Science vs religion

God created matter, that mutch is true. it can be debated as to how humans were formed but God does exist.

Nothing finite can be infinite (eternal). Since the universe is made of finite things (matter, time, space), it therefor must be created by something without time (timeless), thus making it eternal. If it is eternal, it must be infinite, and if its the Creator, it must be God.

The universe changes, and time is the measure of change. How many changes have happened before right now? If you claim an infinite number of changes (which is impossible because you can not have an infinite amount of finite things), it is a logically impossible to conclude we could ever have reached this moment in time. In a world of cause and effect (which we live in), there can not be an infinite regress (an infinite amount of cause and effect reactions to get to a certain cause).

Allow me to rephrase. Imagine that the Earth orbits the sun every 365 days (it does). Now, on Mars, a year is much longer than an Earth year, being 687 Earth days (basically double). So, for every 2 years of Mars, Earth has circled the sun approximately 4 times. Now, imagine that this has been going on for eternity. By your logic, they would both have circled the sun the exact same amount of times, because its been going on forever (this is clearly impossible). This shows the impossibility of an infinite regress, whereby there could not have been an infinite amount of (x) before right now, in a finite universe based on time.

Now, back to God. God exists outside of time, in Eternity. God created time, and time is irrelevant to Him. God is Eternal, not created. Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us. You have no other choice. Take a moment to think about that, remembering that it can not exist in time, that would be impossible. Time can not be eternal.

This thing that always existed would be considered Eternal, having transcended time, space, and matter, being everlasting, having always existed. If you argue this is impossible, I would argue the contrary; it is impossible for this Eternal ‘thing’ to not exist, because the alternative is that nothing existed, which could only produce nothing. So, something always existed, and is therefor Eternal.

Now, for something to be Eternal, it can not consist of time, because time must have had a beginning. We exist in a universe of causality, so an infinite regress is impossible; there could not have been an infinite amount of time before right now, because we never would have reached this moment in time. That means time had a beginning, and whatever created time exists without time, beyond time, in timelessness; Eternity.

So, this Eternal Creator, created time, and the universe. This Eternal Creator clearly is extremely powerful, because the energy of the trillions of stars in the known universe were created by this Creator. And obviously, the Creator is extremely intelligent, having created an intelligent being such as mankind and a world in which to populate with it.

@ nevets815: You have some misunderstandings when it comes to “infinity”.

“Nothing finite can be infinite (eternal).”

That’s not quite right. Any finite object can be divided into an infinite number of infinitesimally small divisions. The same is true of distances and lengths of time. For example, there are an infinite number of infinitesimally small time units between now and one minute ago. However far back you go, you can always divide the remaining time in half: 30 secs, 15 secs, 7.5 secs, 3.75 secs, etc. There are practical limits to the size of these units (in this case it would be Plank time) but that doesn’t mean that just because something happened an infinity ago that its impossible to arrive at the present.

“So, for every 2 years of Mars, Earth has circled the sun approximately 4 times. Now, imagine that this has been going on for eternity. By your logic, they would both have circled the sun the exact same amount of times, because its been going on forever (this is clearly impossible). This shows the impossibility of an infinite regress, whereby there could not have been an infinite amount of (x) before right now, in a finite universe based on time.”

This isn’t right. All infinities aren’t equal. :) Every infinite set has something called cardinality, which can almost be thought of as the size of the infinite set. In your example, supposing the Earth and Mars have been orbiting forever, the infinite set of Mars orbits would have a higher cardinality than the infinite set of Earth orbits. They’d both contain an infinite number of orbits, but because any timeframe you examined would show more Mars orbits than Earth orbits, you might think of the set of Mars orbits as a larger infinity than the set of Earth orbits.

This isn’t just an abstract concept either. Cantor proved that the cardinality of the set of all rational numbers (numbers that can be represented by a fraction) is greater than the cardinality of the set of all natural numbers (1,2,3…). Both sets are infinite, and their elements don’t correspond one-to-one, but there’s no contradiction.

These concepts don’t even apply when we’re talking about the Big Bang. It happened about 14 billion years ago. To think of something happening before the Big Bang is a contradiction, at least when you’re constraining yourself to our universe, because time originated with the Big Bang. Anyway, as desperatlynervous mentioned, even if you assume something led to the Big Bang, that’s not an argument in an of itself for that something being a god.

GOD created everything! Don’t you know!?! Just Kidding I swear!

There’s another theory I personally prefer more than the big bang

Two parallel universes collided & created this universe, the ripples of this universe creating the clumps of matter.

With the big bang theory, everything coming from a super atom-as the scientist cal it, who isn’t to say it can’t happen again at any given moment? With the God theory, who is to say there’s only one God? I mean hell, if one God was able to be created why not 2, or 10, or even hundreds?

What created this universe? A supper massive black whole in the middle of this universe. It condensed the gases & such aroud it till some chain reastion happened & caused it to explode some how & create a star(it’s been awhile sine I’ve last heard or researched that 1 so bear with me).

The earth, well supposedly two planets collided(there seems to be a pattern) collided. The smaller one was demolished & it’s remains created the astral belt & the planets on the inside of the astral belt.

The material of life more than likely coming from another planet. The substances necessary for life was found on a comment. Then evolution, yada yada & so forth

That’s what I believe in so far, lol

There’s a theory that Aliens had a helping hand in creating humans. Not saying I believe it, I don’t think I do, I’m just throwing it out there. Supposedly when the 2 planets crashed the one that survived needed to rpair it’s o-zone. When it returned after the after math it found that earth had an abundance in Gold(if you burn gold it repairs the o-zone lair, wear gold it helped improve intellectual ability). They morphed humans to be slaves(supposedly our evaluation was quick according to scientist, & this would explain it …sure…maybe). Supposedly every 3,500 years humans learned something new, & supposedly everything 3,500 years this plannet would come close enough to make an “invasion”. Though they backed off humans because we’ve grown in #’s 7 now they silently watch us Supposedly evidence supporting this would be stone tablets found in ancient Egypt & such describing the colors & certain details of the plannets in which only modern machines technoligy can do. supposedly some of the tablets depicts an alien specimen. When you think of it it’s just as tangible, actually more so tangible than some magical being coming out of no where creating everything in 7 days & creating a book(in which he forgot to mention the age of the dinosaurs & before them). But hey, maybe They are God(creepy thought @_@) Again, not saying I believe it, just throwing it out there.

What’s the probability of something like god even existing? Far less then the universe existing on it’s own. God just poofing into existence or existing forever I would imagine is 100% more improbable than evolution occurring or a natural existing universe.

Say the universe was designed, although there’s no reason to presume it was, as it has properties that would be expected. There’s overwhelming evidence that the creator wouldn’t be god, but lets just say an alien, and how did that alien come to be? Somewhere down that line you’d have to admit that a universe naturally existed, which proves that ours can.

You could say, “god designed the universe to behave like that” the universe bahaves simply how physics desires which is no more chance then getting wet when there’s a storm outside. Couldn’t a god design everything self-sufficient, instead of how it exists relying on the existence of something else? What would be the point for black holes and other things like quasars, the other planets have their own properties, did god individually sculp them too? There’s overwhelming evidence on earth and throughout the universe that the nature of things form naturally.

The most plausible explanation supported by most evidence is that the universe exists uncreated and gods are ancient mythology.

Nevets815,

“God created matter, that mutch is true. it can be debated as to how humans were formed but God does exist.”

Although it is impossible to Prove God, I do believe that God exists, but that it is a Deist God (one that does not meddle with the universe).

I don’t believe that God created matter or the universe as a volition. I believe it was created as a result of God’s energy. The universe/matter was created as a result of an enormous amount of energy exploding (or expanding) at the instant of the Big Bang. Everything, space, time, galaxies, stars, planets and life is a result of evolution from the instant of the Big Bang.

“Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us. You have no other choice.”

Granted, everything doesn’t come from nothing. Everything comes as a result of the expansion of immense energy into our universe which caused its expansion. The various “laws” of evolution caused/created everything within the universe. This energy (or precursor to energy) caused that that is but did not, outside of evolution, cause life.

    I hope you do not take offense,
    To that that's gone before;
    'Tis only that it's my two-cents,
    And not one penny more. §;o)

but this is the point im trying to prove “god created matter” prove it, mabe another type of matter created the matter we’re familiar with. just because what ever created everything MIGHT HAVE BEEN infinute dosnt mean it was god. yess you can have an infinate amount of changes, change IS infanite and unrestricted. saying that there is a set amount of change is like saying there is a set amount of time. and like I stated above you cannot create something out of nothing- I can wave my hands in the air, I can concentrate as hard as I can, I can yell at the air, I can try to strike the air, yet none of that will make a $100 bill apear out of nothing. ill address the rest tomorrow, I got school tomorrow and I have to get up early to catch the bus, lol.

I don’t think EITHER explanations are believable. But science has a better track record of providing accurate information, and in many cases, actually PROVING itself.

The earth and the universe are a composite of thousands of tiny “laws of nature”…tho mankind has been able to dissect many (or maybe most, who would know) of these laws…if just ONE of these laws disappeared, the universe would fall apart…this is where physicists, astronomists and other scientists ponder the endless question…God, or a Power?? Or not?

p

You can ignore nevets815. He just posted that screed encompassing his poor understanding of math, physics, the nature of infinity, etc, to over forty religion questions.

Oh… ‘nevets815’ likes quoting (but not referencing) stuff from YouTube also. But at the same time, both he (and Sean) still aren’t proving anything. They’re only defying their own god and religion.

I think with science everything eventualy leds to a point where the only explaination is a higher power. However I dont believe in the bible either. those are NOT the only options.

there could be a God - emphasis on the ‘COULD’ … noone will know until they die, but, for now, we know that there IS science and science is tangible.

If I hold out my hand and tell you there is an apple in my hand (when clearly there isn’t) you probably won’t believe me…but if a hundred other people believe it, then you will start believing it too.

“”God created matter, that mutch is true.”

Stopped reading right there.”

thats why “these people” want you to be ignorant

Science and religion aren’t very different. They both try to explain what goes on in the world, just using different methods. To the scientific people: How did everything come into being? Yes, the big bang, etc. etc… But how? To the religious people: If God created everything, then didn’t He create science too?

I belive in the big bang theory because even though it does have its flaws it is the only thing that makes more sense to me. I do not belive in god, because, tell me this how was god created? he couldent of created himself,no one else could of created him because no one could create the person who created god , then how did ‘god’ get all the ingrediants to create the world how could he just pull them out of thin air, if air existed , I think god I not real, he’s like a magician and god belivers are the 2 yearolds sitting in the audiance beliving his tricks however other people the non god belivers are the people behind the stage set, relizing the truth,relizing what tricks he has up his sleeve to get people to follow him

cthulhu: Good explanation of infinity, with a slight misconception: The number of orbits earth, mars, or anything else does in an infinite amount of time all have the same cardinality - they are the same infinity. The misconception of nevets815 comes from the fact that infinity is not a number. It doesn’t matter that they’ve done different numbers of laps - after infinite time, they have both done infinite laps. Since infinity is not a number, that isn’t a problem. Though it’s still mind bending. For example, the set of all positive even integers has the same cardinality as the set of all positive integers, even though intuitively, there’s “twice as many” numbers as even numbers.

I looked up god in a encyclopedia/dictionary at my school, and one of the definitions it gave was- “god can be defined as a set of laws or rules that govern and protect the universe” If stated like this then I would say yes there is a god, but as Richard Dawkins put it in ‘ The God Delusion ‘ “why pray to the law of gravity?” Another extract from ‘ The God Delusion ‘ that I find vary true- “If one person talks to an imaginary friend, hes called insane; but if many people talk to the same imaginary friend, its called religion.”

“God created matter, that mutch is true.”

Stopped reading right there.

actually yes men created the bible but they were guided by God’s spirit on what to write.

You’re right. I’ve been out of math class too long. :P