What is wrong with wanting proof?

flossheal, very well said, and I too can see your point. However, there is a mountain of evidence (even if it is somewhat intangible) that supports my “faith” in my wife’s love. I may have had some doubts early on in our relationship, but my experience over 24 years of marriage confirms it and I need no more proof. Demand is pretty strong word, and not really what I am doing. If someone told me they saw a UFO, I would ask if someone else saw it, or if there were pictures. If there was no corroborating evidence, I would not believe it. Is that being demanding? No, it is just looking at the facts, and the likelihood of it being true.

As mjax1979 said, with the stakes apparently so high with belief in the crhistian god, proof becomes more requisite, at least for me. I do not have the ability to just tell myself to believe. I would only be fooling myself. And wouldn’t god know that in my heart I really didn’t believe?

I mainly asked this to see if believers saw doubt and the need for proof as a weakness. I don’t think you do, based on your response. I don’t get the impression from you that you think I will go to hell. You probably think like my wife, that it certainly isn’t up to her to judge, and that the god she prays to would never cast someone to hell simply for doubting, or for not following strict dogmatic rituals. She has said that after she dies if she sees that myself, or her 3 sisters (also athiests) are being denied salvation based solely on non-belief, she would turn her back on him, because that is not the god she worshiped while alive.

I alway’s laugh when they say I’m going to hell, I just say I’ll see you there, lol. that pisses em off. science has been able to explain almost everything, even why religion was created. but seriously, thats my problem I just want some proof. Blind faith is just not for me. and I respect everyone and there beliefs but its alway’s the same. “you have to have faith”. “have faith”. I have faith in things when I have reason to, but unless he appears before me or turns my doctor pepper into goat piss for defying him, my mind is made up. have to give it to em though, sometimes I wish I could be religious, see my family in the after life, that would be cool. but I couldn’t spend the rest of my life bowing down before something that cannot be proven.

“there is nothing rong with wanting proof but if you look at the earth and all of his wonderful creations there is your proof think about how everything fits together so well”

That is not proof, that is supposition. You look at the end result and come up with the conclusion that it must be god, because it is too complex to have happened on its own. This response never ceases to amaze me. If there are billions and billions of stars, that have billions of planets revolving around them, the odds are that hundreds of millions of them will have the right conditions to support life, and the odds are that millions of those will have the right conditions to evolve advanced life forms, and the odds are that there are tens of thousands of those that will have conditions that will allow intelligent life to evolve. We are just lucky enough to be one of those places. After all, if it wasn’t no one would be here to contempate our existence as we are now.

And you don’t have to fear for or pray for me. I’ll be just fine.

I’d think you were pretty smart for asking such intelligent questions and not just accepting everything on ‘faith’.

What bothered me most growing up was that G_d did things like pillars of fire, separating oceans - major things - how come He doesn’t do that now? Why doesn’t He talk to us now? Where is He when things go wrong and bad? Why doesn’t He help those people that get hurt or sick?

Nothing is wrong with wanting a sign or proof. But be willing to search for answers and not just wait for it to come to you. Study, read, learn, talk to ministers, pastors, rabbi’s, priests and learn for yourself and make your own choices on your spiritual path.

Personally, I don’t believe in Hell or original sin. I don’t believe that G_d made us in His image and then made us sinful. Every baby born is a clean slate and can make choices about their life and how to live. This was G_d’s gift. Use it wisely.

there is nothing rong with wanting proof but if you look at the earth and all of his wonderful creations there is your proof think about how everything fits together so well so that we stay alive how the trees where here and perfectly here for us to breath how the gardens grow just so we can eat how it rains to keep the plants alive so we can eat and breath how the earth is in the exact spot from the sun and not a cm off how everything I so perfect nothing can explain that not the big bang theroy or evelution if there was not a god then there would be no earth nothing would exist I think that should be enuph proof for you and jesus loves you every great thing that happens in life is proof of his existance you your self is proof he exists try not to question him any more because there is a god if you want more answers please fun mail me and ill be glad to answer them my best but im not god myself so all I can do is re ashure him and piker you will laugph nowand joke about hell now but if you are not insurch for the lourd and you have no faith and you do not ask him to come into your heart and save you you will find out there will be no jokeing about hell im not judgeing you but Jesus loves you satin does not love you Jesus will never leave you or forsake you and wishing you could be religious is the first step try going to church and read the bible you need knolage of Jesus every one does im a christian and I still need knolage but you shall not know everything im just scared for you life I will pray for the both of you so that you shall no question the lourd Jesus love you and every one of his children ill pray that you both see the light

* “I presume you believe that your wifle loves you, jimahl. The ways that she shows that may be pretty intangible, and require some degree of faith”

I know this was directyed to jimahl, but I must point out that you’re equivocating the word ‘faith’ here.

* “but if you look at the earth and all of his wonderful creations there is your proof”

When I look at these things, I see no place for the handiwork of a god. Nature, with all its beauty, but also all its flaws and fragility, looks exactly how we would expect it to look if it were shaped by natural forces rather than divine design.

I too think that some believers consider the need for proof to be a sign of weakness. I believe that ties into their need to feel superior, not necessarily their belief in a god. I have also noticed that some believers seem to deny the theory of evolution to the point of fanaticism based on their fear of being wrong, not their belief in a god.

As a Native American before I became a Christian my people always believe in a Creator. His name was Kolenzuten(The Power above all powers) Now I am a Christian and I tell people Who is the Poser above all posers. We can argue til we are blue in the face, everyone knows there is a God there is part of them that cries out for him to prove himself so they will know. They know or they wouldn’t be trying so hard to find the proof.

lol theres nothing wrong with wanting proof however, I dont beleive in and kind of “god” and even if there was (but will never be) proof of his existance I still wouldnt beleive anything different to what I do now not everyone is looking for proof and I feel like everyones beliveing in something they dont have any proof of but thats my opinion. and I stick by it.

“if there was not a god then there would be no earth nothing would exist I think that should be enuph proof for you “

Even if I did accept that the universe was designed by an intelligent being, I have literally thousands of gods and creation stories to choose from, some of which are at least more thorough than the one in Genesis.

But to answer jimahl’s original question, yes, I think believers consider needing proof a sign of weakness. It goes back to the Biblical account of the apostle Thomas doubting that Jesus really did resurrect. His doubt is treated as a lack of faith.

The problem is, many Christians seem to miss the point. In the story, Jesus still appeared to Thomas, giving him physical proof to answer his doubts. Did it not occur to any of them that millions of others would also have their doubts, especially since they live in later times? Why don’t the rest of us get the benefit of seeing Jesus miraculously appear in front of us?

The moral of the story seems to be, if you’re Thomas, you’re lucky. Everyone else can either have faith or be screwed.

I wrote a reply to this last night, but my computer went down. I think the reply was something like this:

I totally accept everyone’s right, and in truth their duty, to question, doubt and search. I personally find those who can believe without any form of questioning rather frightening. The kind of faith that I really admire is that of the Psalmists, who cried out in torment and anguish: ‘Why, God?’, rather than feeling that they could only talk to God whilst pretending that everything was fine and straighforward in their lives.

But there comes a time when questioning and demanding more tangible proof is excessive. I presume you believe that your wifle loves you, jimahl. The ways that she shows that may be pretty intangible, and require some degree of faith from you. If you found that her companionsip, her care and her committment were not enough for you, and instead you demanded constant ‘proof’ from her that she loved you, I guess you’d find that the relationship would deterioriate pretty quickly, instead of grow. Demanding more ‘proof’ in those circumstances would be a sign of paranoia, not of love.

I’m not saying that demanding tangible ‘proof’ of God is paranoid, but I am saying that we all accept, in our everyday lives, rather immeasurable and unquantifiable things, such as love, trust and hope. You could not give ‘proof’ to me that you love or that you hope, but we would all accept that you can do such things. We just know from our own experience that such things exist.

So there is nothing wrong with wanting proof, but you can take it too far, demanding every ‘t’ to be crossed and every ‘I’ to be dotted when in fact life, and faith, are not really like that.

Why do theists ALWAYS seem to confuse ‘proof’ …with ‘evidence-that-I-think-supports my beliefs’

well its that people don’t want to be told something is right without KNOWING its right theres a huge difference between teaching and understanding nothing is wrong with wanting proof people want to know that what they think is true and proof backs it up. nobody wants to be told something that, in this case, is so life controlling without anything to back it up because it could be a bunch of people controlling the minds of the masses for all anyone knows

flossheal:

I see your point, but according to Christian teachings, God’s plan of salvation through Jesus Christ is the bottom line, the meaning behind everything, the reason for the way things are. Given the importance we can and should expect there to be greater proof, or at least more convincing proof.

You can see how a god who leaves no direct evidence of his existence and little historical record of his main plan of salvation could cause many-millions-to be skeptical. In fact, we have every reason to demand more proof given how high the stakes are that Christianity describes.

because you are expected to step aside and join in the american stupor… pretty un-american actually… they throw all kinds of entertainments at us instead of keeping music and culture in our fibers… that way we wont get in the way of ‘important business’ that is government guaranteed to be of ‘little significance’…

what kind of business you ask? well you dont ask those kind of questions! geez know your role ya turkey!