Bible and Eagles

The eagle was the national symbol of Rome - which was the first state to experiment with democracy. The founding fathers picked that symbol for that reason.

Most of the ‘founding fathers’ were Deists, not Christians…

And there are several countries that’ve used eagles as symbols, including Nazi Germany in the 40s.

that’s what’s wrong with our aconomy every one is in everyone elses buiseness with thee religion and I tim everyone should kind there own buiseness unless they realy to want to learn a new religion don’t you agree?

Rickd, so many inaccuaracies and so little time.

“Why yes nocnil. A letter written by Thomas Jefferson to the Danburg Baptists, in reference to our First Amendment as ‘creating a wall of separation between church and state.’ “

By no means is that the only reference to separation of church and state.

“Our Government is secular, with principals clearly founded on Christianity,”

Absolutely untrue. As I said in my prior post, even the extremely devout John Adams said: ‘The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.’ Are you going to dispute the words of Adams, our first conservative president?

Most of the founding fathers disliked organized religion, even if they personally believed. Here are a few other quotes be our founding fathers:

Washington: “Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.”

Adams: “This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.”

Adams: “The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity.”

Adams: “. . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”

Jefferson: “History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose.”

Jefferson: “Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself.”

Jefferson: “It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism, he preaches the efficacy of repentance toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it.”

Franklin: “Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.”

Franklin: “The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.”

Franklin: “I looked around for God’s judgments, but saw no signs of them.”

Madison: “What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.”

Madison: “Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.”

Madison: “The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.”

Paine: “Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst.”

Paine: “Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.”

Do these men sound like men who were building a country and society founded on christianity?

“but this is not a secular nation with well over 90 percent of us believing in God.”

It depends on your definition of secular. Just believing in god does not make you religious. And certainly all 90 percent don’t believe in the same religion or god. That alone makes us secular in my opinion. Most of us do not engage in non-secular or religious activities, even among those that claim to believe.

“The key is, we are free to choose. ‘Congress shall make no laws which establish a religion or prohibits the free exercise there of.’”

We are not only free to choose, we are supposed to be free of governemt sponsorship of religion.

“Now I will express my opinion.”

What have you given so far? Facts?

“In a Country where Government and God had a interdependent relationship upon its founding and all though out its history,”

Uhhh, no… If government was interdependent with belief in god, then that would be government “establishing” a religion. The language is quite clear, as well as the founders intent.

“we are coming to a period where secular humanism is getting more press.”

Oh, please. In the 50’s, when the “them” of the time were communists, this country went off the deep end with religion, adding the under god in the pledge, and in god we trust on our money. Before that we had very little references to religion in our government.

“The secular humanists are winning small battles; ten comandments in the courthouse, no prayer in schools, take down the Christmas tree’s in town squares. - so yes! I believe The secular humainsts would like to suppress Christianity, but they will fail.

Putting the ten commandments in a court house, or forcing kids to take part in a morning prayer is government ESTABLISHING religion! There is a difference between suppressing it and not wanting it rammed down our throats.

Practice your religion all you want. Just keep it out of government.

Rickd - we are not governed by the Declaration of Independence– it is a historical document, not a constitutional one.

I dont know but it is a beautiful bird

I got no idea. bt the eagle is a beautifull animal to watch.

OKk LOL All this is over my head, but I will pass it on to my friend who wanted to know if anyone had any opinions or facts…Thanks so much to all who answered! :)

The Declaration of Independence was a declaration to King Gorge 3 that we no longer reconize him as our king. The Constitution is our law system.

Whrong again rickd. That is the ending of the declaration of independence, which is not the basis of our government. The constitution does not mention god even once. The only references to religion are the first amendment, and the clause that says there is to be no religius test to qualitfy for holding any office.

If you don’t buy that our founders wanted to create this government as non-secular, please show me some evidence of it. I have clearly showed you many examples of the founders distatste for religion.

“God is written in every founding document in our nations history.”

What else other than the declaration?

I agree with you gasmanobt3… we are to follow the laws of the land, UNLESS they break God’s laws. We need more Scriptually moral people as our governing leaders, but as long as they are actually IN Scripture and not way off on mumble jumble beliefs…I can see now days why it is seperated, (its sad that its come to that) but so many different beliefs and they have gotten so far away from God’s truth.

You cannot pull God out of the affairs of the state because, “Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God. and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.” Rom 13: 1,2. Plainly put: God allows people and appoints people to positions of leadership. Believe it or not. It was never intendend that God be removed from governmental affairs only man’s in his feeble attempts at doing things his own way.

Separation of church and state is a political and legal doctrine that government and religious institutions are to be kept separate and independent from each other.[1] The term most often refers to the combination of two principles: secularity of government and freedom of religious exercise.[2]

The phrase separation of church and state is generally traced to a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as creating a “wall of separation” between church and state. The phrase was then quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947. This led to increased popular and political discussion of the concept.

Yes this was copied from Wikipedia.

If you put God in politics and law you will undoutable go back to the burning times

“If most of the founding fathers were deists, then why was our country founded on Christian values?”

It wasn’t. It was founded on the basic concepts of civil rights, and that those who govern do so only at the consent of the governed. It was born out of the enlightenment, and was definately not based on christianity. Although many of the founding father were devout christians, some of the more prominent ones were not, including Franlklin, Jefferson, Washington, and Paine. And even the christian ones wanted a secular government. John Adams was a devout christian, but still said this: “The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”

We ARE a secular nation…

rickd, I did not say they all didn’t believe or pray (some didn’t, like jefferson). What I said is they did not build this countries foundation based on christianity, which is what you initially said. Not just belief in god. Their ideas were born out of the age of enlightment, where intellect and reason were the driving forces, and not dogmatic belief in dieties. There are so many more examples of the founders distaste for all organized religion, particularly christianity:

Jefferson: “Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.”

Jefferson: “It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests.”

Jefferson: “On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind.”

Jefferson: “The priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, are as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore.”

Franklin: “I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did.”

Franklin: “. . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.”

Franklin: “I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works … I mean real good works … not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing … or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity.”

Franklin: “When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, ‘tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.”

Franklin: “In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it.”

Madison: “Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.”

Madison: “Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects.”

Adams: “As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?”

Adams: “The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes.”

Adams: “God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world.”

Adams: “Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years?”

Paine: “What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief of this debauchery is called faith.”

Paine: “We do not admit the authority of the church with respect to its pretended infallibility, its manufactured miracles, its setting itself up to forgive sins. It was by propagating that belief and supporting it with fire that she kept up her temporal power.”

Paine: “I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.”

Paine: “All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.”

rickd, you claim that everthing I said is untrue, yet offer nothing to counter it. Please show me all of those quotes by the founders in which they state this government was based in christian ideals? If our country was founded on chrisitanity, then how come god or christ isn’t mentioned even once the constitution? And these quotes are not refering to only government sponsored relgion. They are talking about religion in general, and christianity specifically, being counter to what is best for a free society.

And what exactly do you mean removing God? Who is trying to stop you from believing in god, or from practicing your religion. What you want is public displays procaliming and extolling god and christ, and at tax payers expense nonetheless.

No offense, but you need to learn something about the history of this country, and what type of men the founders were.