do you think of this scripture?

P.S. This is why it is our job to get the essage to as many as humanly possible.

torikeene: So just to be clear: You believe that your god doomed everyone who was born after Jesus but never heard of christianity to eternal damnation based on an accident of birth, simply because they had the misfortune never to hear of your religion?

exactly. let’s build on what girlfromga said. faith without works is dead. you must have faith in your savior that he atoned for you, but you must also have righteous acts. you can’t go to heaven on your acts alone because no one(except one) can be perfect. you can’t got to heaven on faith alone either. you need both.

thanks grg!

how do we know that he hadn’t already gone through the repentance process? How do we know that he wasn’t totally sincere?

where does it talk about the theif? I don’t remember it.

Note: Jesus said >>> THE >> A <<< WAY:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

“Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” 1 Cor 6: 9 and 10 NIV

I think that verse 9 has to be read with verse 10. (I’ve included both above.) Our acts condemn us. We are judged on what we do, but we are not condemned by our former acts if we have been ‘sanctified’ and ‘justified’ by accepting Jesus as our Lord and Saviour.

When Jesus was on the cross he was next to two other men

one bad one good

the bad was living in sin his whole life did most of those things

he was trully sorry and asked jesus to forgive him and you know what Jesus said

“basically” “Ill see you in Heaven”

The bible says faith w/out works is dead. To me that means that what you do is impornet. But youre acts will not get you into heaven cause the only way to heaven is through jesus christ.

The WAY is to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior - your sins (all those mentioned in that verse are forgiven, to be remembered ‘no more’) - bottom line: Works, No - Jesus, Yes…Hope this helps !!

As stated above, Jesus provided the atonement (At-One- Ment). Anything man added would dilute that and make it At- Two- Ment! He did it all, once, for all.

torikeene: Alright, that’s fine with me then - I’m happy to simply be a good person, do good things for their own sake, and take my chances.

Arachnid: did you take a good hard look at the 10 questions? Every single person in this world today has sinned. There has only ever been one that was sinnless. Jesus. Look at it this way, say you had a really big fine, and you’re in court and the judge says pay it now or go to jail for it. Well lets just say, in walks this person you don’t know, who has no fines and He says, I’m here to pay the fine. WOW! Not only did He pay the fine, He took your time in Hell. He broke the Gates of Hell so that we sinners don’t have to go there. I’ll stop bugging you about it now, but you will be in my prayers.

I agree with flossheal when she says you have to read it in conjunction with verse 10. I don’t think it’s safe to cherry-pick bits of the bible and draw conclusions from them. If you do that, you don’t have a good understanding of the context.

It would be like me making the conclusion that chocolate is bad for me because it contains sugar, which will in turn lead to tooth decay, without researching and finding that chocolate has antioxidants in it, which are good for the body.

I was wrong… our hearts condemn us - not God (thanks sillygirl006)… and to those who wonder if God will send people to hell only because they’ve never heard of christianity - the answer is NO… Jesus’ blood covers us all… before His blood covered us, people sacrificed animals, and the animal’s blood “symbolically” covered the people… our actions prove our beliefs and vows… if I marry a woman and promise her to be a faithful wonderful husband - yet sleep with another woman, don’t help out around the house or with the bills… then no matter what my mouth said, my actions have proven that my promise to be a faithful wonderful husband was only words - my heart wasn’t in it or right… the good thief on the cross had a right heart, so he was saved… although he was a thief and was given the death penalty, he understood the error of his ways, and asked Jesus to remember him when Jesus gets to Heaven… and Jesus said, that today you will be with me… God is merciful and loving - He doesn’t want any of us to be condemned - He wants us ALL to be with Him… peace, family

Do parents discipline their children for misbehaving? Do courts judge a person for committing a crime? All of the commandments have to do with right and wrong. Have you ever seen a judge give someone a slap on the wrist and respected the judge afterward?

Just because a person doesn’t know Jesus doesn’t mean they haven’t still sinned. That’s why it’s so important for us to spread the word.

It says in the bible that Jesus broke the gates of Hades. Maybe that means that those already dead found out about Him there. And if that’s true and they believed doesn’t it stand to reason that they would spread the word there just as we are doing here?

Yes I believe in a God who is a Judge. He is also unwilling that any should perish. It says so countless times in the Bible. But sin cannot be a part of heaven. How can he allow it to corrupt His kingdom. If you really want someone to be angry at, realize it is satan who impedes the work of Christ. We are trying, but there is so much opposition. Even now people all over the world are being murdered for their faith. It is satans will that all the souls belong to him. Please, look carefully at the scriptures I referenced above. I’ll be praying

I’d rather not take any chances!

The life with Christ is just too easy to accept for some. All you do is invite Him into your heart to live and reign there. Ask Him for forgiveness, for we all have sinned and fall short of His Glory. Once accepting Him, tell someone and then LIVE like it! Confess that He is God and then do those works, and that when you see someone, they are to be seen as better than yourself.

God has given us all Common Grace: each breath we take, etc His Special Grace is when we want to do His will.

To sillygirl006: We worship the LORD our provider, not the stuff we have or the “works” of someone else as do the LDS. Where is the cross, the reminder of what Christ has done for us, once for all? Many past LDS have come to our independent Bible church because of questions like, “Where IS Jesus?”, “Why am I harassed for not tithing?”, and just ending a prayer in Jesus Name just doesn’t cut it.

I have many friends who are LDS: my tax man is, as are his whole family is and still our friends, our best veterinarian is, and the only saving Grace that I know is that the Bible is used and God’s Word will never return void.

His Golden rule is the Platinum Rule: Do unto others as I have for you.

Our acts to not get us into heaven. The only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ. Those who choose not to accept him will not be there. If you walk the Roman’s Road vs. 1:16; 3;23; 6:23; 5:1; 5:8; and 8:38-39 it explains this. However, according to just about every pastor I’ve met agrees that Once you reach heaven, your acts will be judged. They will be refined with fire. Also see Matthew 25: 31-46, this is the Judgement of the sheep and the goats. We believe this will occur just after the glorious appearing of Christ. This judges what you do for others. For the least of these… Most born again believers will tell you, that after they accepted Cjhrist, they felt urged to do something with their faith. Whether that be to share it with others, or to help someone, anyone around them. Its rediculous to think we can live up to the gift that Jesus gave to us, but if you take the time to look at all the scriptures around any given verse and keep them in context you come up with a greater perspective of what that gift was, and a small way to share it with others. If you want more information there is a wonderful bible Study site @ http://bible.christianity.com They have a fully interactive bible study site, with every version of the bible you can think of, and the ability to personalize it, plus daily devotions, and a plan for studying. Also you may want to look up Tim Lahaye, I disagree with his theoryon the timing of the rapture, but everything else I’ve heard from him has been right on. I leave you with one more verse, one more command. Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go and make desciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

to arachnid… I believe in God, and I believe He will judge and condemn some to hell. I do not believe most people in the world have no idea who He is… or never heard of Him. in the bible (old testament) countries other than israel were told about Him - many even warred against israel and were convinced of Him, but they chose to maintain their traditional beliefs. I believe God touches everyone in some way, giving them a chance to come to Him - choose Him and love Him.

now about the question about our acts… our acts alone will not get us into heaven. we must have a relationship with God. the Levitical law of the old testament was too show mankind that we need God’s grace… we can’t get into heaven without Him - in our imperfection, we all have sinned and will sin… but the blood of Jesus covers us, making us perfect and new. that’s why the bible shows that some will proclaim their good works but Jesus will say to them that He never knew them… God wants to be loved, He wants us to choose Him - and the more we love Him, the more we will be merciful to each other, love each other, connect and care for each other, and be like marines where the goal is to never leave a fellow soldier (in our case human) behind… God wants us to have a relationship with Him, as we have with our closest friends (even closer - where another human can not always be there, God can).

My point exactly. Teach Christ and Him crucified. We bear (I don’t wear one either) our cross for Christ every waking second (supposed to anyway!). You are right, His atonement was once for all, that ALL sin went to the grave, and as He arose again, conquering death: something I’ll never see.

My last breath on earth will be met with the next one in heaven. In Christ, even the thief on the cross next to Our Savior, asked for Jesus to remember him and Christ said that he would be with Him in paradise.

The thief had no time left to do any works, he was saved at the last second.

When we are saved, by Grace through faith, we want to do good deeds.

Even after accepting Christ as Our Personal Savior, we can backslide to the very end and He will still have our names in His Book of Life. Even if we denounce Him. “No power on earth or under the earth will separate us from the love of Christ.”

No amount of study will back them out of salvation.

If someone blasphemes the Holy Spirit, they were never saved in the first place, for there is no way for a true Christian to do that, the Holy Spirit, God the Father, Jesus (The Trinity) all as one resides in their heart.

I want to also answer Aracnid, who has a very valid question, which is not one than can be glossed over. For those who have never heard of Jesus, there is, at the end of the Millenial Kingdom, a Judgement, called the Great White Throne Judgement. This judgement is for those who were not believers in Christ, as any who do believe in Christ will either be raptured, or will live to enter the Millenial Kingdom of 1000 years. This Judgement is spoken of in Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from His presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he/she had done. Then death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Now, to clear everything up, if you are not saved by the blood of Jesus Christ you will be judged by what you have done. This is for any not written in the Lamb’s book of Life.

Now, take a minute and think. Have you ever heard of the ten commandments? If not let me ask you a few questions.

1. Have you always loved God before anything else? This includes money, your children, your parents…

2. Have you ever used an Idol? This also includes money, or if you have created in your mind a God different from the bible

3. Have you ever used the name of God to swear?

4. Do ytou set aside one day each week to remember God and what He has done for you?

5. Do you honor your parents? This means to respect and obey them whenever it is in your best interets (If your father wants to harm you of course dont listen)

6. Have you ever committed Murder. Probably not, but Jesus said that hatred of someone was like murdering them in your heart.

7. have you ever had sex outside of marriage. This includes every type of course.

8. Have you ever stolen something? An Idea, a piece of candy at the age of eight. A joke?

9. Have you ever lied about anything? This is my worst habit. I’m forever having to sqelch down telling people they look great when they obviously don’t. That doesn’t mean hurting their feelings of course, but telling the truth, when done kindly can help rather than hurt.

10. Have you ever been jealous of anyone, ever? This could be your friend’s lunchbox in first grade, or a poem they wrote, or their cool new car.

Well, when your done answering those questions, take the numbers off them and listen to your consience. Do those actions feel right or do they feel wrong. There is your answer. The innocent do not do those things to each other.

Yes when Jesus came he became our sin offering, he took the punishment for us. That does not mean we are not still sinners. Everyone you know has sinned. Not one of us can match the glory of God. Can your good outweigh your bad. Probably not, so take what has been freely offered. In my last message I poisted the Roman’s Road. Read those passages. If you do not have a bible, use the link I put in, and sign up for the BST. Take some time, think about it. Do you feel pure, clean, holy? Well, There’s your answer.

Luke 23:39-43

thanks.

Then what about the thief on the cross? The very hour of his death on a cross, he had no time left to do any good deeds/works and he was to be in heaven when he died.

“Will we be judged by our acts? or do we get into heaven if we just accept Christ as our Savior?”

Well, the way I see it (I could be wrong) is that everyone sins and theres always repercusions to our acts. When we die, if we dont have Jesus in our hearts then yeah we get the book tossed at us. But if you do have Jesus in our hearts and as a savior well, he takes the sin on him.

I hope that made sense.

torikeene: Then the same question applies to you: Do you really believe your god doomed every person between AD0 and now who had the misfortune to live somewhere where they never heard of christianity? That the majority of humanity miss out because of an accident of birth?

If you’ll allow an atheist to comment…

I see this verse as more proof of Paul’s understanding of gnostic Christianity. Those who focused on the pleasures of this world and personal gain would never find the Kingdom of Heaven. That Kingdom was in a spiritual realm to be achieved by self-sacrifice and self-denial. I don’t think he meant this as an exact list of who’s in and who’s out - rather he wanted to show what types of people would never see the Kingdom.

Just my thoughts.

Then you don’t want to be in heaven and have a personal relationship with the Savior? Do you not want to be assured that you will live forever? Do you not want your sins washed away as though they had never been

I still haven’t seen a satisfactory explanation of what happened to the vast majority of people throughout history who were never introduced to christianity, and thus were never ‘saved’. Do you really believe in such a capricious god that would doom most of humanity? If not, and it’s possible to be ‘saved’ without converting, why can’t you leave me alone to simply be a good, non-religious person?

godzilla: Believe it or no, most people in history have not encountered christianity. Even now it’s not universal, but it’s been known only to a few western countries for most of its existence. Do you really believe that your god condemned most of the people who lived between AD0 and now because of where and when they were born, because they couldn’t even learn of his religion?

torikeene: So… all these people that never heard of christianity have to be completely sinless in order to not go to hell? And since nobody’s sinless, according to christianity, we’re back to the majority of the human race being doomed to damnation purely because they never had the opportunity to even hear of christianity. Is that really the sort of god you believe in?

As far as I can see, the choice for christians is either to believe in a god that capriciously dooms most of humanity to eternal damnation with no possiblity of redemption (since they never knew the ‘true’ religion), and the majority of the remainder for not converting, or, you can believe that you can be ‘saved’ without being a christian.

I just want to say that there are no acts we can do to get to heaven, but there are acts we can do to go to hell. we are saved by grace, through no goodness or merit of our own, none of us deserve it, salvation is a gift from God. but sin in its definition is the separation from God, resulting in death (not natural death, but spiritual death, leading to hell). the wages of sin is death, that’s what is repaid for sin. fortunately, that’s why Jesus was sent. SO, in a way, no our acts wont send us to hell if we repent and confess our sins, but if we dont, then yes our acts (sins) will send us to hell. hope I made sense!

wow…some good discussion. I am sooo going to comment on what you have all said.

later.

I wish I could explain this to you (because I have an answer) but I don’t think it would do any good. fun mail me if you really want to hear it though.

In a word: YES

let me just say…I agree with very few of you, but that’s ok! I’m glad you all have an opinion. let me tell you what I believe.

first, eleni, being an atheist, I found you to be very insightful, and in this regard, I totally agree with you. your ideas of self sacrifice and self denial are exactly what I believe in. I believe that our savior makes is possible for us to return to Him through the atonement—He gives us everlasting life. To gain eternal life, we must do al wee can to be righteousness…and after all we can do, Jesus takes our burdens. we must be penitent…forgiving, and living a righteous life. but along with our acts, we must (as godilla said) have a relationship with our heavenly father, with our savior, and also with the holy ghost. we must know them personally. we gain this relationship through prayer, and study.

flossheal–it’s fine that you wanted to lump my scripture with the one that came after that. the more the merrier! I just wish you had used the king james version, espcially since I had used it in my question :( I wasn’t trying to “cherry pick” bits out of the Bible…I know there’s danger in that. so, here’s the KJV of verse 10: “10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor crevilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” and with this scripture, I agree with elena…I think the important part is that we see it’s not a listing of “who’s not going to make it into heaven” but rather a suggestion of those who are not living righeously will need to repent (correcting their ways) if that’s what they truly want.

arachnid—I love your questions—they are so valid. what is going to happen to all of those people that won’t/haven’t even heard about christianity? are they automatically condemned? the answer is NO! It’s interesting that you ask that because LDS’s know about the plan of salvation…which is the plan heavenly father set for us to get back to him. all those who have not heard about christianity will be given a chance to learn about and accept the gospel. message me if you want to hear more about that.

torikeene—I think you have things totally backwards. if someone hasn’t heard about the gospel, it is NOT their fault. they have not done anything wrong. and, if you’re saying it’s your job to spread the word about christianity, then wouldn’t you be the one that was sinning because you’re not doing your job? You’re totally backwards. (according to my beliefs…but you do what you think is best.)

warmheart–I do not need to wear a cross to worship my savior. show me a scripture that says that. sorry…just, for me, that’s worshipping Jesus’ death and not remembering that he still lives. I don’t want to wear an emblem that forces me only to rmember how he died (which was painful and gruesome). id’ rather remember his teachings, his birth, the fact that he atoned for our sins, and his ressurrection. He is…well honestly, he’s everywhere. If I’m living righteously, then I remember to remember Him. sometimes your priorities can get screwed up. that’s when you repent and start over.

oh, and godzilla…God doesn’t condemn us to hell…we condemn ourselves. He has given us a plan and it’s our choice whether we follow it or not. We choose our future.

I’m so glad everyone is conversing…although we all have different beliefs, it’s nice to talk about them.

arachnid—I’m very interested in what you have to say.