Jesus' execution!

eternallife

well obviously but hey he’s son of God, what happened ot being able to heal & such? Or was he suddenly not able to?

OK… the Shroud of Turin (I assume that Thex13thxchild referred to that shroud). First, I agree with Eternallife when she writes: ‘…it has not been established that the shroud was the one used on Jesus…’. Even the Church does not acknowledges the Shroud’s authenticity. Scientific evidence suggests that it is not Jesus’ shroud (or anyone else’s).

What convinces me that it must be fake is both the lack of globe-effect as well as the evidence against the claim of its ‘photographic’ quality (amongst a list of other empirical evident facts).

Globe-effect occurs when a flexible object (like the material of a death-shroud) is wrapped around (or draped over) a 3d object (like a globe, such as the head of a corpse); imagine that you wrap a towel around a grapefruit that is covered in wet red paint. Take the towel off, fold it open and you will see a distorted image of the grapefruit in monotone red colour; not a perfect photographic representation of the fruit. The Shroud does indeed show a perfect photographic portrait of a man; no globe-effect as it should have shown!

The suggested photographic quality is claimed to be the result of a magic energy that radiated from Jesus’ body at one stage of his short death. The magic energy made the image on the inside of the cloth; much like light making an image on an old-fashioned sheet of light-sensitive photo-paper. This concept fails by the lack of a lens that is required to control the image projection on the medium (in this case; the Shroud). To illustrate that; imagine a sheet of light-sensitive photo-paper wrapped around a lightbulb (the photo-paper representing the shroud, and the lightbulb representing Jesus’ energy radiating body); light the lightbulb for a short moment; fold open the paper and develop it in a photo-lab and print it out; the result will show a non-figurative white stain; it will not show a photographic image of a lightbulb. The Shroud does indeed show a perfect photographic portrait of a man; not a non-figurative white stain as it should have done!

You can do these experiments at home. On the basis of the evidential results of your experiment, rational people will (probably provisionally) conclude that the Turin Shroud is not what many faithful people claim it to be. This is how science works…

There wasn’t one particular source. Esoteric beliefs hold that the Israelites attained their belief from various Indo-European beliefs. These beliefs are echoed in the etymology as well as in their scripture. The idea of monotheism was garnered from the Zoroastrians who first believed in a most high god that was on a separate level than the more familiar local deities. The gnostics would have equated yhwh with jupiter who was in certain locations known as jove. Jupiter was the chief god succeeding Saturn.. who the gnostics equated with satan.

You can study the Nag Hammadi texts and some esoteric studies of the bible. I have equated the same beliefs with some sumerian notions of creation as well. Jesus has many parallels with Krishna… Buddha… the melchizedek of the old testament and other indo-european sun deities. He is a representation of the light… and the light or energy superuniverse that is taught in esoteric teachings as the home of the most high god. This is the basis of Jesus’ death and return within 3 days around the time of the vernal equinox when the sun overcomes the winter and days[light] triumph over darkness. His birth is celebrated 3 days past the winter solstice… when the sun[light] is at its dimmest point. His symbol the cross is a representation of the solar wheel… similarly buddha is depicted with the swastika… another representation of the solar wheel.

Another example is in the story of the garden of eden. Lucifer who is the lightbearer… and identified with Venus… opened mans eyes to the possibility of receiving the sophia[knowledge] of the christ[light]… and the gnostics name the eloim[elohim] as the group of gods responsible for the creation of mans physical body and satisfies those long held questions of the identity of the “us” in those weird verses in Genesis.

For what all this is worth… there are sources that lend to the belief.. but none I know of that espouse it outright. Again… read the Nag Hammadi texts… research esoteric studies of the bible… and compare with your knowledge of other belief systems.

Eternallife, ok so you don’t believe this was the original shroud, it makes one in a million. How would you explain the other 999 999 who believed it to be the real thing and had some miraculous healing and prayers came true, praying and be close to it???

If and only IF you are honest, you would admit that those people (if they were really healed) healed their own bodies by chemicals and hormones the body is able to release by a positive attitude!!! This is indeed possible even without prayers or supernatural intervention. Which means, they had a hell of an imagination, which in turn mean all of you do, having a priest healing you or for that matter all of the healings which “apparently” took place according to the bible?

Some of those people also had other prayers came true, how do they afterwards explain the reason for that? Or did the owner of the shroud take back all the things they received? Could it be possible that they realized, the things they’ve received was pure co-incidence or by their own doing?
Or did they, like millions others religious people choose to ignore it, not using their rational mind or maybe to save them the embarrassment?

Eternallife Actally Jesus had met some preists and had held a discussion with them and they marvelled at his knowledge. That was all when he was just 12. This shows that he already knew who he was but was Just waiting for his tme to bigin his work. So your assumption is not right

A person this important and yet his name and doings only mentioned 2 or 3 times before he started his “work”, just have to wonder why wait until his 30s? Or could the true reason be because this really were the first time he came across this religion???
Mean to say, anyone who wrote a story afterwards “must” have done some Big time Thumb sucking getting this “Hear say” and “myths” in the correct order to make it believable and which at that time, didn’t think it important enough to mention jesus more often, didn’t think the human brain would ever be able puzzle this, or ask these questions! Much less getting an Airplane flying or wow a toaster in the kitchen!!! (and that goes for to many other issues mentioned before as well)

Picture this Eternallife: Your husband is asked to write your life story of 30yrs with him.

He mentioned the day he met you. Then throughout the story he writes about his football days, his bad time at work etc. Then he writes about the day you guys get married. The next few pages all about the house he build for the family, the difficult times he had to earn money to provide for the family, all about his own brothers and sisters. He eventually mention you again on the 30th anniversary of your wedding day! 3 times in the entire 100 page book! How large a role did you really play in his life?

Think rational and experience your true feelings, not the ones you were “trained” to think!

If we believe in Jesus Christ He will forgive us all our sins however big they are ( including murder and rape).

OMG So what you are saying is that god forgives them, yet the person is sitting behind bars for the rest of his natural life? God doesn’t punish him, it is all right he is forgiven but yet Humans decided his deed were unforgiving and get a Jail sentence? He would be allowed in Heaven, but the guy who committed fraud and did not ask for forgiveness will go to hell. (Here we are back to square one, yet again!!!)

He was called a sacrifice because he was supposed to die for the sins of mankind.

Back in those days, in order to be forgiven of your sins blood was required for atonement . That is why they sacrificed animals. The animal had to be without blemish or flaw, a perfect animal, as payment for their sins. That was what God commanded.

God sent his son for many reasons. But 1 of the most important one was to live a perfect life so he may be killed as a sinner. He was killed (though committed no sin) so that he may be that “sacrifice” for all mankind. He was the flawless animal slain for the sins of all of mankind. He did it so we can be forgiven of our sins. If you ever hear the expression that his blood washes us white as snow. It is referring to his death cleansing us of our sins.

He rose again, because he told the pharisees that he would as well as showing us that because of his death we can live again. We will have eternal life in heaven. We must face a worldly death, but live forever in the kingdom of heaven.

I hope this helps. Have anymore questions feel free to ask me personally.

aaah, true I hadn’t thought about that piece of information, it was so obvious I should of thought of that, lol.

Though I still find it pathetic that people have lasted on the cross for up to 9 days, yet the supposed son of God only lasted 6 hours.

Eternallife, quite frankly, I think all of you would think of more and more far fetched explanations to Proof your delusional beliefs, the less sense it make, the more you believe it!

I have already told you that I don’t believe that the shroud is the cloth that Jesus was wrapped in.

Though I still find it pathetic that people have lasted on the cross for up to 9 days, yet the supposed son of God only lasted 6 hours.

The time a person lasted on the cross depended the amount of torture the person had to undergo.

Fynny thing is Annv, that most or all xtian believers so readily believed that “this” was “the Shroud” and on approaching it received the holy spirit etc. and had some prayers answered! They could be told anything by a minister or priest and believe it! Scary!

Eternallife, quite frankly, I think all of you would think of more and more far fetched explanations to Proof your delusional beliefs, the less sense it make, the more you believe it!

You live in your fairy tale, I prefer to keep it rational and realistic!

A person this important and yet his name and doings only mentioned 2 or 3 times before he started his “work”, just have to wonder why wait until his 30s? Or could the true reason be because this really were the first time he came across this religion???

Firstly as I have already told you, He waited for His time to start His work. Secondly nothing much important happened during His childhood apart from the one I mentioned. Thirdly it is mentioned in the Bible that He went back with His parents and lived obedient to them.

OMG So what you are saying is that god forgives them, yet the person is sitting behind bars for the rest of his natural life? God doesn’t punish him, it is all right he is forgiven but yet Humans decided his deed were unforgiving and get a Jail sentence? He would be allowed in Heaven, but the guy who committed fraud and did not ask for forgiveness will go to hell. (Here we are back to square one, yet again!!!)

Well every country has their laws. These laws has nothing to do with God’s laws. A person commits a sin like rape that becomes a sin in God’s eyes and a criminal offence according to the Law. For sin the punishment is hell and for a crimnal offence the punishment is prison. Now if that man repents, realising his mistakes (maybe because he read a Bible) and accepts Jesus and asks for forgiveness he is forgiven. But if goes to the court of law and and declares that he repents, they are obviously not going forgive his puishment. Therefore he has to serve his period. I don’t think that is very difficult to understand.

Incorporating the Nag Hammadi texts and various other esoteric books expunged by the various synods mentioned above… back into biblical interpretation… the idea of a real sacrifice becomes more apparent. Real in keeping with the story.

Jupiter.. the main god of the old testament required blood sacrifices. The sacrifices were required to atone for malfeasance and allow the subject to achieve the higher levels of the corporeal heaven above hell. Going from memory… from one of the gospels if the Nag Hammadi… Jupiter or possibly Saturn sits in judgement at the 7th heaven.

Jesus being the son of the most high god incorporated into the material universe in order to bring the sophia to the people entrapped in the material universe by the Demiurge or Saturn… The shedding of Jesus’ blood was necessary in releasing the spirit which preceded to raze the foundations of the incorporeal bonds limiting the human spirit to hell and the other heavens… to the 7th.

Annv good point you’re making, there was nothing special to him, according to history, there were as many as 500ppl crucified per day! (According to a few of the other religions at that time, also other resurrections, babies born of a virgin ……same thing) Sound like the “in thing” for that time

But please help me out on this one as well: Jesus became “a disciple” like John, but only close to the age of 30. My opinion is: he only then learned about “this God” and was so intrigued by this specific religion (and there were many) so decided to be baptized. After this he started his own “group” of followers.

I have to wonder: According to the people at that time – (Before the crucifixion) if a person committed a sin and prayed, did he pray in vain??? He would have still be caste to hell??? Even for a sin like lying, cheating or swearing. Because “no one died for their sins yet”
After the crucifixion it is now possible to go to heaven even for sins like murder and rape??? Now that sounds fair to me lol

Now why would anyone before the crucifixion believe in god, knowing they are praying in vain, because they are off to hell in anyways? They just HAD to kill someone to proof their point (which they didn’t manage as yet) My only explanation for this is, they really didn’t think much further than: Fighting for control over land, Baking bread, building houses out of stone and making babies! (This is still evident in some under developed countries today)

This brings me to the next point:

What would religious people do if today: Some guy out of Africa/Egypt/Mexico claims to be Jesus and has to be crucified for the world’s sins and God has sent him down to us, because of all the Evil? Would they crucify him on his demand? Would crucifixion be to cruel for a god to die, would it be the gas chamber, hang by the neck or a gun shot? How could they possibly know, he is not a faker? Especially when he already have a crowd of followers (like Jesus had), how much more confusing? (maybe thinking: what if I am wrong, I’ll be in hell :-o or what the heck, if I am wrong after killing him, I will ask god for forgiveness)

A rational person, would compare this situation and their emotions with the ones people (at that time) had. But our civilized brains would tell us, that it is simply Barbaric and pure stupidity offering your life, for murderers and rapists to be forgiven after remorse!!!

jimahl said: Please answer this amblessed, because according to you, there is nothing I could do that would allow me into heaven. Why would god punish people for something they can’t control?

NOWHERE did I say ‘nothing’ you could do - try reading it again: “ For God so LOVES the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that >>> whosoever believeth in him <<< should not perish, but have everlasting life. “

As the verse says, if you believe in God’s Son, Jesus Christ, that will allow you jimahl into Heaven - it IS your control whether or not to accept or reject Jesus - only difference between you and me…I’ve had my sins forgiven and my name is recorded, along with all believers, in The Book of Life…available to you - I know you and others here will probably laugh, scoff, put down my faith and my Savior for saying this - and that’s ok, to be expected, but I pray daily for everyone here and hope they remember me in their’s.

“it IS your control whether or not to accept or reject Jesus”

No it is is NOT. You are missing the point. I cannot make a choice to believe in jesus anymore than you could choose to start believing in allah. I know what your belief is all about. You do not need to explain that part of it to me. I know it is meaningful to you, but I am trying to discuss it on an intellectual level, with out the dogma. Can you do that?

greed Anny & actually, he didn’t die, that is, if you believe in the shroud. Supposedly the shroud was found & it portraied blood trails, bleeding, dead men don’t bleed. It’s theorized that He wasn’t dead, rather put in a coma state.

When talking about the death and resurecction of the Christ you cannot take into account the Shroud because it has not been established that the shroud was the one used on Jesus.

Ah, thanks miscegenymiser

only difference between you and me…I’ve had my sins forgiven and my name is recorded, along with all believers,

Hmmm maybe not anymore Amblessed, didnt you just Judged Jimahl???

A Quote you might already know:

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

Anny Yeah, someone who knows information on the subject ^_^

Nice advice miscegenymiser, but from my understanding, I don’t believe biblical religions believed in the Gods of Rome. Where might you of obtained information to come to that conclusion out of curiosity?

Thex13thxchild,

Ah… the shroud…! My favorite subject. I suppose that you are referring to the one in Turin (there are so many of them)?! I studied that a bit… interesting subject (I only partly agree with you, by the way). I’ll come back to that when I have more time… promise!

Toedaly,

Very plausible. Complex matter from a historical point of view. There are many theories.

Jane-of-the-Jungle (good to see you back!),

Great points you make. Love to react; running out of time. Promise to do it soon…!

The idea that Jesus is a sacrifice does not fit with the idea of the crucifixion. It seems to me, these were two conflicting ideas harmonized together later on.

IMHO, the passion was probably originally a symbolic story representing the suffering of the Jewish people in the late 1st century, where Jesus symbolizes faithful Jews.

agreed Anny & actually, he didn’t die, that is, if you believe in the shroud. Supposedly the shroud was found & it portraied blood trails, bleeding, dead men don’t bleed. It’s theorized that He wasn’t dead, rather put in a coma state. Rosemary & rue were put on his body to help with his wounds, herbs wtih extreme healing properties that are still used in modern medicine. Rosemary will leave that type of brown stains portriad on the shrouds. Supposedly, according to this one man’s theory, after a few days he came out of the coma & moved on. It would explain the empty grave & why people claimed he came “back to life”.

Amblessed… random point again: ‘… You can’t outlive Him…’

Yes I already did (that is if his historical existence is factual at all). More than 2000 years now!

Ok… bonus-reaction (and after this I feel I would waste my time with your nonsense…); ‘…You can’t live without Him…’

Yes I already did. For nearly 3 decades now…!

So amblessed, you are actually saying that this loving god of yours will cast good people into the fires of hell because they found the stories in the bible a little far fetched, and found no evidence that such a fantastic story could possibly be true.

I have no choice in believing what I believe. I know what you believe, but no matter how much I tried to tell my self it was true, I would never believe it. And even if I pretended to believe, wouldn’t god know I really didn’t believe.

Please answer this amblessed, because according to you, there is nothing I could do that would allow me into heaven. Why would god punish people for something they can’t control?

What was so special about Jesus’ sacrifice ? Simple: It was and is man’s only hope to gain Heaven for all eternity and avoid destruction, as stated here: “ For God so LOVES the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. “ - note just being a good person or works won’t get you there.

You can’t outlive Him You can’t live without Him The Pharisees couldn’t stand Him when They found they couldn’t stop Him Pilate couldn’t find any fault in Him The witnesses couldn’t get their stories To agree Herod couldn’t kill Him Death couldn’t handle Him And the Grave couldn’t hold Him And He’s coming back That’s the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Jesus !!

This is a story. The Bible was modified at Synods - entire chapters were taken out from the Bible, while others were significantly modified. Jesus’s execution wasn’t special, he was punished as any other thief. I think his execution needed to be spectacular (so it was modified to thrill & impress people). This is way they’ve given so many details, because nowadays people consider those practices something shocking and barbarian, even if, in fact, it wasn’t something extraordinary for that period.

But please help me out on this one as well: Jesus became “a disciple” like John, but only close to the age of 30. My opinion is: he only then learned about “this God” and was so intrigued by this specific religion (and there were many) so decided to be baptized.

Actally Jesus had met some preists and had held a discussion with them and they marvelled at his knowledge. That was all when he was just 12. This shows that he already knew who he was but was Just waiting for his tme to bigin his work. So your assumption is not right.

I have to wonder: According to the people at that time – (Before the crucifixion) if a person committed a sin and prayed, did he pray in vain??? He would have still be caste to hell??? Even for a sin like lying, cheating or swearing. Because “no one died for their sins yet” After the crucifixion it is now possible to go to heaven even for sins like murder and rape??? Now that sounds fair to me lol

Well at that time when a person commited a sin he usually did not pray for forgivness but offered the sacrifice according to the law. Some of them did pray for forgivness but the only way the sin was taken off them was by an appropreate sacrifice. Here I am talking about the Israel people.

What then about the rest of the world, you would ask. Everyone has a conscience. The consience tells them about right and wrong. If they obey their concience and repent for what they think is wrong, they were forgiven.

God wanted to show us that we can’t make it to heaven weather He gives us a set of rules (as in the case of Isaelites) or He does not (as in the case of others). Because it is not possible for man to live obeying all the 10 commandments nor does anyone strictly obey his concience. But this does not mean, that no one prior to Jesus went to heaven. Many did, and a study of their lives will show, that their faith in God was the reason for that. But after the comming of Jesus He gave us a way to heaven by believeing in Him.

If we believe in Jesus Christ He will forgive us all our sins however big they are ( including murder and rape). Now people often recule this idea because they do not know the meaning of believeing in Jesus. The mistake they make is take the english dictionary meaning of word “believe” and apply it here. No, we need to understand what the Bible means by that term. Believing in Jesus Christ means to trust him completly for everything. Therefor repentence, submission, humbling ourself etc. comes into play. When it’s meaning is understood in full, then we will not commit the sin that He has forgiven us or any other sins as well.

What would religious people do if today: Some guy out of Africa/Egypt/Mexico claims to be Jesus and has to be crucified for the world’s sins and God has sent him down to us, because of all the Evil? Would they crucify him on his demand? Would crucifixion be to cruel for a god to die, would it be the gas chamber, hang by the neck or a gun shot? How could they possibly know, he is not a faker? Especially when he already have a crowd of followers (like Jesus had), how much more confusing? (maybe thinking: what if I am wrong, I’ll be in hell :-o or what the heck, if I am wrong after killing him, I will ask god for forgiveness)

I do not know what religious people would do but Christians would just ignore him. Because our master has given us details about what a sacrifice is, howmany times it is needed and how to identify a fake.

No it is is NOT. You are missing the point. I cannot make a choice to believe in jesus anymore than you could choose to start believing in allah. I know what your belief is all about. You do not need to explain that part of it to me. I know it is meaningful to you, but I am trying to discuss it on an intellectual level, with out the dogma. Can you do that?

First you need to make a choice to know the truth. The problem is when people conclude (in matters of God) that they already have the truth. Such people cannot know the truth because they look at everything from their pre-defined notion. We are not Christians because we were one from the biginning. A true Christian is always one, who at one point in time has considered his position. Here I would like to say a few words about the word “Christian”. A Christian, is a person who has accepted Jesus as his saviour after knowing Him. So anyone who is born into what is known as a Christian family and got baptised because everyone in his church got baptised at his age, cannot be called a Christian in its true sense.