What is up with the mormon religion?

Carol: I could not find 2 Peter but we are also partakers of the bread and fruit of the vine during Communion but we do not become them.

Me: Peter is towards the end of the New Testament. After Hebrews and before Revelations. Carol, you must realize that there are numerous Greek words translated into English as “partaker”. In the Greek (not the original, because we have NO original manuscript of a passage, word or book of the Bible), the word translated as partakers found in Peter is koinoneo, which means to become a partner, companion, or equal to. That definition is not found in relation to the Communion.

I really rather like Shepherd’s response here so I will reiterate that point and then address your other points..it went like this:

Tyler, it didn’t seem necessary to respond to all of your points since Caroline did quite well.

Perhaps I should deal further with your issue of being children of God who partake of His divine nature. There are communicable attributes which God can share with man — these would include His love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, et cetera. However, there are also incommunicable attributes which we will never share — such as, His self-originating existence, infinity, immutability, omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence. We can be perfect in godly character, but we will never be perfect in all the infinite perfections of God. I can be like God, I can never be God.

God has promised to give His children glorified, immortal bodies which will never die nor even suffer pain. But best of all: I get to see Him! That is what makes heaven heaven….I totally agree with this one too..AMEN..

Carol: shall be as His Master..does not mean shall be His Master..since when does a dog who copies his master’s mannerisms become the master..

I never said, nor does Paul allude to, us being greater than our Master. We will ALWAYS be subject to, as scripture attests, our Father. Scripture DOES say, as pointed out, that we will become “as” our Master. We will become perfect as He is.

I never said greater..but is a dog even the same as His master..I have never seen a dog turn into a human being even if some dogs resemble their owners.

Carol: You have not understood what Shepherd is saying..God is and always has been perfect..how can that which is already perfect BECOME perfect..it defies all logic and reasoning

Me: How can one who is “unchangeable”, change so much as pointed out? When we reach perfection, we will be called perfect, as our God is perfect. I don’t think you understood what I was saying.

Now you are really going against God’s word about Himself..He calls Himself unchanging and unchangeable..the only thing He is prone to change is His mind but that is a change that He instigated from the beginning…we are already perfect but also being made perfect through Christ but that means perfect humans…not perfect Gods..there is only one true God who is, was and always shall be Perfect.

Carol: God is God and if by some miracle He can empty Himself of His divinity and become another one of us..but without sin..and only God could be without sin..then sobeit..who are we to question His abilities..all we know is that Jesus is the only person to have a divine and human nature rolled into one..we just have the human nature but we emulate the divine one and so become Godlike without becoming God..God is the one God and He does not have any clones running around..

Me: It isn’t matter of question, He DID, as you say, “empty Himself of His divinity”. You say that Jesus is the only on to have a divine and human nature. I agree to a point. We have a human nature, but, we have the ability to have a divine nature as Peter says. What you are saying is going against scripture.

Please refer to Shepherd’s reply to this here

We are “sons of God” as spoken about in the scriptures. As Paul says, we are “children of God. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ..” (Rom. 8:16-17) We will inherit what God has, we will inherit what Jesus inherited.

yes we do inherit eternal life like Jesus and with Jesus..that is guaranteed

When does a child not grow up to be what his parents are? We are children of a God, and have the ability to progress to what He is. Just as earthly parents go, we will never out grow our parents, in the heavenly realm, we will never be above our God.

We do not grow up to BECOME our parents..are you not very much a seperate individual from yours? or are you a clone of your parents?

Ziggy’s head is probably swimming. We can take this offline…

Caroline, you are free to funmail me.

Hi Shepherd

Glad you were able to identify more passages from the Book of Mormon which indicate the belief in the Church of Jesus Christ that there is just one God. – they are pervasive. I’m also glad you saw fit to document what I had already freely acknowledged and explained; namely that members and leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ do not get all anal if we sometimes speak of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as “plural Gods”. This never occurs in canon and could be best characterized as something I have already acknowledged., a common parlance practice. The chore for you is to go back and actually respond to the explanation I originally gave, making sure to address the rather unsavory implications for your own theology when you never, ever allow yourself to think of God in the plural.

Rudy

“The metaphysical insanities of Athanasius, of Loyola, and of Calvin, are, to my understanding, mere relapses into polytheism, differing from paganism only by being more unintelligible. The religion of Jesus is founded in the Unity of God, and this principle chiefly, gave it triumph over the rabble of heathen gods then acknowledged.” – Thomas Jefferson, equating the Dogma of the Trinity with polytheism and calling it more unintelligible than paganism, in his letter to Rev Jared Sparks upon receipt of the latters’ latest book (November 4, 1820)

Tyler, then what other God is there to become or turn into if not God the Father?

Certainly, the historical context of Isaiah 43:10 was the sad tendency of Israel to follow after pagan “gods made from wood and stone.” And it is also true that when the Lord said: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED,” that no “gods made from wood and stone” had ever been fashioned prior to His existence — for He never had a beginning. However, the Lord then could not have added: “NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME,” if He was simply referring to “gods made from wood and stone.” There were plenty of “gods made from wood and stone” all over the place — and they were all formed after He has been existing. God could not deny that. Consequently, it has to mean something beyond that. More than anything, God wanted Israel to realize that He alone was truly God. Therefore, the Lord is emphatically declaring that there has never been a true God in the universe who existed before Him, or was in existence now; nor will there ever be any true God come into existence later on.

Perhaps I stand corrected..sure hope so because all the mormons that have come to my door have called Jesus another prophet and refuted His deity to me but as a sinner you cannot follow His teachings perfectly and must depend upon His finished work at the cross for your complete forgiveness and acceptability to God..it is not a chance thing..it has been guarranteed

and Jesus must be recognized as the only ever perfect person and perfect God equal to Father God to exist..we are only considered perfect through Jesus having taken and suffered the punishment for all of our sins..past, present and future ones..and replaced them with His purity and rightness before God

Good..now we are getting somewhere by establishing facts..and it is true then that no person can become God the Father or can become the one true God so they must either remain as persons…perfect persons in some cases or turn into false Gods..I think logically they turn into perfect human persons…so we agree finally that the socalled Mormon doctrine of deification is complete and utter garbage..

Rudy, a cult is not a dehumanizing term..it is a description of a kind of organization that is applicable to certain groups so it is being a Christian to present the truth which is as sharp as a sword..even Jesus lumped certain people together when He called them scribes, pharisees and even a brood of vipers

Tyler where precisely does it say in Scripture that the eternal children of Father God stop being the eternal children of God and become God the Father..I defy you to find scriptural support for that rubbish…

Hi Caroline

Glad I was able to disabuse you of that misrepresentation you created/preached!

sincerely

Rudy

Rudy, I do not understand what you mean by children usurping God’s position..I don’t know any true children of God who try to usurp His position except for those who think that one day they will actually BE the Father and no longer be the children..

Thankyou Shepherd because if your research is accurate then Mormons are not worshipping the God of the bible and the true Jesus after all so they are not Christians as supposed by the statements of Idsblogger

Carol, you do not bring up ANY arguments that haven’t been sufficiently answered. You look past the evidence and the scriptures, to maintain your current beliefs. I hope that works for you. God bless, Tyler

Hi Rudy!

I am sorry that you have completely miscontrued my statement on resurrection. I try to keep these comments brief, so apparently I was not clear. I apologize for my ineptness. If you can find it within yourself to do so, please be patient with me, and I will attempt to respond more adequately.

The Bible speaks of more than one kind of a resurrection. There is the regular resurrection where the deceased individual comes back to life, and is restored to an ordinary, human existence. In the Old Testament, we have the examples of the widow’s son at Zarephath (I Kings 17:17-24), and the son of the Shunammite (II Kings 4:32-37). During the ministry of Jesus, we have the examples of Jairus’ daughter (Mark 5:35-43), the widow’s son at Nain (Luke 7:11-16), and Lazarus (John 11:7-45). This kind of a resurrection provided each of these individuals with an extension of their life here on earth. Eventually, each one passed away again.

However, there is another kind of resurrection mentioned in the Bible. It is, in fact, called “a better resurrection” (Hebrews 11:35). Jesus Himself was the first one (as so far, the only one) to experience this resurrection. This is why the Apostle Paul states that Jesus is “the firstborn of the dead” (Colossians 1:18). Obviously, as we have already seen, this cannot mean that Jesus was the first one who ever rose from the dead. No, but He was the first person to rise from the dead who will never to die again. In fact, Paul uses the example of Christ’s resurrection to describe for us the characteristics of this “better resurrection” which true believers can expect to enjoy:

Philippians 3:30-21 — “For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ; Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.”

Paul develops this theme in his first epistle to the church at Corinth:

I Corinthians 15:52-54 — [52] “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. [54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, ‘Death is swallowed up in victory.’ “

Therefore, those who experience this “better resurrection” will receive glorified, immortal bodies. As with Jesus, they can never die again. Hallelujah! It is in this sense that Paul declares the resurrection of Christ to be “the firstfruits” of this better kind of resurrection (I Corinthians 15:20, 23). The term “firstfruits” refers to the first product or the earliest produce of a harvest. Paul then goes on to state that the rest of this specific, resurrection harvest will not occur until the Lord comes back:

I Corinthians 15:23 — “But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.”

Consequently, those who belong to Jesus will not experience this better resurrection before the Lord returns. This means that none of those who have resurrected since the end of our Lord’s earthly minstry ever enjoyed this better resurrection. That would include the saints in Jerusalem (Matthew 27:52-53), Dorcas (Acts 9:36-41), and Eutychus (Acts 21:9-12). But, praise God, it’s coming! The time draws near when all of the redeemed will experience the “better resurrection” whereof the Bible speaks. With glad anticipation we look forward to the fulfillment of this blessed hope of the church (Titus 2:13). Until that glorious day, we can pray, along with the Apostle John: “Even so, come, Lord Jesus!” (Revelation 22:26c).

Instead of arguing who is right and who is wrong here.. how about you go to www.mormon.org and find out for yourselves. They just added a cool addition where you can chat live with a Mormon missionary online. So you don’t have to see them in person. There is no proving who is right and who is wrong.. and bible bashing gets us nowhere… so go find out for yourselves if you are not willing to listen to an LDS person yourself and accept the answer that’s given.

LDSMous <– Mormon for 6.5 yrs

drogger you are making this too easy..since you think you are so right..makes you rather self righteous..and an agnostic on top of that..a rather dangerous combination..a self righteous agnostic is one who thinks he knows but makes out that he doesn’t when in fact he should know better than that

no…I have had my fun drogger and you have proved my point

ALL HAIL CTHULHU!!!

Carol

When Shepherd uses slurs so casually, I worry whetehr he has a heart for Jesus. It worries me whether the Evan religion is is becomming as extreme as the Islamic religion? You seem to be willing to argue for Shepherd’s and your right to use slurs a bit too agressively. Aren’t you concerned that such hostility as we see in you can only really come from the adversary?

Sincerely

Rudy

Rudy, where you have been shown that the offspring or children of God remain that way through all eternity and do not become the one and only God, The Father of those children and where you have been shown that there has been a physical resurrection of some and shall be again in time future..you cannot deny the truth of it so you attack and criticise the bearer of the truth…that is sad for you I hope you realize.

Hi Carol

I’ve said what I need to about Evans being able to so casually 1) misrepresent the position of others (e.g., saying children usurp God’s position) , 2) take the Bible out of context (e.g., denying obvious Biblical accounts of resurrection), and 3) invoke slurs in conversation with others (speaks for itself).

That was pretty much my purpose here in theis thread – to remind you to be more honest and Christ-like and less prideful in your witnessing. I’m afraid pride has caused you to compromise. :(

Sincerely

Rudy

Hi Carolyn

I’m not sure what gives or why you are so sensitive when I point out that Shepherd is oddly capable of very casually resorting to dehumanizing ad hominem, i.e., the word “cult”. That just seems odd for a someone who claims Christianity. My hunch is he is an evangelical and not a Christian. What do you think about his agression?

Sincerely

Rudy

I did not change the subject. I merely responded a statement made by the LDSblogger:

“We believe that the Book of Mormon is the word of God and that it is a proof case for the calling of Joseph Smith.”

Yes, there was a resurrection in Matthew 27:52. They all came to life in ordinary human bodies, as did Lazarus and Dorcas. In this way, God extended their lives on earth. But since no one gets a glorified body until Jesus returns, their earthly lives eventually came to an end.

Caroline has completely misstated what Mormons believe. Why don’t you ask a Mormon what he or she believes? Oh wait! Hey, I’m a Mormon.

• I believe that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and the Son of God. He paid for my sins through the atonement in Gethsemane and on the cross. I believe that if I follow his teachings my life will be changed, my sins forgiven and I will have a chance to return and live with him and my Father in Heaven again.

Ziggy - perhas you could be more specific and indicate how your perceive Mormons to be cult-like? Have you ever attended a Sunday meeting at a Mormon church? I don’t think anyone could leave a Sabbath meeting with the Mormons and come away thinking they are a “cult”.

As to riches – I’m not sure what you base that on either? I’ve been a Mormon all my life and I can’t say that Mormons are any more wealthy than others.

Again, Caroline, your insinuation about Mormons is, frankly, insulting.

Shepard, I’m glad you can insert your own definitions of words. Resurrection is more than a raising of the dead, but, the raising to an immortal body. This concept was taught, and accepted by the early Christians (See Irenaeus book 4 Against Heresies). These saints were part of the first resurrection (Rev. 20:6). If there is a first, then there is a second as well.

You have yet to answer ANY of the points I have made, and do await them.

You say: We can be perfect in godly character, but we will never be perfect in all the infinite perfections of God. I can be like God, I can never be God.

Me: Please show me through scripture. Rhetoric is pointless, especially when it’s not grounded in scripture. The Bible says that we wil be “perfect”. When something is perfect, there are NO flaws. (By the way, I never said we would be “God”, as I pointed out numerous times before. This reveals your looking past my arguments). So, as a comparison on what the Bible says will await the righteous:

    Jesus Christ            Saints

Crown Rev. 14:14 James 1:12, Rev. 2:10, 4:4, 10

White robe Mat. 17:2, Mark 9:3, Luke 9:29 Rev. 6:11, 7:9-14

Scepter Heb. 1:8 Rev. 2:26-27

Throne Rev. 3:21 Rev. 3:21

Heir of God Rom. 8:17 Rom. 8:14-21, Gal. 4:1-7

Son title Heb. 1:5, 5:5 John 3:1 Rom. 8:14, 16, John 1:12,

    Phil. 2:15, 2 Peter 1:4     1 John 3:1-2, Gal. 3:26

King and priest John 1:49, Heb. 3:1 Rev. 1:6, 5:10

Perfect Mat. 5:48 Mat. 5:48

One with God John 4:11, 17:20-21, 10:30 John 17:21-23

There are quite a few similarities here. When you read some of the early fathers, Irenaeus for example, who followed Polycarp, who sat at the feet of John for decades, and had a better insight than most, said we would also share in his glory and kingdom. In summary, we will be perfect Mat. 5:48, sit on a throne with God Rev. 3:21, will inherit ALL THINGS Rev. 21:7, be joint-heirs with Christ Rom. 8:16-17, become a divine nature 2 Peter 1:4, become as our master Luke 6:40 and Heb. 12:23 (Carol, if you have a problem with this, take it up with Paul, it’s coming straight from him), and many more. The comparisons are astounding. Then there are the countless number of quotes from those who learned firsthand from the Apostles, and those who learned from them, the EXACT same thing. It is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, Pseudopigrapha, Apocrypha, and other early Christian writings, and something that even CS Lewis believed! There comes a point when the evidence stacks so high against you that you need to make a decision. Either pretend I didn’t say it, or must have mis-interpreted it (which nearly 100% of the critics do), or actually study it out on your own and see if there really is something to it.

Thank you, Caroline, for standing with me in this.

One does not need to read any further than the introduction to the Book of Mormon to discover the fallacious nature of this volume. It all boils down to one, simple question:

WHO IS MORONI ?

The LDS church claims he was the last of the supposed Nephite prophet-historians (around A. D. 400) who allegedly hid some sacred records on gold plates in a hill called Cumorah. The introduction to the Book of Mormon categorically states:

“On September 21, 1823, the same Moroni, then a glorified, resurrected being, appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith and instructed him relative to the ancient record and its destined translation into the English language.”

However, the Holy Bible emphatically declares that except for Jesus Himself, no one else will be resurrected with a glorified body until He returns:

I Corinthians 15:20-23, 51-52 — “But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming…. Behold, I shew you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

Philippians 3:30-21 — “For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ; Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.”

I Thessalonians 4:16-17 — “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the arch-angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

(See also: Romans 8:18-23 and I Peter 1:3-7, 13)

Christ has not yet returned. Therefore, according to the above Scriptures, it is utterly impossible for Moroni to be a resurrected man with a glorified body. This then suggests that Moroni, in reality, could be a deceptive familiar spirit. Since Joseph Smith was definitely involved with the occult, such would be quite possible. He was convicted of fraud in his practice of divination on March 20, 1826 in Bainbridge, New York — just 2½ years after his alleged encounter with Moroni. Divination is severely condemned in Scripture (Deuteronomy 18:9-14). Obviously, Joseph Smith went to the wrong source for supernational revelation. The Apostle Paul warned us that Satan has the power to transform himself into “an angel of light” (II Corinthians 11:14).

Carol

Your comment about Peter is too precious. I’d jump in, but this one is needs to be his to respond to. I look forward to hearing Tyler helping an Evangelical out.

Rudy

On Sunday, June 16, 1844, Joseph Smith said:

“The doctrine of a plurality of gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible. It stands beyond the power of controversy. A wayfaring man, though a fool, need nor err therein. Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many. I want to set it forth in a plain and simple manner; but to us there is but one God — that is, pertaining to us…. The heads of the God’s appointed one God for us; and when you take [that] view of the subject, it sets one free to see all the beauty, holiness and perfections of the Gods” {quoted in “Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,” pages 370, 372}.

His successor, Brigham Young, said:

“How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not passing though the same ordeals that we are now passing through. That course has been from all eternity, and it is and will be to all eternity” {quoted in “Discourses of Brigham Young,” arranged by John A. Widtsoe [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Compnay, 1954], pages 22-23}.

Orson Pratt, a member of what the LDS Church calls “the original Quorum of the Twelve Apostles” (not to be confused with the twelve Apostles in the New Testament), said:

“If we should take a million of worlds like this and number their particles, we should find that there are more Gods than there are particles in those worlds” {quoted in “Journal of Discourses,” Volume 2 (Liverpool: F.D. & S.W. Richards, 1854; reprinted edition: Salt Lake City, Utah, 1986), page 345}.

Are these polytheistic views really supported by Holy Scripture? Were there other Gods in existence before our God became God? Have other beings become Gods since then?

I realize that the Lord did tell Moses —
“See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet” (Exodus 7:1).

But this is figuratively speaking of the great awe with which Pharaoh would view Moses. Because of his apparent supernatural abilities, Moses would seem to be a god to Pharaoh. It does not mean that Moses literally became some kind of deity.

Furthermore, the Lord also told the elders of Israel — “I have said, ‘Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High’ “ (Psalm 82:6).

However, notice the very next verse —

“But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes” (Psalm 82:7).

So even though these leaders possessed god-like authority, as did Moses, the Lord declared that their end would be just like any other human ruler. So none of them were “Gods” in the ultimate sense of the word.

If the Lord meant that human beings could become Gods who were equal in power and glory to Himself, then He contradicted Himself when He later told Israel —

“Ye are My witnesses,” saith the Lord, “and My servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He: BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME!” (Isaiah 43:10).

There was only one perfect human in the history of mankind….Jesus Christ

one may aspire to be perfect, but they’ll never attain it

For the umpteenth time, we will NEVER become God the Father. Again, I implore you to read past statements. Tyler

true in one sense amblessed but true that God sees us as perfect and without sin because our sins are completel forgiven through Christ’s death on the cross

Shepard, Are you Pentacostal by any chance? It seems that you may hold a modalistic point of view on the Trinity. Am I correct in saying so?

about time you showed up Shepherd..it feels a bit like being a lone sheep amongst wolves without your backup

Righter and righter! Go CAROLINEHAMPTON!!!

Call me some more names!

(me rubbing my hands gleefully)

I’m Mormon. We all do well because everyone in the church, or mostly everyone, pays tithes and offerings. they aren’t required to, and there’s no paid clergy in the whole church, but it is all by free will. When everyone willingly does their part, it results in great blessings! You should check out The church! It’s he one true church on the face of this earth. I’m dead serious. Yes, the Mormons are Christians! We believe in God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. you could go to the website and get ALL of your questions answered by other Mormons if you’d like. go to www.mormon.org. They can answer ANY questions you guys have about us. K?

Shepard, The problem with the cut and paste from anti-Mormon web sites is you lose the context. BY said “I have never yet “preached a sermon and sent it out unto the children of men, that they may not call it scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon. And it is as good as scripture as they deserve.” Joseph Smith did not “correct” any of his sermons to be called doctrine. This quote is nearly 30 years after his death. I do not doubt the quote from Joseph Smith, as I’ve generated plenty of evidence for it, but the method you use I would disagree.

mormons are frikin awesome

Amblessed, I agree that perfection will not be obtained in this life. There is nothing in your statements to which I disagree.

I could not find 2 Peter..I could find Peter..

Never been called a wolf before.

Just as we will be part of the divine essence as Jesus points out John 17:20-22.

there’s always a first time for everything:)

Shepard writes: none of them can become God by nature (Galatians 4:8).

Me: Does Peter not say that we will be “partakers of the divine NATURE”? (2 Peter 1:4)

Now me: I could not find 2 Peter but we are also partakers of the bread and fruit of the vine during Communion but we do not become them..

Shepard: There is an unbridgeable gap between the Creator and the creature.

Me: Luke 6:40–“The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is PERFECT SHALL BE AS HIS MASTER”

now me: shall be as His Master..does not mean shall be His Master..since when does a dog who copies his master’s mannerisms become the master..

“To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just MEN made PERFECT,” (Heb. 12:23) I believe that is self explanatory. yes human spirits are not deity..they remain PERFECT HUMAN SPIRITS

Shepard: Yes, some Christian writers have used this term in reference to our consecration, sanctification, and ultimate union with God. But they did NOT mean that one could actually become God Me: That is false. I would recommend you actually reading the texts of the early fathers (in context) as I have, and you will see otherwise. And please do not quote “wikipedia” as a final reference for truth. That will only encourage shoddy scholarship. now me: there is no need for the testimonies of men when the Scripture is the inspired source of revelation anyways..so who are any of these folk including yourself to contradict the truth of scripture..Adam was the first created perfect human being but he was not God..neither are any of his seed other than Jesus.

Shepard: God is immutable because He is perfect, and has always been so. Since one cannot improve on perfection, any change would make Him less than perfect, and then He could not be God.

Me: In Mat. 5:48, Jesus commands us to be perfect as God is perfect, and, as shown above, there will be perfection in men, which will make them “as their master”. So, if we can become “perfect”, why couldn’t God as well?

Now me: You have not understood what Shepherd is saying..God is and always has been perfect..how can that which is already perfect BECOME perfect..it defies all logic and reasoning..

Shepard: At the burning bush, the Lord told Moses, “I AM THAT I AM!” (Exodus 3:14). This phrase reveals the absolute, and consequently, unchanging nature of God. He is the God of the eternal now. So He has always been what He is, as He shall always be.

Me: What do you mean by nature? Would it be the same divine nature that Peter tells us we will partake in? After we are perfect? Or would it be the changing nature of God descending to earth, taking up a mortal body, FORGETTING his divine past and learning “wisdom” from man (Luke 2:52), and being “ministered” to by angels (Mat. 4:11)? Is this how you would explain unchanging? How about when He died, and spent 3 days in Abrahams bosom as a spirit before receiving a resurrected body? Is that unchanging? Now me: God is God and if by some miracle He can empty Himself of His divinity and become another one of us..but without sin..and only God could be without sin..then sobeit..who are we to question His abilities..all we know is that Jesus is the only person to have a divine and human nature rolled into one..we just have the human nature but we emulate the divine one and so become Godlike without becoming God..God is the one God and He does not have any clones running around..

This statement appears above: “We are children of a God, and have the ability to progress to what He is”……..If you’re talking in this life,This is absolutely false (see verse below)….Even at our very Best we are still unworthy…arrogance of man and deciet from the Great Deciever (Satan) would have us believe this to detract man from Jesus…Satan’s purpose is to take as many as he can to Hell and damnation

We must come by way of the Cross.

John 3:3……… Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The answer to ALL life’s questions can be found in THE BIBLE…just look at the evening news today, then look at the book of Revelations…they read the same…it appears JESUS return is near…please don’t be left behind

John 3 : 16

I was just browsing around today and happened upon this Question. I gotta admit that I am shocked by Shepherd’s aggression – shame on him! He started out using dehumanizing language as if such were technical terms acceptable in common discourse. Fortunately, ldsblogger joined in and his presence seems to have moderated the hate language of Shepherd, albeit the arrogance associated with believing FOR another still peaks through . I hope he has learned a lesson – as the foremost leader of the Evangelical church recently learned, taking your pants down when you think no one is looking is naive, prideful, and offensive to the innocent. :(

Carolyn, why do you encourage him?

Rudy

From what I remember (read a small bit of the “book of mormon” a long time ago) their claim was that the founder - J Smith - found these golden tablets that were later stolen / hidden, etc…that detailed Jesus trip to the Americas when he was teaching the Native Americans. Moromi? or something was the prophets name, or maybe the guy that Jesus supposedly hang out with in the Americas, but either way, it’s pretty close to a modern day fairy tale.

Though, there are those that say if it could happen to Moses, etc, thousands of years ago…why not a few hundred years ago the discovery of Jesus in the New World?

Why, just last night, I was having tea with God (he likes to be called “g-dawg”) and he was telling me that if you listen to dogs, very carefully, they’re actually reciting the book of mormon backwards.

What a group says about God determines whether they are a cult. Christians believe that God has always been God. Mormons do not. Joseph Smith (their founder) taught: “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens…. I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea…” {Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, pgs 3-4}. Joseph Smith also believed that there are other gods who exercise authority over our God: “In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it” {Jounal of Discourses, Vol 6, pg 5}. Less than two weeks before his death, Joseph Smith added: “The heads of the Gods appointed one God for us” {Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg 372}. So Mormons believe that after God the Father became a god, the gods who were his superiors appointed him to be particularly over this planet. This is heresy. The true God has always been and always will be God. He never had a beginning. He is eternal. He rules the entire universe. He did not start as something less than God, and then grow into Godhood. God the Father was not originally a man. The are no other gods over Him who have told Him what to do. Since the god of Joseph Smith is not the God of the Bible, and the Mormons serve the god of Joseph Smith, then the Mormons are a cult. It doesn’t matter whether Mormons use the same terms or names in referring to their god, their finite, mutable god cannot be the true God. Just because you call a dandelion a “rose,” it does not make it a rose. It’s still a dandelion. Likewise, the god of the Mormons will never be the God of the Bible. Furthermore, Joseph Smith’s teaching that their are gods who are superior to our God indicates that they are polytheistic. That, in itself, makes them a cult.

I love this thread! My sister is a Mormon, and I am an Agnostic (that’s greek for Fool, I believe) and I never understood religious belief. One of the reasons is because I don’t understand the origin of the scriptures. Everyone is using the scriptures as a basis for what they believe (with some additional personal revelations thrown in in some cases) and everyone seems to believe that the scriptures are THE WORD OF GOD, without any flaws or misinterpretations. So here is my question:

How can you be sure that there are no mistakes or blatant, politically-motivated corruptions of the bible?

The “original texts” no longer exist and the document has been translated from Aramaic, to Hebrew, to Greek, to Latin, to German and then every other language. There have been religious leaders and emperors with complete and total control of the words in that document at many periods in time. How can you POSSIBLY trust it as an absolute word of a deity? If I printed a book that approximated the Bible, but was very wrong at several critical points, the text would not just magically rewrite itself after the ink dried..It would still be wrong 100 years later.

Aren’t there even several “versions” of the Bible in circulation right now? That is ridiculous! If you tried to teach a chemistry class where every student had a slightly different book, it would be pandemonium!

My question leads me to my biggest concerns about religion; If you can’t be sure about where your information is coming from, then you must be VERY CAREFUL how far you are willing to go in following the beliefs you create from it. YOU are fallible, and you should understand that weakness in yourself and exercise a great deal of restraint and common sense when it comes to the practical application of your faith. This means no murdering people because you think God would want you to, or banning someone elses religion because you feel you have received THE ULTIMATE PROOF because God spoke to you. You may be experincing a sel-induced hallucination!

Someone help me out here. Explain to me why common sense seems to go out the window when it comes to this particular book. Thanks.

firstly humans becoming God is certainly taught in the Scriptures..it was the original lie of satan to deceive Eve and looks like it deceived more than just her..secondly God could never have been once like we are now because we are sinners and He never was or ever could be

Wow… I’ve never seen so many Answers on one Topic.

I use to go to an LDS Church my self, I do not attend any more, due to my personality being changed by the blast of enegry sent through my body last June when I was involved in a horrible accident… A light was shown to me, and I was given instructions.

I was told to give a message to all, That All are a piece of the puzzle, that we all do not have it right, no one is perfectly right…

I attempted to ask who was? What should I do? How can I present this & what am I doing?

I was told to be patient and it will come to me. I am still waiting…

Listen, my take is this…. There is a higher power & we will all find our own comfort in some form, however this constant delegating and fighting is wrong. So We should all live without this contestant battle.

BE happy, live your lives & stop being so worried about what your neighbor is doing.

Caroline, you are correct about Romans 8:11. The fact that the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in us does NOT make us deity. You are also right to declare there is just ONE true God.

It may come as sad news, but I must inform the LDSblogger that the Godhead is complete. No further applications are being taken for Godhood. Angels (Psalm 97:7,9), and even people (Exodus 7:1; Psalm 82:6), may be called “gods” in a limited sense, but none of them can become God by nature (Galatians 4:8). There is an unbridgeable gap between the Creator and the creature. The real hope of a Christian is to become like God (I John 3:2), but one will never be God. I will never possess the divine attributes of omniscience, omnipotence nor omnipresence.

The word “theosis” never occurs in Scripture. Yes, some Christian writers have used this term in reference to our consecration, sanctification, and ultimate union with God. But they did NOT mean that one could actually become God — with all His attributes. The LDSblogger wouldn’t tell you, but even Wikipedia (the on-line encyclopedia), states: “The doctrine of theosis or deification in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints differs significantly from that of orthodox Christian theology.”

Furthermore, the LDSblogger uses Psalm 45:6-7 to prove that God the Father has progressed into Godhood. However, according to Hebrews 1:8-9, it is really what God the Father said to Jesus His Son. But even this does not describe some kind of progress into Godhood. Jesus possessed that with the Father before creation (John 1:1; 17:5).

God is immutable because He is perfect, and has always been so. Since one cannot improve on perfection, any change would make Him less than perfect, and then He could not be God.

At the burning bush, the Lord told Moses, “I AM THAT I AM!” (Exodus 3:14). This phrase reveals the absolute, and consequently, unchanging nature of God. He is the God of the eternal now. So He has always been what He is, as He shall always be.

You see this is not a matter of learning history. This is a matter of endlessly swallowing and throwing up the contents of a CREDO.

Learning history is an admirable thing, because its based on learning facts.

Hi Rudy!

You will be delighted to know that I agree with the quotations on the Godhead which you made from “The Book of Mormon.” I could even suggest others:

“And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.” (II Nephi 31:21).

“…every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame…and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God…” (Alma 11:44).

In these instances, “The Book of Mormon” clearly presents the doctrine of the Trinity in total agreement with historic Christianity.

However, you’ve got a bit of a problem. On Sunday, June 16, 1844, in a sermon given less than two weeks before his death, Joseph Smith said:

“I will preach on the plurality of the Gods. I have selected this text [Revelation 1:6] for that purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods…. I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods…. Many men say there is one God: the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhow — three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization…. All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God — he would be a giant or a monster” {quoted in “Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,” pages 370, 372}.

It would seem that you are now in the incommodious but necessary position of choosing between either “The Book of Mormon” or Joseph Smith. Which one is correct?

Sigh….. Carol, as I stated in that same post, I did not bring that up to offend. If I wanted to offend, I could have put the same phrase in a very nasty way. But, I was being honest. I did not say you were ignorant in any way, but tried to put it as nice as I could without causing offense.

Carol and Shepherd – Seems you got the ball rolling by using dehumanizing slurs to characterize what is important to others, namely., the very Church of Jesus Christ! Will you belly up to the bar and apologize and remove that kind of aggressive apologetic from your arsenal and be a force to remove it from the arsenal of Evangelicalism?

Rudy

you are right that it is not good to belittle a person just because they were unable to find a passage of Scripture in a bible that survived a cyclone but has pages fused together perhaps..in a simillar way the three persons of the trinity are fused together as ONE God and not three…

I am glad to hear you are not modalistic. I believe, as did the early Christians, that in one sense there is one God, or Godhead, yet in another, there are 3 Gods. God is obviously God, Jesus Christ is called God 1 Tim. 2:3, and the Holy Ghost is called God Acts 5:3-4. Without each other, the Godhead wouldn’t exist as it is. As for others on the board, let’s try to keep the ad hominem attacks on the down low. If there is to be true dialogue, the other will not listen if you are constantly belittling that person, or their beliefs. Tyler

majorly good points Shepherd..I think I shall be waiting around for an eternity if a wolf is going to help a sheep find an epistle..bear in mind that my bible is very different from anyone elses in the entire world

Although I do acknowledge the Biblcal validity of Spirit baptism as it occurred on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), I am NOT modalistic.

Modalism teaches that there are three roles but only one state of consciousness within the Godhead. According to this view, God sometimes operates in the role of “the Father,” sometimes in the role of “the Son,” and sometimes in the role of “the Holy Ghost.” Those who teach this doctrine are correct about one thing: There is only ONE God. They are to be commended for that. However, modalism ignores the Biblical revelation of personal distinctions within the Godhead.

The doctrine of the Trinity seems strange to us because man in uni-personal. We know there is only one of each of us. However, Scripture reveals the three-fold self-differentiation of God. This means that God is tri-personal.

I believe in the Tri-Unity of the Godhead — that three distinct but interprentrating states of consciousness exist simultaneously within the ONE indivisible divine essence. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost DO NOT divide that essence into three separate parts (as in splitting a pie three ways), but instead share the whole divine essence together. Thus is is but ONE God.

Hi Shepherd

You said: “It is correct that the LDS Church does teach a polytheistic version of the “Trinity.” They think that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are each separate beings. However, the Bible clearly teaches there is just one true God — that is, ONE, divine being.

Me: it is also correct that the Evangelical Church teaches a polytheism – that is precisely what Trinitarianism is. 1+1+1= 3 no matter what you can finesse with wordplay. Is it too much to ask for Evangelicals to be honest about this?

Having illustrated your vulnerability, let me also document for you that the Church of Jesus Christ believes that God is one – that there is one God. Our scripture makes that very clear – in addition to the Bible, the Book of Mormon clearly says:

“And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen. “ — Testimony of the three witnesses

Mormon 7: 7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

But we just don’t get all anal about it if in common parlance we sometimes equate “person” and “God”. When you and other Evans DO get anal about the distinction Shepherd, the only conclusion that members of the Church of Jesus Christ can make about you is that to you, the mysterious, simple, and singular substance you ascribe to God is MORE important than the three persons, who we should have relationship with and worship, both singularly and collectively.

So Shepherd, what’s it like for you to have a primary relationship with a substance anyway? Members of the Church of Jesus Christ just couldn’t fathom that. And so if in our evlevation of the three persons we sometimes shortchange the inanimate, I think God will forgive us. The question is whether He will forgive you for having a primary relationship with an IT and worshipping that IT over Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. I get queasy just thinking about what is best described as idolatry. What don’t you get?

sincerely

Rudy

Unbiblical? Carol, I am not saying this to cause offense, but It’s hard to accept someones view on the Bible, or Biblical history in general, when they couldn’t even find Peter in the Bible. I can accept you saying “from what I’ve read in the Bible, I believe…”, but it truly is hard to do so otherwise.

being one iwht God is like a husband is one with his wife..they are still seperate identities..but it is a nonbiblical idea if you hold to the Father, son and Holy Spirit being 3 individual Gods..they are ONE God and 3 distinct persons…3 rolled into one..

It is correct that the LDS Church does teach a polytheistic version of the “Trinity.” They think that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are each separate beings. However, the Bible clearly teaches there is just one true God — that is, ONE, divine being.

The doctrine of the Trinity was developed as an attempt to preserve the unity of the Godhead, while acknowledging Biblical revelations about the plurality which exists WITHIN that singularity. The Apostle John states:

“No man hath seen God at any time; THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, which IS IN THE BOSOM OF THE FATHER, he hath declared Him” (John 1:18).

Jesus Himself said:

“Believe me that I am IN the Father, and the Father IN Me: or else believe Me for the very works’ sake” (John 14:11).

So the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost do not exist separately as do humans, but live IN and though each other. Although in the physical realm, there can be separate manifestations (Luke 3:21-22), in the spiritual realm, there can be no real division of the ONE, divine essence.

Hi Shepherd

I see you are still reading your own private interpretations into the quotes you came up with and still ignore the Biblical context. I would encourage you to read those quotes in light of the Biblical evidence. Let me remind you that believing (inaacurate things) FOR others is bearing false witness. :( So let me repeat for you the Bible context lest you continue to brazenly risk offending God:

We were created in the image of God God is the father of our spirits We are the offspring of God Christ calls us gods Man has become as God We will inherit all things We will be co-heirs with Christ of all things We will have glory We will have thrones We will be filled with the fullness of God We will be partakers of the divine nature of God We will be one with God We shall be like Him Our bodies will be fashioned like His glorious body We can gain perfection

No offense intended, but I’d like you to contemplate whether you don’t want to treat the Church of Jesus Christ honestly, because if you did you’d loose a perfectly good boogyman of the Evangelical Church’s creation – a boogyman created to bring unity to a fatally contradicted Evangelical church.

Oh: I’d like to bring balance to this discussion – could you tell me about the Evangelical church’s polytheism? Real montheists understand that your “Trinitarianism is just a synonym for polytheism” – three is three any legitimate way one can count, no?.

BTW: I enjoyed your “pesher” interpretation of Isaiah 43:10. I’m just wondering by what authority you read your private interpretation into it? This will be very important for you to study on, if you intend to maintain your belief in the Evangelical Church, a Church I add that claims to be in lockstep with plain and contextual readings of the Bible.

Sincerely

Rudy

Here’s some interesting quotes:

Mark Nispel has recently studied the extensive use of Psalm 82.6 (ye are gods) in early Christological contexts, and has suggested that this may be the origin of the idea of deification. The evidence of the Latin authors, who know of becoming god only in the context of the Christological argument of Psalm 82 indicates that the theology of Christian deification, while drawing upon Hellenistic ideas, arose chiefly out of the exegetical debate over Psalm 82.6 (Mark D. Nispel, Christian Deification and the Early Testimonia, Vigiliae Christianae 53 (1999): 302).

Gerald Bonner, who has written frequently about deification in Augustine, writes that the text which Augustine, in common with the Greek Fathers, takes as specifically teaching deification is Psalm 82.6. While no modern scholar could build a theology of deification on such a scriptural foundation and expect to be taken seriously, with the Fathers, however, the case was different. (Bonner, Augustines Conception of Deification, Journal of Theological Studies (1986): 369-385, at page 371). Stephen Duffy refers to Psalm 82.6 as the well-worn patristic proof text for deification and refers to its use by Irenaeus and Origen ( Stephen J. Duffy, The Dynamics of Grace (Liturgical Press, Collegeville, Minn. 1993): 55).

In Norman Russells recent study of Cyril, the Bishop of Alexandria (died > 444), there are several references to his use of this Psalm as a defense of the deification of humankind (Russell, Cyril of Alexandria (London > 2000): 20-1 (=101), 107, 126). Russell has also pointed out that Irenaeus was the first to equate Ps 82.6 with Pauls teaching about the adoptive sonship of mortals. It was then taken over by Athanasius and Clement of Alexandria as a major defense for the teachings on deification (in Russell: 229, note 17, and 240-1, note 28).

As for the Isaiah reference, it is speaking of gods made from wood and stone. See the following scriptures for correct context: Isaiah 41:29, 42:8, 43:10, 12, 24 , 44:8, 9, 10, 17, 19, 45:9, 12, 16, 20, 22.

Christ calls us gods in that we have mastership over the creation but not in the sense that we are the Creator or divine in any way, shape or form…you seem to think that we become little gods..no..we become perfected humans..big difference..

Hi Caroline

I’m unsure why you keep misrepresenting the Church of Jesus Christ and ignoring the Bible.?? No matter what you or any other motivated Evans say, members of the Chruch of Jesus Christ will always continue to believe the Bible. You too can come to a knowledge of the Bible and accept that:

We were created in the image of God God is the father of our spirits We are the offspring of God Christ calls us gods Man has become as God We will inherit all things We will be co-heirs with Christ of all things We will have glory We will have thrones We will be filled with the fullness of God We will be partakers of the divine nature of God We will be one with God We shall be like Him Our bodies will be fashioned like His glorious body We can gain perfection

These Biblical teaching are what the Church of Jesus Christ means by “deification”. Now I need to invite you to stop bearing false witness by extrapolating more for no other reason than to be a contrarian who is like that out of a need to feel superior at the expense of another.

May God bless you

Rudy

Hi Carol

In your November 7 10:05 post, you seem to assert that Mormons believe that children “become the one and only God”. In my subsequent post I called you on this issue of your believing (incorrectly) FOR others – for saying Mormons believe they can “usurp God’s position”. Subsequently, it seems clear you to want to cling to that program where you believe FOR others things they actually don’t believe.

So Carol, like I said, you seem to feel zero compunction against waht really in esense is bearing false witness? Now given the quote Tyler presents, why is that?

My experience with Evangelicals indicates that agressively ascribing incorrect beliefs to others Is a subordinartion tool (what’s happening to you) and a bullying tool (what’s happening to me). In short, It fosters contrived feelings of superior in your position while at the same time unjustifiably making your adversary uncomfortable about his position.

I don’t this this is healthy or well balanced for you and so I would I encourage you to disabuse yourself of feeling the right to believe FOR others.

sincerely

Rudy

I will quote a leader of today then I will say goodbye ““The Father is the one true God. This thing is certain: no one will ever ascend above Him; no one will ever replace Him. Nor will anything ever change the relationship that we, His literal offspring, have with Him. He is Elohim, the Father. He is God. Of Him there is only one. We revere our Father and our God; we worship Him.” (Boyd K. Packer, Ensign Nov. 1984 pg. 69)

Again, your questions HAVE been sufficiently answered. Please read my past posts. goodbye.

Hi Shepherd

You said: I am sorry that you have completely miscontrued my statement on resurrection.

Me: My fault huh? you said no one except jesus has yet been resurrected. In order to construe that kinda biblical interpretation you adopt less than parsimonious biblical interpretations of events recorded in Matthew. And you must also completely ignore the interpretations of the Early Church Fathers (as Tyler pointed out). It’s hard for me to trust you when you go out on a limb like that. It’s hard for anyone. Ti mirror your apologies, let me just say that I am sorry if take the Bible out of context. :(

You said: The Bible speaks of more than one kind of a resurrection. There is the regular resurrection where the deceased individual comes back to life, and is restored to an ordinary, human existence. In the Old Testament, we have the examples of the widow’s son at Zarephath (I Kings 17:17-24), and the son of the Shunammite (II Kings 4:32-37). During the ministry of Jesus, we have the examples of Jairus’ daughter (Mark 5:35-43), the widow’s son at Nain (Luke 7:11-16), and Lazarus (John 11:7-45). This kind of a resurrection provided each of these individuals with an extension of their life here on earth. Eventually, each one passed away again.

Me: The bottom line is you are turning an assumption of yours into the truth – and basically mocking others for NOT accepting that kinda “truth”.

Proper hermeneutics demands more, the gentleness and respect Peter speaks of demands more, and frankly, so does the Savior. demand more from you.

Sincerely

Rudy

In answer to your statement:

Carol, in answer to your dog scenario, we are called the offspring of God in Acts 17:29. Would it be wrong to say that the child would grow up to what the parent would be? The Greek term for offspring is “genus”. Which means race or descent. So your analogy doesn’t work. Like I said earlier, if you have a problem with the scripture, take it up with Paul. I’m just quoting him

you are missing one major point in your understanding of us being the offspring of God..and that is that we are creature offspring…we did not come from His divine substance but rather from the dust..Jesus on the other hand came from both divine substance and dust.. this dust will through Christ take on immortality but never in Scripture does it say that we as offspring will take on divinity..you are adding to Scripture if you hold to this view.Thus we remain offspring of God for eternity..He is the eternal Father and we are His eternal children..we will certainly not become Fathers ourselves..

Shepard, I’ve enjoyed our chat. I doubt we will be able to come to an agreement. So, we must agree to disagree. Perhaps we can meet up again to continue our conversation, or a new one. They are always thought provoking. Feel free to funmail me if you have any questions about Mormonism. God bless, Tyler

esconsult1, You’ve got a point. So, in answer to the original question, we are not strict or cult-like. We believe in keeping the commandments of God. We are not overbearing, but do believe in following the Savior. I can attest that Mormons are not all rich. Of course, just like any religion, club, or other organizations, there will be wealthier people, and poorer people. We do believe in paying tithes as Malachi points out, which go to building churches, maintaining them (electricity, water, etc…) Temples, and in some cases, assisting missionaries. There is nothing out of the ordinary in our Church, and invite you to attend one of our meetings so you can see for yourself. There are plenty of critics out there, but, there were plenty of critics of Christ 2,000 years ago as well. Nothing new. You can learn more about our beliefs at the official LDS website at www.lds.org.

Dear Livy,

I am sorry you feel so neglected. I may have focused on others, but I have tried to respond to you, as well.

I enjoyed your Scripture references.

I feel like I have dealt adequately with resurrection.

On perfection: Check out the context when Jesus told His disciple, “Be ye perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” The subject there is love — how God loves the just and the unjust. Likewise, we are commanded to be perfect in love as is God. If we just love those who dot the theological “i” or cross the theological “t” as we do, we are not perfect.

On being like God: Perhaps you have misunderstood me. I do believe in our ultimate union with God. We are to share His authority throughout eternity — ruling and reigning with Him. However, this union will not make us into Gods equal to God Himself. Those who teach that are polytheistic. That’s all I’m saying. You asked for a Scripture, here it is (I gave this before, but perhaps you missed it):

“Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God!” (Isaiah 44:6)

When the Lord says, “I am the first,” He means there never was any God before Him. When He says, “I am the last,” He means there will never be any God after Him. He is unique.

I hope this helps.

Carol, in answer to your dog scenario, we are called the offspring of God in Acts 17:29. Would it be wrong to say that the child would grow up to what the parent would be? The Greek term for offspring is “genus”. Which means race or descent. So your analogy doesn’t work. Like I said earlier, if you have a problem with the scripture, take it up with Paul. I’m just quoting him.

Hi Shepherd

Don’t like Matthew 27:52, 53, huh? So you say it refers to lengthening lives as opposed to resurrection. You’re way off if parsimony is important to you:

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

You abuse the Bible with your Evangelical revisionism – when you deny the resurrection of so many. This is wriong – fortunately, the 33,000 Evan denominations in America today with fatal differences on this and most everything else expose your ruse/movement as illegitimate.

I’ve noticed that evangelicals like to try to pull fast ones like that to feign some sort of superiority. I do not find it Christ-like. It’s bearing false witness plain and simple. Why do you think Jesus is against your bearing false witness Shepherd? Do you think He needs you to lie for Him?

sincerely

Rudy

So here we have the perfect reason why on the one hand, the United States is such a great place to be, and on the other hand why large swaths of the world are in turmoil.

We can have a perfectly sane discussion about religion here. In other parts of the world no doubt you would be killed for doing it. On the other hand, members of this thread will surely break Godwins law if this went on for too much longer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law

Everyone here made some interesting points, but in a sense we’re now getting to the point where we’re talking past each other, and not understanding each other. Not reaching common ground.

I hope the original question was answered in some way? Hopefully by a Mormon?

Shepard, SInce you did not mention one of the objections I brought to your attention, I assume you concede the issue, otherwise, you wouldn’t have changed the subject so dramatically. You have used the Bible as you would a buffet. Choosing what you want and leaving the rest. While it is true, the majority of the people resurrected will be when Christ comes again, but there were those who rose with Christ in His resurrection. See Mat. 27:52. I was going to write more, but, don’t see the need to. God bless, Tyler

Carol: I could not find 2 Peter but we are also partakers of the bread and fruit of the vine during Communion but we do not become them.

Me: Peter is towards the end of the New Testament. After Hebrews and before Revelations. Carol, you must realize that there are numerous Greek words translated into English as “partaker”. In the Greek (not the original, because we have NO original manuscript of a passage, word or book of the Bible), the word translated as partakers found in Peter is koinoneo, which means to become a partner, companion, or equal to. That definition is not found in relation to the Communion.

Carol: shall be as His Master..does not mean shall be His Master..since when does a dog who copies his master’s mannerisms become the master..

I never said, nor does Paul allude to, us being greater than our Master. We will ALWAYS be subject to, as scripture attests, our Father. Scripture DOES say, as pointed out, that we will become “as” our Master. We will become perfect as He is.

Carol: You have not understood what Shepherd is saying..God is and always has been perfect..how can that which is already perfect BECOME perfect..it defies all logic and reasoning

Me: How can one who is “unchangeable”, change so much as pointed out? When we reach perfection, we will be called perfect, as our God is perfect. I don’t think you understood what I was saying.

Carol: God is God and if by some miracle He can empty Himself of His divinity and become another one of us..but without sin..and only God could be without sin..then sobeit..who are we to question His abilities..all we know is that Jesus is the only person to have a divine and human nature rolled into one..we just have the human nature but we emulate the divine one and so become Godlike without becoming God..God is the one God and He does not have any clones running around..

Me: It isn’t matter of question, He DID, as you say, “empty Himself of His divinity”. You say that Jesus is the only on to have a divine and human nature. I agree to a point. We have a human nature, but, we have the ability to have a divine nature as Peter says. What you are saying is going against scripture. We are “sons of God” as spoken about in the scriptures. As Paul says, we are “children of God. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ..” (Rom. 8:16-17) We will inherit what God has, we will inherit what Jesus inherited. When does a child not grow up to be what his parents are? We are children of a God, and have the ability to progress to what He is. Just as earthly parents go, we will never out grow our parents, in the heavenly realm, we will never be above our God.

Shepard writes: none of them can become God by nature (Galatians 4:8).

Me: Does Peter not say that we will be “partakers of the divine NATURE”? (2 Peter 1:4)

Shepard: There is an unbridgeable gap between the Creator and the creature.

Me: Luke 6:40–“The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is PERFECT SHALL BE AS HIS MASTER” “To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just MEN made PERFECT,” (Heb. 12:23) I believe that is self explanatory.

Shepard: Yes, some Christian writers have used this term in reference to our consecration, sanctification, and ultimate union with God. But they did NOT mean that one could actually become God Me: That is false. I would recommend you actually reading the texts of the early fathers (in context) as I have, and you will see otherwise. And please do not quote “wikipedia” as a final reference for truth. That will only encourage shoddy scholarship.

Shepard: God is immutable because He is perfect, and has always been so. Since one cannot improve on perfection, any change would make Him less than perfect, and then He could not be God.

Me: In Mat. 5:48, Jesus commands us to be perfect as God is perfect, and, as shown above, there will be perfection in men, which will make them “as their master”. So, if we can become “perfect”, why couldn’t God as well?

Shepard: At the burning bush, the Lord told Moses, “I AM THAT I AM!” (Exodus 3:14). This phrase reveals the absolute, and consequently, unchanging nature of God. He is the God of the eternal now. So He has always been what He is, as He shall always be.

Me: What do you mean by nature? Would it be the same divine nature that Peter tells us we will partake in? After we are perfect? Or would it be the changing nature of God descending to earth, taking up a mortal body, FORGETTING his divine past and learning “wisdom” from man (Luke 2:52), and being “ministered” to by angels (Mat. 4:11)? Is this how you would explain unchanging? How about when He died, and spent 3 days in Abrahams bosom as a spirit before receiving a resurrected body? Is that unchanging?

because Rudy he is not speaking any offensive language whatsoever..you are the only one slinging insults..you should be utterly ashamed of yourself..he was only discussing what these people hold to so you had no right to rip him like that

One can claim to be a prophet, and be successful in getting others to believe it (as did Mohammed), but that still does not assure us that he really has authority to speak for God. My opinion is as good as your opinion, but the Bible (66 books) is the final authority for us today.

As I said earlier: I do not deny that God can speak to us through prophets in our day. However, the Apostle John warns us: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world” (I John 4:1).

The only way anyone can “try the spirits” is to see if what that person says is corroborated by the Bible. God will not contradict Himself.

One does not have to be a prophet nor an apostle in order to try such an individual (Revelation 2:2). I have tried and found both Mohammed and Joseph Smith wanting.

I absolutely agree that some LDS theology “differs significantly from that of orthodox Christian theology.” But by Orthodox you don’t mean what the original church taught through the revelations given to Paul and Peter but rather what 4th, 5th and 19th century scholars decided was doctrine.

As discussed above and admitted by numerous non-Mormon scholars, the LDS doctrine of theosis is closer to original church teachings than what is taught these days… why? Revelation.

Doesn’t anyone want to take on the notion of authority? Nary a word yet to oppose me on this point.

Caroline and I are having a good discussion offline. I promised a follow-up answer to the subject of the theosis and the implications regarding the character of God.

We can separate theosis into two parts: a) man can become God and b) our God was once a man.

I think I’ve established early Christians, modern scholars and respected reference materials all admit that deification/theosis was a doctrine of the early Church.

Let me now treat part “b”.

The doctrine that God was once a man is not widely taught in the Mormon church. It is considered a deep doctrine that we don’t know much about. Much of what has been said in the past is probably by logical analogy – namely – if WE as men can become Gods then our Father went through the same process.

As Shepherd and caroline have noted, the scriptures are replete with references about God being from everlasting to everlasting. The scriptures also use the term “God” in differing ways. The very title given to God is Elohim which literally means “Gods”. Let me paraphrase a modern scholar on this subject:

If ‘God’ refers to a title or status then the notion of God being from everlasting to everlasting is accurate and even logical. For example, the ‘mayor of Boston’ is also a title, but it does not refer to any given individual. Instead, it refers to any person who hold a specific office.

In short, theosis was absolutely taught by the early Saints and the status of being “God” is indeed from everlasting to everlasting.

Going back to “what’s up” with the Mormon church:

* Mormons worship one God and one God only. 
* We believe that Jesus Christ is part of the Godhead comprising our Father in Heaven, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. 
* We believe that we are saved through the atonement of Jesus Christ and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. 
* We believe that the ordinances of the Gospel must be administered from someone called of God holding the holy Priesthood. 
* We believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God through whom God restored the Church of Jesus Christ on the earth. 
* We believe that the Book of Mormon is the word of God and that it is a proof case for the calling of Joseph Smith. 
* We believe that the keys of the holy priesthood have now been handed down and are now held by President Gordon B. Hinckley and the Twelve Apostles. 

I cannot prove this too you. But I can challenge you to read the Book of Mormon, pray and ask God whether it is true or not, and that he will speak to you through power of the Holy Ghost to confirm its authenticity.

ok perhaps we need to do a breakdown of your references..to begin Romans8:11….If then the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you then He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will through the spirit that dwells in you make your mortal bodies live…how is that speaking of humans becoming God..it is talking about the indwelling spirit of God who will cause the person in which He indwells to have a physical resurrection..doesn’t say that those who have His spirit become Him!! That would be a stupid interpretation!

Actually, I’m glad you responded in such a way. We agree that Judges are the arbiters of the law because of context and framework. But you missed one more characteristic: authority.

The reason we accept a Judge’s interpretation of the law is that the Judge has the authority. What authority are you acting under to declare my interpretation invalid?

If you were to ask me that same question I would respond: “revelation through prophets called of God.”

“Surely the Lord Jehovah will do nothing, except he reveal his secret unto his servants the prophets.” Amos 3:7

ldsblogger, you are very evasive..yes I do use the approach of Judges in the way they have a definition of the law and apply it to circumstances within the context and framework of that law..something which you seem to be disregarding in your approach and you are not allowing scripture to be compared with scripture so that it becomes self interpreting..you are just sidestepping the issues…why wait to tackle the important questions..they are simple…there is ONE creator God and He is THE ONE and ONLY supreme being who is the same yesterday, today and forever and never changes because He has always been perfect and is personified in Jesus who is not just a super human but fully God and fully human at the same time..there are numerous scriptural references to support this view that is held by the Christian church down through the ages..

This is fun!

Caroline. You and I probably share similar political beliefs (I’m guessing). One of those beliefs is that Judges must interpret the Constitution by its original intent. Many evangelical Christians attribute this same notion to interpretation of the Bible.

With that said I’ll simple refer to what noted non-Mormon scholar Ernst W. Benz has observed:

“One can think what one wants of this doctrine of progressive deification, but one thing is certain: with this anthropology Joseph Smith is closer to the view of man held by the ancient Church than the precursors of the Augustinian doctrine of original sin.”

Again, I’ll address the doctrine of our God’s progression in a post tomorrow.

For now I’ll just ask again: What authority do you claim indicating that your interpretation of the Bible is more accurate than mine? Especially, since mine is closer to what the early Christians believed.

Thanks for your response. I’m glad to head you have engaged in dialogue with members of the Mormon Church. Obviously, you need a little more discussion. :)

I only have time today to answer one of your disputes with Mormon theology. (I’ll tackle others tomorrow)

1. “God himself was once as we are now.”

This is accurate excerpt of a doctrine that was taught by Joseph Smith and other modern prophets in the Mormon Church. It is a deep doctrine that is taught very cautiously in the church. The doctrine of Theosis (man becoming God) is not new. Nor is it unfounded in the scriptures. According to modern Christian theologian A. N. Williams (not a Mormon by the way):

“What is human destiny? It is to become God. That, at least was the belief of the earliest Christians. Such an understanding is evident in the letters of St Paul (see Romans 8:11; 1 Cor 15:49; 2 Cor 8:9) and the first Christians found it in the pages of the Hebrew Bible (Ps. 82:6 quoted in John 10:34.)”

The notion of our God having traveled the path of Theosis is also evident in the Bible. Take for instance Psalm 45:6-7:

“Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.”

Early Christian fathers like Ignatius of Antioch, Augustine, Tertullian. Most importantly Iraneus held the belief of Theosis dearly:

“While man gradually advances and mounts towards perfection; that is, he approaches the eternal. The eternal is perfect; and this is God. Man has first to come into being, then to progress, and by progressing come to manhood, and having reached manhood to increase, and thus increasing to persevere, and persevering to be glorified, and thus see his Lord. “

So I have to ask. If many of the fathers of Christianity believed in Theosis why don’t you? How does your interpretation of the Bible and teachings of Christ exclude this? Why is it unfounded for Mormons to believe this?

Of course the answer to these questions can only be had through revelation and authority. What authority do you have that would trump Ignatius or Augustine or Ireneus?

I’ll tackle these questions later: Subordination of God; Polytheism; Everlasting God.

For more information on deification see here: http://fairwiki.org/index.php/Deification_of_man

Great discussion

Tyler, it didn’t seem necessary to respond to all of your points since Caroline did quite well.

Perhaps I should deal further with your issue of being children of God who partake of His divine nature. There are communicable attributes which God can share with man — these would include His love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, et cetera. However, there are also incommunicable attributes which we will never share — such as, His self-originating existence, infinity, immutability, omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence. We can be perfect in godly character, but we will never be perfect in all the infinite perfections of God. I can be like God, I can never be God.

God has promised to give His children glorified, immortal bodies which will never die nor even suffer pain. But best of all: I get to see Him! That is what makes heaven heaven.

I think that the doctrines or teachings are the entire basis of a religion and if they are sand instead of rock then the entire construction falls down..going by the teachings it appears that Mormonism has been built on sand..and what is the point of discussing anything with a Mormon who ignores the teachings of the Mormon church?

wow Shepherd….you certainly are an incredibly wise man..I have been greatly blessed to read what you have to say..thankyou!