reading the bible without the Holy Spirit?

Because no one is changing anyone’s mind.

You don’t know that…

That is excellent news… would they post an entry on this site?

I doubt it…

Captainassassin, You might have a point there… Would there be any hope to get confirmation of your idea from the side of the faithful, you think?

Thank you all for your patient answers!

Amblessed, I appreciate what you are saying. I accept that most Christians mean well and act out of care. However, they still think that they are right and that I am wrong. Don’t you?!
But is that so bad? You and I are intelligent and educated people and we are capable of arriving at our own conclusions on the basis of our own observations and experience. So far, I can not justify to conclude, any other way than, that there is NO train-wreck. I truly think that you are wrong and that you are wasting a great deal of your life on an illusion. And yes, my motivation to pose awkward questions regarding your doctrine is equally… care! Difference between your and my conviction is, that mine does not come with a threat of eternal sanction in case of disagreement. Yours does and I like it better my way.

Anyhow, your advice does not answer my question, alas.

Some christians will tell you that you can never understand the message of the Bible without being inspired by the Holy Spirit.

That form of (finger quotes) ‘reasoning’ was developed to: (a) provide an ‘last-ditch’ excuse for Christians who don’t know enough about the Bible to adequately defend their views. But they still like to portray their beliefs as ‘plain as day’ or ‘the OBVIOUS choice’ …in other words: ‘’This is how the Bible is supposed to be interpreted, and the only reason you don’t agree with me …is because I’m holy and you’re NOT. (b) to make believers feel superior to others.

Toedaly, …nail on the head, by the looks of it!

Libbyduh, Has the New Living Translation by-passed the Holy Spirit, you think?

It’s a classic double standard. When you point out something utterly ridiculous in the Bible that is blatently obviously the work of superstitious ignorant ancient men, suddenly you aren’t reading it right because the Holy Spirit hasn’t possessed you (which is for some reason not seen as a violation of free will..go figure). Or when you point out one of the numerous failed prophecies that never came to pass, again, you just aren’t reading it right. We’re in the end times and all those failed prophecies are just around the corner!!!

But then, when it says Jesus was born of a virgin, oh you can bet everyone is fully capable of understanding that without any help from the holy spook.

…probably not from the conservative sector. But I know some Christian scholars, and a few liberal Christians who agree.

biblegateway.com has lots of different versions. new living translation is good. the whole point of having different versions is so you can understand it.

:)

annv, what do you mean “by passed”? what I am saying is that if you want to read the bible get a version you can understand. King James version, I cant understand so well, NKJV is a little better but you’ve got to find the right version for you. there is no point to the book if you can’t understand it.

satire noun

1. witty language used to convey insults or scorn; 2: a work of literature that mocks social conventions, another work of art, or anything its author thinks ridiculous

Source: dictionary.com

1. But is that so bad? You and I are intelligent and educated people and we are capable of arriving at our own conclusions on the basis of our own observations and experience. So far, I can not justify to conclude, any other way than, that there is NO train-wreck. I truly think that you are wrong and that you are wasting a great deal of your life on an illusion. And yes, my motivation to pose awkward questions regarding your doctrine is equally… care

Source: annv

2. It’s a classic double standard. When you point out something utterly ridiculous in the Bible that is blatently obviously the work of superstitious ignorant ancient men, suddenly you aren’t reading it right because the Holy Spirit hasn’t possessed you (which is for some reason not seen as a violation of free will..go figure). ;Toedaly, …nail on the head, by the looks of it!

Libbyduh, Has the New Living Translation by-passed the Holy Spirit, you think?

Source: toadaly; annv

So, oops I guess there was such humor honey!

Im not saying that what you are doing is particularly aggressive. Im saying that I do not understand why nonbelievers devote so much time to disprove God. If you are supposed to be so tollerant of others then why do you constantly scoff at whom we believe to be the Superior Being. And I think that it is a prejudice. I dont see people devoting even a small percentage of this time protesting any other religious groups deity. Do you debate with the followers of Goddess Yemaya? Do you mock Oshun and research seemingly discrediting evidence from crackpot scientist and geologist to prove HE’s not real? Oh is it because we try and share the good news? Do we force it upon you? Is that what upsets you? Is it being “shoved down your throat?” Do you know thats exactly what antigay rally participants have been quoted saying? The whole deal is that this is America. The price for our beautiful freedom of speech is everyone’s freedom of speech. I dont think that it is right to portray those who believer as mindless zombies with antiquated and outdated beliefs. Like we are superstitious ol ladies on the porch gossiping. That is not tollerance at all. Now in terms of debate these snide low blows are just that snide low blows and sneaky name calling. And I DONT BELIEVE (for the benifit of captainassassin) that anyone is being swayed. And like I said with one side swearing He is real and the other swearing He isnt someone has to be lying. We just wont know until we are dead…and gone…or not…

Thanks dvdysljvb,

As for the quotations I can only speak for myself and I wrote those things down in earnest. Reading it back, I can not even see what is so humorous about it. But sure… whatever makes you laugh…

As for other deities than the Abrahamic one, have a look at my list of entries on this site… I am an atheist in the face of those too (just like you, I presume).

Your ‘mindless zombies’ remark etc. must concern others; I don’t take responsibility for that. Please get that right!

Now, you seem to be bothered with a lot items that I have already covered in previous treads. To avoid going in circles, I refer you to those!

And thanks… for informing us about the antigay-rally-situation in the U.S. I would not have known… Where I live, gay people have been calmly integrated in society nowadays. Here, folks are not really interested in other people’s love-life. It is considered private… Obviously, we have some nut-cases who feel the need to discriminate, but fortunately not to many.

I dont see people devoting even a small percentage of this time protesting any other religious groups deity.

That’s because Christians are more common in general, they are more commonly vocal about their beliefs, but are also commonly more ignorant of their own religion.

with one side swearing He is real and the other swearing He isnt someone has to be lying.

Actually, those who ‘swear’ he is real, and those who ‘swear’ he isn’t… are BOTH technically LYING… since neither side KNOWS… no matter what they claim.

dvdysljvb, in reaction to your comment: “…this profound satirical discussion…”, I had a look in my dictionary under ‘satire’: “the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people’s stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary (.) topical issues…”. No such humor on this forum, alas.

“…blasphemous revelations/“observations…”. Blasphemous? You must be joking?! This is the most well behaved, well mannered and dignified site on the World Wide Web! Give us some credit, please…

“…more earnest issues(?) e.g. world hunger, aids crisis, child molestation etc…”. True, no dispute there! But if people would not have had discussions like these in the past, we still would literally be living in the Middle Ages. Critical thinking has always been on the basis of improvement. If a scholar like, lets say, Erasmus would not have written his critical essays, the world would now be a far more unpleasant place to live in. Please let us quarrel. In the end I would have much more respect for a christian who can say to me: ‘think what you like, I came to another conclusion than you did…’. Than a person who is not willing to stand up for his/her believes.

“…We can debate, reference, lie…” Lie?! If you consider people to be liars on this forum, I think that you do not understand the spirit of these discussions. And I take issue with that. An opinion that seems different from yours, does not automatically become a lie!

dvdysljvb, in reaction to your comment: “…this profound satirical discussion…”, I had a look in my dictionary under ‘satire’: “the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people’s stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary (.) topical issues…”. No such humor on this forum, alas.

“…blasphemous revelations/“observations…”. Blasphemous? You must be joking?! This is the most well behaved, well mannered and dignified site on the World Wide Web! Give us some credit, please…

“…more earnest issues(?) e.g. world hunger, aids crisis, child molestation etc…”. True, no dispute there! But if people would not have had discussions like these in the past, we still would literally be living in the Middle Ages. Critical thinking has always been on the basis of improvement. If a scholar like, lets say, Erasmus would not have written his critical essays, the world would now be a far more unpleasant place to live in. Please let us quarrel. In the end I would have much more respect for a christian who can say to me: ‘think what you like, I came to another conclusion than you did…’. Than a person who is not willing to stand up for his/her believes.

“…We can debate, reference, lie…” Lie?! If you consider people to be liars on this forum, I think that you do not understand the spirit of these discussions. And I take issue with that. An opinion that seems different from yours, does not automatically become a lie!

dvdysljvb, in reaction to your comment: “…this profound satirical discussion…”, I had a look in my dictionary under ‘satire’: “the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people’s stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary (.) topical issues…”. No such humor on this forum, alas.

“…blasphemous revelations/“observations…”. Blasphemous? You must be joking?! This is the most well behaved, well mannered and dignified site on the World Wide Web! Give us some credit, please…

“…more earnest issues(?) e.g. world hunger, aids crisis, child molestation etc…”. True, no dispute there! But if people would not have had discussions like these in the past, we still would literally be living in the Middle Ages. Critical thinking has always been on the basis of improvement. If a scholar like, lets say, Erasmus would not have written his critical essays, the world would now be a far more unpleasant place to live in. Please let us quarrel. In the end I would have much more respect for a christian who can say to me: ‘think what you like, I came to another conclusion than you did…’. Than a person who is not willing to stand up for his/her believes.

“…We can debate, reference, lie…” Lie?! If you consider people to be liars on this forum, I think that you do not understand the spirit of these discussions. And I take issue with that. An opinion that seems different from yours, does not automatically become a lie!

Though this profound satirical discussion is mildly amusing I would like to briefly interupt to pose a question. Why dont believers and nonbelievers agree to disagree so this abundant energy that is spent making blasphemous revelations/“observations” and condemning prophecies can be donated to solving more earnest issues? e.g. world hunger, aids crisis, child molestation etc. :) Because no one is changing anyone’s mind. We can debate, reference, lie and quote but the truth is no one will know for sure until we’re dead! Then it will be too late to debate anyway. ;)

What they mean by that is some people interpret the bible to make it condemning to only a certain group of people. They try to change the bible’s meanings in there mind to deflect attention and condemnation from their sins and wrongdoings. The only way you can let Gods word enter your heart is through an open and humble heart. If you enter it in your own mind then the time will be spent reading but not hearing God’s word.

Have you ever backed up something you said with bibliographic references. The bible to we Christians is like the ultimate guide to how to live life. I dont want to sound preachy but the bible is so filled with truth that it is sometimes hard to understand some disregard and despise it!

Hope this helped!!! :)

This was stated: ‘They will also tell you that the Bible has a simple message, and they quote texts from the Bible in an attempt to persuade you that they are right and you are wrong.’ - that statement is very wrong - a Christian’s attempt/intent is to ‘spread the good news’, as Christ directed ‘Go into all the World’ and they do it because they CARE enough to tell you, there’s a Huge trainwreck coming at you, rather than see the train bearing down on you and keeping silent / playing ‘I’ve got a secret’…I would want to be warned/alerted !!

The text is simple for the most part and somewhat easier to read if the modern day version (it was called the Living Word I think,but that probably 30-35 years ago.

I think what they are trying to say may be I that when you have the Holy Spirit in you the text gives you a more joyful feeling because they feel the message is one of happiness and “life without end” after death. Here is where I begin to lose it,,,if those who do not “follow” this message!!formed from the text, are sinners and like sheep we need to called to and herded to receive the message. Then for however long it takes to rewire your brain and wanting to read the text in a “new light” and with better understanding we then venture out to find some poor unsuspecting sinner and. Start to “spread the word” to those who cab not read the Bible with the same view as a Christian this was in no way in reference to ANY ONE on this site!!!