Is the Baptist Religion the same as the Mormon religion?

Baptist and Mormons are nothing alike. Mormonism is considered a cult not christianity. Mormons believe that they will become gods. Brigham Young said that “As Adam is God once was, but as God is Adam can become” He taught this for 20 years up until he died and it was taught for 30 years after he died. Then their prophet after 50 years of teaching denounce this belief as false teaching. My question to this is if The prophet after Brigham said this was false, then the Mormon church was not true for 50 years. If what he says is false according to what Brigham Young said, then the church today is false.

The Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan were spirit brothers and God wanted a plan for mankind. According to their belief he posed the question to Jesus and Satan as how to carry it out. According to their teaching He accepted Jesus’ proposal and rejected Satan’s. In their teachings Satan rebelled because of this and 1/3 of all the angels rebelled and this is where the black race came from. This is on a film called the God Makers that shows what they teach. According to the Bible Satan is a created being Jesus is God in the Flesh.

John 1:1-2 says that “In the begenning was the word and the word was made flesh and the word was God, The same was in the begenning with God. The name Immanuel which is used in Isiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord Himself shall give yo a sign; Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shalt call his name Immanuel” to tell of the comming of Christ, literally translates in the Hebrew language to mean “God with us”

The Bible teaches in the book of Deuteronomy 18:18-22 says this “I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptously: thou shalt not be afraid of him”. This is the Biblical way of checking out or conferming whether or not a person who claims to be a prophet of God is or isn’t. Joseph Smith the first “prophet” of the Mormon church made several prophecy’s that didn’t happen. I wil list a few:

1. In 1832 Smith prophesied that a temple would be built in Independence, Missouri, “which temple shall be reared in this generation. For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord” (Doctrine and Covenants, 84:4-5) To this day there is no such temple.

2. In 1835 Smith stated: It was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with the determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prne the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh-even fifty-six years should wind up the scene. (History of the Chruch, 2:182) This would place the second coming of Christ in 1891, once again history proves Smith’s prophecy was false.

3. Smith also claimed the American Civil War “would be poured out upon al nations” (Doctirne and Covenants, 87:2 History shows this was not the case.

4. Smith also prophesied that there were inhabitants living on the moon who wore black garments that were 7 feet tall and lived to be over 1000 years old. We have been to the moon and know for a fact that this isn’t true. 150 years ago he would never thought that we would one day walk on the moon.

There are many more but I won’t bore you.

Jesus said to Nickodemus that for a man to inherit the Kingdom of God he must be born again John 3:3, Nickodemus ask him how can a man enter into his mother’s womb a second time. Jesus answered by saying “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. He is not talking of baptism here when he speaks of water he is speaking of the natural birth, the fetus grows in the mothers womb in a sack of water. Thus we know that for a child to be born the mothers water has to break. This is the first birth the second birth is the spiritual birth. That is why he said “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

To experience a spiritual birth one must be drawn by the spirit of God to a place they see themselves as God sees them.

1. a sinner Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God”

2. They need to understand there is a penalty for sin and that penalty is death Romans 6:23a “For the wages of sin is death”, Revelation 20:14-15. “and death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

3. They need to realize you can’t earn or buy your way into heaven it is a gift of God. Romans 6:23b “but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord”, Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace ye are saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast.”, and Titus 3:5 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy ghost.

4. They need to realize Jesus when he died on the cross, took our place and paid the price for all sin. Romans 5:8 “but God commendeth (proved) His love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us”, 2 Corinthians 5:21”For He hath made Him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him”.

5. Realize that by puting their faith and trust in Him to forgive their sin and confessing their sin He will save them Romans 10:9-13 “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confesion is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

If you will by faith just believe this and ask Him to forgive your sin and come into your heart and be your Lord and Savior He will do so and save you from your sins.

The choice is yours. You can either reject the truth or receive it. I hope you receive it.

So, obviously, this had gone from an attack on an organization to a personal attack against me. How mature of you.

Now, I may be reading this wrong, but are you suddenly supporting polygamy?

And do you REALLY think that typing in all bold will get you anymore attention?

Now, I love how you constantly use the word “cult” to describe the LDS religion. Yep, we’re a cult all right. See, every full moon, all the Youth Group girls go out in the woods under supervision of the elder women in the church, strip down naked, and cut off chicken’s heads while dancing around a bonfire…

No, but in all seriousness, we are a cult. And I’m a proud member of the LDS Cult. Just like any Catholic is probably a proud member of the Catholic Cult, any Baptist proud of being a part of the Baptist Cult, any Jew proud of being a part of the Cult of Judaism, and any Muslim proud to be a part of the Cult of Islam. You see, any and all religion that believes in some sort of higher power(s) is a cult, in the modern day definition of the word.

–READ AGAIN WE FIND THE ORIGIONAL MESSAGE OF JOE…. / LUCIFER ./ SMITH WERE COMLETLY RACIST……..–

Then how come Joseph Smith ordained Elijah Abel, an escaped black slave who was baptized in the church, to the priesthood? Most definitely, because he was not a racist. Unfortunately, racism did not find its way into higher church authority until Brigham Young’s time as prophet. The fact is that this happened in most churches, as a result of the condition of society at the time.

I need to correct this paragraph, as I mistyped a number: Next, racism was not a part of the church. It may have been taught by individuals within the church, but if we’re SUCH a group of freaking racists, why was Elijah Abel baptized in June of 1832 and ordained to the priesthood in 1836(not 1936)? He was a an escaped slave! No special education, nothing extraordinary about him, and yet he was ordained by Joseph smith Junior himself! And he eventually was made one of the quorum of the seventy, the next highest power in the Mormon church next to the quorum of the twelve. There were many other similar cases over the years, even in the 20th century.

I do not understand why you need to continue to preach your “truth” when it is so full of hate and half-truths. By comparing me to Satan as the “Master Liar”, you have just proved to everyone that you obviously feel that you are somehow exempt from one of the greatest teachings that Jesus Christ preached: love thy neighbor. While most definitely not the most significant of his teachings(though still notably significant), he constantly preached tolerance and forbearance towards our fellow brothers and sisters.

Modern Bible? I don’t know what “modern” bible you refer to. We use the King James Translation. In fact, I have a copy right here that I carry to church that was not printed by the church, yet it remains identical in every way to the versions printed by the church. The only difference is the ones printed by the church have footnotes that reference various scripture verses through the Bible, BOM, D&C, and Pearl of Great Price. The other books mentioned also have such footnotes, referring certain subjects to passages in all of the books.

And on a final note, any to any who have followed this obviously fruitless and self-destructve(for both of us) contest of wills, please read mine and PrestonDakness’s messages thoroughly. I have repeatadly warned that he hacks away at various passages in order to get his own point across, while leaving out anything of context. Take a look at my last post before this one, then at Preston’s posts afterwards. You will find that he cuts out and even edits several of my responses, some putting a negative connotation on my words. I find it troubling that someone has so much hate as to do that to individual people, much less the obsolete teachings of an organization.

babtists are a denomination of Christianity. Momonism isnt. its as plain as that they arent even close to being the same.

No those two religions are not even close, except that they both belive in god of coarse! as far as the born again christians I have no clue!

Thanks Rudy, I liked your answer…simple and to the point…

LOL @ Captainassassin… :)

phrannie

(continuation)

Now, chapter 5 of 2nd Nephi is during which Laman and Lamuel(the eldest children of Nephi’s parents)force a separation between those who followed the words of Lehi and those who rebelled. Again, entire thing, just for perspective.

The Nephites separate themselves from the Lamanites, keep the law of Moses, and build a temple—Because of their unbelief, the Lamanites are cursed, receive a skin of blackness, and become a scourge unto the Nephites. Between 588 and 559 B.C.

1 Behold, it came to pass that I, Nephi, did cry much unto the Lord my God, because of the anger of my brethren. 2 But behold, their anger did increase against me, insomuch that they did seek to take away my life. 3 Yea, they did murmur against me, saying: Our younger brother thinks to arule over us; and we have had much trial because of him; wherefore, now let us slay him, that we may not be afflicted more because of his words. For behold, we will not have him to be our ruler; for it belongs unto us, who are the elder brethren, to rule over this people. 4 Now I do not write upon these plates all the words which they murmured against me. But it sufficeth me to say, that they did seek to take away my life. 5 And it came to pass that the Lord did warn me, that I, Nephi, should depart from them and flee into the wilderness, and all those who would go with me. 6 Wherefore, it came to pass that I, Nephi, did take my family, and also Zoram and his family, and Sam, mine elder brother and his family, and Jacob and Joseph, my younger brethren, and also my sisters, and all those who would go with me. And all those who would go with me were those who believed in the warnings and the revelations of God; wherefore, they did hearken unto my words. 7 And we did take our tents and whatsoever things were possible for us, and did journey in the wilderness for the space of many days. And after we had journeyed for the space of many days we did pitch our tents. 8 And my people would that we should call the name of the place Nephi; wherefore, we did call it Nephi. 9 And all those who were with me did take upon them to call themselves the people of Nephi. 10 And we did observe to keep the judgments, and the statutes, and the commandments of the Lord in all things, according to the law of Moses. 11 And the Lord was with us; and we did prosper exceedingly; for we did sow seed, and we did reap again in abundance. And we began to raise flocks, and herds, and animals of every kind. 12 And I, Nephi, had also brought the records which were engraven upon the plates of brass; and also the ball, or compass, which was prepared for my father by the hand of the Lord, according to that which is written. 13 And it came to pass that we began to prosper exceedingly, and to multiply in the land. 14 And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords, lest by any means the people who were now called Lamanites should come upon us and destroy us; for I knew their hatred towards me and my children and those who were called my people. 15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance. 16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine. 17 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did cause my people to be industrious, and to labor with their hands. 18 And it came to pass that they would that I should be their king. But I, Nephi, was desirous that they should have no king; nevertheless, I did for them according to that which was in my power. 19 And behold, the words of the Lord had been fulfilled unto my brethren, which he spake concerning them, that I should be their ruler and their teacher. Wherefore, I had been their ruler and their teacher, according to the commandments of the Lord, until the time they sought to take away my life. 20 Wherefore, the word of the Lord was fulfilled which he spake unto me, saying that: Inasmuch as they will not hearken unto thy words they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And behold, they were cut off from his presence. 21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. 22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities. 23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done. 24 And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey. 25 And the Lord God said unto me: They shall be a scourge unto thy seed, to astir them up in remembrance of me; and inasmuch as they will not remember me, and hearken unto my words, they shall scourge them even unto destruction. 26 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did consecrate Jacob and Joseph, that they should be priests and teachers over the land of my people. 27 And it came to pass that we lived after the manner of happiness. 28 *And thirty years had passed away from the time we left Jerusalem. 29 And I, Nephi, had kept the records upon my plates, which I had made, of my people thus far. 30 And it came to pass that the Lord God said unto me: Make other plates; and thou shalt engraven many things upon them which are good in my sight, for the profit of thy people. 31 Wherefore, I, Nephi, to be obedient to the commandments of the Lord, went and made these plates upon which I have engraven these things. 32 And I engraved that which is pleasing unto God. And if my people are pleased with the things of God they will be pleased with mine engravings which are upon these plates. 33 And if my people desire to know the more particular part of the history of my people they must search mine other plates. 34 And it sufficeth me to say that forty years had passed away, and we had already had wars and contentions with our brethren.

Now, by this point, I think I have proven how much you like to use the tactics of the mainstream media, methods dating back to the beginning of time, in order to discredit a person or organization. I do not seek to deceive anyone. In fact, I don’t even seek to convert anyone. I simply seek to right a number of wrongs. I do not attack anyone’s religion, unless you’re from a fanatical group of Jihadists claiming to represent the entirety of Islam and Alah’s will. Then I’ll go off on you.

Preston, you have made comments in other messages in other threads about how the church provides for the welfare of its higher ups. This simply is not true. President Gordon B. Hinckley, the recently deceased prophet, is a fine example. HE was not rich. He never was rich. Wasn’t born into wealth, had a horrible time finding work after his less-than-successful mission(Great Depression Period), and for the longest time, didn’t have the best of living spaces. But, adhering to the teachings of the church, he did a near immaculate job of staying out of debt. That nice house he lived in? When it was first built, it wasn’t nearly as large. Over a period of decades, he personally did all of the renovations and add-on work. Read this one story from an interview with his wife: A recently moved-in neighbor from next door just walked up and rung the door bell. They got to talking, and this neighbor asked who did their housework. When Miss Hinckly told her that it was her husband, the neighbor asked if he would do theirs, she burst out laughing(in humor).

These men, while far from perfect, generally do a great job at following the commandments of both ancient and modern. With hard work and careful investments, they are able to become self-sustaining by the time they’re called to the full-time ministry of the church. And none of our clergy are paid, even the full time ones. Ya, we pay for the construction work on our temples and meeting buildings, but frankly, no one’s that charitable these days. We occasionally provide some welfare for our members in the form of food(and only after proof of poverty is proven;we’re not going to give hand outs to the guy with the nice house and new car simply because he went broke from poor spending habits), but that’s it. And don’t forget the humanitarian aid services. We were the first people out on the front lines after Hurricane Katrina, assisting in rescue operations, clearing out debris, and providing food and shelter for its victims. We were some of the first responders to the Tsunami in the Pacific. In Kentucky this past winter, I personally know dozens of people who went up their and assisted in the clean-up.

—Mormons don’t care who is on top…..MORMONS ARE MOSTLY WHITE TRASH…WHOR.ES…… sucking & prostituting……WHOM ever ..it takes to remain……THE TOP….

Really? Because from my experience, the majority of our members are actually in the middle-class. It seems that the lower class really are so uneducated and closed-minded that they adhere to whatever they have left. But that’s my experience. Might be different in 3rd world countries. And as far as I know, we generally don’t let active whor.es and prostitutes get baptized into the church. By no means do we discourage them from coming(as long as they’re not proving to be a detriment on the younger among our members), but an active sinner isn’t going to get baptized, or if already baptized, get into the priesthood or temple.

One extreme example of a higher-class member would be J. W. Marriott, Jr., owner of Marriot International. He is an ACTIVE member of the church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._W._Marriott,_Jr.

Just for kicks.

—SOMETHING THESE LAZY…RICH …SPOILED WANNA BE,.,…FARMER …DISEASED…GOAT///… BOY…HICK…TOWN…HOLES…ARE GONNA BE REALIZING…WHEN THEY PLAY WITH REX…& THE EAST SIDE…CREW… —

Are you implying something? Because I currently have many college scholarships made available to me due to my academic successes, none of the from BYU(wouldn’t go there, anyway). And you couldn’t tell I was from Tennessee by my accent. Maybe somewhere in the entire South, but not my state, or even the general region.

—IMMIGRANTS R. U.S—

Yes. What’s your point? I think I stated very clearly the difference between the citizens of Germany and the United States. And so what if there WERE German-American Mormons who supported Germany? They supported Germany, not the LDS church. So what if there were German-German Mormons who supported the Allies? They supported the Allies, not the LDS church. And ultimately, the Americans should have supported the United States and the Germans Germany, because the church teaches that we are supposed to follow and support our worldly leaders, and take an active role as individuals in the nation’s politics.

Again, I do not understand your animosity towards my church, and your hostility during my attempts to do so has only further alienated us from any peaceful resolution. I do find it disappointing that you brought out a quote from one of our personal messages and hacked it to recognizable proportions in order to further your dying offensive. We both know it. You attacks become more aggressive, personal, and desperate with each post. Your last one shows how much content you’ve lost to use against me and the ones I choose to defend. “IMMIGRANT R. US”. You talked about me rambling. That has almost no relevance to what we’ve been(or I should say, were) debating. (Were as in this is no longer a debate, so it seems, not that its finished).

For anyone who wants to understand our church, go here. It is a complete compilation of the Book of Mormon, against which you may compare hard copies and my words. I already verified that everything I posted is identical to my hard copy(actually, copies). http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/contents

And here for an entire compilation of our books of doctrine. You may compare our KING JAMES Version to yours. I don’t think you’ll find any difference. http://scriptures.lds.org/en

But, just on a note, not trying to convert anybody. Just providing you content against which to compare. I’ll give you my account password so you can see Preston and I’s pms, if you want.(Well, not really, but I’ll try to have an admin confirm them).

(continuation)

Chapter 13 is actually a continuation of this, describing the discovery of the New World by the “Gentiles”.

CHAPTER 13 Nephi sees in vision: the church of the devil set up among the Gentiles; the discovery and colonizing of America; the loss of many plain and precious parts of the Bible; the resultant state of gentile apostasy; the restoration of the gospel, the coming forth of latter-day scripture, and the building up of Zion. Between 600 and 592 B.C.

1 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld many nations and kingdoms. 2 And the angel said unto me: What beholdest thou? And I said: I behold many nations and kingdoms. 3 And he said unto me: These are the nations and kingdoms of the Gentiles. 4 And it came to pass that I saw among the nations of the Gentiles the formation of a great church. 5 And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which bslayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity. 6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it. 7 And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots. 8 And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church. 9 And also for the praise of the world do they destroy the saints of God, and bring them down into captivity. 10 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld many waters; and they divided the Gentiles from the seed of my brethren. 11 And it came to pass that the angel said unto me: Behold the wrath of God is upon the seed of thy brethren. 12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land. 13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters. 14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the bland of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten. 15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the bland for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain. 16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was with them. 17 And I beheld that their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them. 18 And I beheld that the power of God was with them, and also that the wrath of God was upon all those that were gathered together against them to battle. 19 And I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles that had gone out of captivity were delivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations. 20 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that they did prosper in the land; and I beheld a book, and it was carried forth among them. 21 And the angel said unto me: Knowest thou the meaning of the book? 22 And I said unto him: I know not. 23 And he said: Behold it proceedeth out of the mouth of a Jew. And I, Nephi, beheld it; and he said unto me: The book that thou beholdest is a record of the Jews, which contains the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; and it also containeth many of the prophecies of the holy prophets; and it is a record like unto the engravings which are upon the plates of brass, save there are not so many; nevertheless, they contain the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; wherefore, they are of great worth unto the Gentiles. 24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fullness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God. 25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God. 26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away. 27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men. 28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God. 29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them. 30 Nevertheless, thou beholdest that the Gentiles who have gone forth out of captivity, and have been lifted up by the power of God above all other nations, upon the face of the land which is choice above all other lands, which is the land that the Lord God hath covenanted with thy father that his seed should have for the land of their inheritance; wherefore, thou seest that the Lord God will not suffer that the Gentiles will utterly destroy the mixture of thy seed, which are among thy brethren. 31 Neither will he suffer that the Gentiles shall destroy the seed of thy brethren. 32 Neither will the Lord God suffer that the Gentiles shall forever remain in that awful state of blindness, which thou beholdest they are in, because of the plain and most precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, whose formation thou hast seen. 33 Wherefore saith the Lamb of God: I will be merciful unto the Gentiles, unto the visiting of the remnant of the house of Israel in great judgment. 34 And it came to pass that the angel of the Lord spake unto me, saying: Behold, saith the Lamb of God, after I have visited the remnant of the house of Israel—and this remnant of whom I speak is the seed of thy father—wherefore, after I have visited them in judgment, and smitten them by the hand of the Gentiles, and after the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb—I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my gospel, which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb. 35 For, behold, saith the Lamb: I will manifest myself unto thy seed, that they shall write many things which I shall minister unto them, which shall be plain and precious; and after thy seed shall be destroyed, and dwindle in unbelief, and also the seed of thy brethren, behold, these things shall be hid up, to come forth unto the Gentiles, by the gift and power of the Lamb. 36 And in them shall be written my gospel, saith the Lamb, and my brock and my salvation. 37 And blessed are they who shall seek to bring forth my Zion at that day, for they shall have the gift and the power of the Holy Ghost; and if they endure unto the end they shall be lifted up at the last day, and shall be saved in the everlasting kingdom of the Lamb; and whoso shall publish peace, yea, tidings of great joy, how beautiful upon the mountains shall they be. 38 And it came to pass that I beheld the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the book of the Lamb of God, which had proceeded forth from the mouth of the Jew, that it came forth from the Gentiles unto the remnant of the seed of my brethren. 39 And after it had come forth unto them I beheld other books, which came forth by the power of the Lamb, from the Gentiles unto them, unto thecconvincing of the Gentiles and the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the Jews who were scattered upon all the face of the earth, that the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true. 40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved. 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in bone; for there is cone God and one Shepherd over all the earth. 42 And the time cometh that he shall manifest himself unto all nations, both unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles; and after he has manifested himself unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles, then he shall manifest himself unto the Gentiles and also unto the Jews, and the blast shall be first, and the first shall be last.

Now one can say these verses might condemn the Catholic church, but being one who has thoroughly studied the Book of Mormon, I know that they use this word to describe a series of organizations who shared very similar beliefs despite their dissociation with each other because of time. This is used to describe certain organizations, including the Gadianton Robbers, throughout the Nephite nation. The “Great and Abominable” church is the TRUE church of satan: a religion of man’s own selfish and skeptical desires.

Preston, I truly apologize for having continued on with this argument for long enough. It is obvious that, no matter what anyone does or says, you will continue to attack Mormons, and if your post records are correct, Catholics. All I can say about this is that you are not following the teachings of Christ in this. In your most recent posts, you have repeated the same phrases over repeatedly, and so perfectly, that you’re obviously using the copy/paste function. In addition to this, you post even more verses, leaving anything out that might give some context to them. In some cases, I might add, you didn’t edit enough, as there were several that actually got the point across quite well, a point that I don’t see could easily be interpreted as racist. I will not waste my time correcting them, as anyone interested in the facts will review them for themselves at the link I have provided, on the LDS website, of which everything is public. I will no longer waste my time trying to inform the far lefts who follow this, as they will not bend no matter what I present. I understand this now. I will paste the link once more for the reader’s indulgence. You may find Moses in the Pearl of Great Price, and Nephi, Jacob, Mormon, and Alma in the Book of Mormon.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en

Oh, and I finally located where you’re getting all of your information, Preston. Everyone, please look just this one page over. You will find that the edits are identical or near identical to Preston’s posts. Please just skim it over, if you’re in the indulging mood.

http://www.realmormonhistory.com/god&skin.htm

Now, I am going to come out and explain that most of my post’s are heavily influenced by my personal views, which are often controversial in the eyes of even my church. In fact, almost got kicked out of the Sunday School session this past Sunday for contending something I didn’t agree with. It is MY belief that God would not allow a religion to exist for millenia and centuries unnoticed. Throughout all forms of scripture and history, we find entire nations crumbling, their religion along with them. You can look at this from either a humanist view of a religious view. Humanists would say the religion collapsed as a result of the nation’s collapse. Many Christians would say it worked the other way around. In this respect, I remain silent, simply because in most cases I don’t know, and others, there is still the possibility that there may be no higher power, and I’m completely wrong. But that’s for God or for the eternities to decide. What I do believe is that most of the world’s older religions, polished by centuries and millennium of weathering, have something to teach the world. There are aspects of Islam and Hinduism that I do completely agree with, often in areas contrary to the church, or in most cases, where the church doesn’t really touch. There are concepts with no religious base at all that I also follow.

“I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; But I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I shall die innocent, and it shall yet be said of me—he was murdered in cold blood.” (B. H. Roberts, A Comprehensive History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 6 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1930], 2: 248 - 249.)

Here, Joseph Smith is not comparing him to Christ. Perhaps quoting a Bible verse(the book which he most read from), but by no means comparing himself. Jesus Christ, nearing the time of his crucifixion, knew that his end was near, and the apostles who recorded his life knew that there was no chance for escape, though Jesus died willfully and I like to think that he wouldn’t have run even if he could. Joseph was truly in an identical situation. The way circumstances had been manipulated by the church’s active adversaries, he and those who joined him in Carthage had no chance for escape. They knew what was to happen to them, and they discouraged those plotting for their rescue from going through with the futile attempts. And in the end, they did die, John Taylor being lucky enough to having taken a shot into his pocket watch and being his under a bed by his fellow prisoners while still incapacitated.

How was Joseph Smith Junior a murderer? Is there ANY proof that he ever took a life in cold blood, or even at all? If he was defending himself and his family, I could understand that, but there are no records confirming an indictment for murder, no writings by fellow members of such, and if you look at the way he treated people, he would have done just what he did in Carthage before laying a hand on another. He took tar and featherings, he was beat, abused and neglected in a number of prisons, and in the end, ran to the window of his prison cell and just stood there while he was shot several times from both in and outside of the jail, most likely in an attempt to draw attention away from the others(and don’t try to come out and say it was all for dramatic purposes; when you’re pumping full of adrenaline, foresight is nil. You act on impulse.)

There is one last thing I would like to bring up. What is our ultimate purpose for coming into this life. I mean, we should have been content with being spirits in heaven, shouldn’t we? But something about it was incomplete. We couldn’t find happiness, joy, in just sitting around idly. When Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit, yes, they allowed sin to exist. They brought about disease, hunger, and misery. But for every action there is a reaction. For the first time in all of (humanly) imaginable eternity, there was a thing called joy.

I believe that ultimately, we come to this life to find happiness. We are not creatures of instinct, having to kill or be killed, and having to reproduce in ridiculous quantities to ensure our family lines remain existing. We experience a full range of emotions that many animals either don’t have the capacity or luxury to feel. And yet, that happiness is so easily shattered. It is when we contend, try to put others down, that we not only destroy another’s happiness, but our own. When one makes a call to arms, they not only destroy the peace and happiness that others have had the privilege to live in, but they destroy their own peace and security. Either that, or they were not happy to or content to begin with, and they wish to spread this misery onto everyone else that the see so happy.

I wish that every person would be left in peace to find happiness. But because the world lacks cooperation, especially the religious world, and unity, a number of the sects feel the need to force their views on others, for some reason unsatisfied simply with their own personal belief in Christ, or Allah, or whomever you worship. But, unfortunately, no organization has power without followers, and it seems that the smaller ones, whose membership is stagnant or slow to grow, feel the need to, if not convert others to their ministry, to certainly prevent them from joining another. This is not only selfish, but this is deceitful. “If I can’t have you, no one can.”

Unfortunately for you, Preston, we are brothers. We are both children created in the image of God, even according to your Bible. Unfortunately, I didn’t choose whether or not you or I were to come into existence. But because we are both spirit children of our Father, we are most definitely brothers, along with our eldest brother, Jesus Christ, and unfortunately, our fallen brother, Satan, or Lucifer.

I ask each one of you reading this to aspire to become happy. If you are TRULY happy, TRULY completed by attacking others, then please, I encourage you to continue to do so, so long as you do not intrude on the peace and joy of others. But if you can find a way to spread that happiness, without stepping on anyone’s toes, then perform those actions, because if you along with others can benefit from one small act of charity or kindness, that happiness can spread to others. I have been touched by people I have only encountered once in my entire life, simply because of a simple, considerate greeting in a place unfamiliar, or a few words of encouragement to a group. We all have this capacity. And I do confidently and firmly believe in every one of these words, and that by living up to them, we can slowly begin to break away at the bitterness and intolerance that has come to plague this world. And I say these things humbly in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

2nd Nephi 2:22-23, 25 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

Adam fell that men might be; and men care, that they might have joy.

Romans 12:18 If it be be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peacably with all men.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge they brother? or why dost thou set at naught thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Romans 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make peace, and and things wherewith one may edify another.

Timothy 2:1-2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Deut. 20:10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.

Matthew 5:9-11 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

D&C 98: 32-34 Behold, this is the law I gave unto my servant Nephi, and thy fathers, Joseph, and Jacob, and Isaac, and Abraham, and all mine ancient prophets and apostles.

And again, this is the law that I gave unto mine ancients, that they should not go out unto battle against any nation, kindred, tongue, or people, save I, the Lord, commanded them.

And if any nation, tongue, or people should proclaim war against them, they should first lift a standard of peace unto that people, nation, or tongue;

no.

First thing I would like to note is that you quote materials that are essentially ancient history. The latest material that I can find you having quoted is 1966, over forty years old.

Next, racism was not a part of the church. It may have been taught by individuals within the church, but if we’re SUCH a group of freaking racists, why was Elijah Abel baptized in June of 1832 and ordained to the priesthood in 1936? He was a an escaped slave! No special education, nothing extraordinary about him, and yet he was ordained by Joseph smith Junior himself! And he eventually was made one of the quorum of the seventy, the next highest power in the Mormon church next to the quorum of the twelve. There were many other similar cases over the years, even in the 20th century.

The Bible pro-polygamy? Please don’t get me started. The old testament(the early portions, I might add) were such, in a world where the population was in the tens of millions at any given time. The New Testament preaches against it. Go read Timothy 3:2, or Titus 1:6, or a number of verses that I frankly won’t waste the time to look up. I think the message is quite clear in any of the translations.

If you would read the BOM yourself, I’m willing to bet you would find more with which you can attack Mormons. You take the word of others on its content without seeking the knowledge for yourself, and as a result, you make a greater fool of yourself. Oh, yes, the BOM preaches against polygamy, big time. So does the latter half of the Old Testament. This was about the time that the people recorded in the Book of Mormon left, shortly prior to the Babylonian enslavement of Israel.

I make no judgments about your life, Preston. For the most part, I ask questions, so I might better understand you. The reason we are even in this world-wide war of words is because of a lack of tolerance, and two people’s conviction that they are the superior specimen. I am content to remain silent when tolerance can be shown(I have put mormons in their place many times), but I will not willfully allow a sociopaths slanderer such as you attack mine or any religion without ANY precedence, as far as I know. If an individual within my church wronged you at one point, or you are a member who has chosen to part paths because of such an individual, you have my condolences, not out of pity for your choice, but because you are so offended by the Mormon and Catholic religions that you feel the need to attempt to put them down with lies and half-truths.

I disagree with some of the mormon teachings not because I don’t believe in the prophets or the faith, but in an attempt to not be a hypocrite. The religion, like so many others from which I derive, is ultimately good. But I am too…humanist and individualistic to be able to follow the teachings perfectly. The fact that I am even typing this response proves this. I can not follow something that I do not see as logical, thus I am required at times to take the hammer to my sword and break it to pieces, then reforge it with the shards and new steel. This is how I choose to live. Yes, perhaps I, the individual who goes by the alias Hivetyrant, am a liar, even to himself. In fact, I know I am, and a pretty good one, because I can look a person in the eye and tell a bold faced lie and get away with it. Perhaps I do try to judge others where I shouldn’t. And perhaps, even at times, I do contradict myself, thus the reason I continue to work at bettering myself as a person. But ultimately, at the end of the day, I am willing to admit my weaknesses, and admit that I have made bad choices, and choose to learn from it, to better strengthen myself and those for whom I have unconditional love. Every evening, I pray to my Heavenly Father that I find the strength to continue to stand up for my beliefs, which I hold dear and true, and that I find the tolerance to stand up for other’s beliefs, no matter how contradictory I find them to be. I also pray that his work be continued through my actions, and through whatever form, whether it be the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Judaism of old, the Catholic church, or just that funny old guy with the southern accent who everybody likes. I believe his work comes in many shapes and sizes, and no one should waste time in attempts such as yours to destroy one of those portions. And ultimately, you will find many within my church who share the same sentiments, through unfortunately, there are individuals like Prestondakness who are just as adamant in their beliefs, and unable to see the wrong in putting down others.

Can you say the same?

(continuation)

Well, look here, I have a quad sitting right next to the computer. And goodness, Preston, do you not have a spell check on your browser?

1 Nephi 12:23 is actually brought in out of context. Nephi is shown a vision of everything that is to become of the American continents. I’m just going to post the full chapter to give some context. It’s not long.

CHAPTER 12 Nephi sees in vision: the land of promise; the righteousness, iniquity, and downfall of its inhabitants; the coming of the Lamb of God among them; how the twelve disciples and the twelve apostles shall judge Israel; the loathsome and filthy state of those who dwindle in unbelief. Between 600 and 592 B.C.

1 And it came to pass that the angel said unto me: Look, and behold thy seed, and also the seed of thy brethren. And I looked and beheld the land of promise; and I beheld multitudes of people, yea, even as it were in number as many as the sand of the sea. 2 And it came to pass that I beheld multitudes gathered together to battle, one against the other; and I beheld wars, and rumors of wars, and great slaughters with the sword among my people. 3 And it came to pass that I beheld many generations pass away, after the manner of wars and contentions in the land; and I beheld many cities, yea, even that I did not number them. 4 And it came to pass that I saw a mist of darkness on the face of the land of promise; and I saw lightnings, and I heard thunderings, and earthquakes, and all manner of tumultuous noises; and I saw the earth and the rocks, that they rent; and I saw mountains tumbling into pieces; and I saw the plains of the earth, that they were broken up; and I saw many cities that they were sunk; and I saw many that they were burned with fire; and I saw many that did tumble to the earth, because of the quaking thereof. 5 And it came to pass after I saw these things, I saw the vapor of darkness, that it passed from off the face of the earth; and behold, I saw multitudes who had not fallen because of the great and terrible judgments of the Lord. 6 And I saw the heavens open, and the Lamb of God descending out of heaven; and he came down and showed himself unto them. 7 And I also saw and bear record that the Holy Ghost fell upon twelve others; and they were ordained of God, and chosen. 8 And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the Twelve Disciples of the Lamb, who are chosen to minister unto thy seed. 9 And he said unto me: Thou rememberest the aTwelve Apostles of the Lamb? Behold they are they who shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, the twelve ministers of thy seed shall be judged of them; for ye are of the house of Israel. 10 And these twelve ministers whom thou beholdest shall judge thy seed. And, behold, they are righteous forever; for because of their faith in the Lamb of God their garments are made white in his blood. 11 And the angel said unto me: Look! And I looked, and beheld athree generations pass away in righteousness; and their garments were white even like unto the Lamb of God. And the angel said unto me: These are made white in the blood of the Lamb, because of their faith in him. 12 And I, Nephi, also saw many of the fourth generation who passed away in righteousness. 13 And it came to pass that I saw the multitudes of the earth gathered together. 14 And the angel said unto me: Behold thy seed, and also the seed of thy brethren. 15 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the people of my seed gathered together in multitudes against the seed of my brethren; and they were gathered together to battle. 16 And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the fountain of filthy water which thy father saw; yea, even the river of which he spake; and the depths thereof are the depths of hell. 17 And the mists of darkness are the temptations of the devil, which blindeth the eyes, and hardeneth the hearts of the children of men, and leadeth them away into broad roads, that they perish and are lost. 18 And the large and spacious building, which thy father saw, is vain imaginations and the pride of the children of men. And a great and a terrible gulf divideth them; yea, even the word of the justice of the Eternal God, and the Messiah who is the Lamb of God, of whom the Holy Ghost beareth record, from the beginning of the world until this time, and from this time henceforth and forever. 19 And while the angel spake these words, I beheld and saw that the seed of my brethren did contend against my seed, according to the word of the angel; and because of the pride of my seed, and the temptations of the devil, I beheld that the seed of my brethren did overpower the people of my seed. 20 And it came to pass that I beheld, and saw the people of the seed of my brethren that they had overcome my seed; and they went forth in multitudes upon the face of the land. 21 And I saw them gathered together in multitudes; and I saw wars and rumors of wars among them; and in wars and rumors of wars I saw bmany generations pass away. 22 And the angel said unto me: Behold these shall dwindle in unbelief. 23 And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.

As you can see, they were actually speaking of the Nephites, as there were instances of them joining the Lamanites, and their children afflicted with the same curse.

If you want your question answered by an LDS scholar, you can ask it here: http://www.fairlds.org/contact.php

I hope this explanation isn’t too confusing. It’s a very good question. I could be mistaken, but I think that in addition to the Holy Bible, mormons also believe The Book of Mormon to be God’s word. Otherwise I believe they are similar to baptisits. I don’t know for sure. I am a methodist, but I know some Baptists. To be born again is a term used by many evangelical, fundamentslist, and penecostal prodestant churches to describe the way one’s life has a sort of newness, or spiritual rebirth, about it when they come to accept christ as their personal saviour.

Baptist believe that God was always there and always will be. They believe that God sent his son Jesus to die on the cross for our sins and then rose from the dead to purchase a place for us in heaven. Mormons believe that God was once a man. They believe that you have to earn your way to heaven. There are different levels of heaven. They believe that you can become God and populate a planet with spirit children.

(continuation)

Another article, condemning every Christian faith. Found here. Do not own. http://re-xs.ucsm.ac.uk/gcsere/revision/xtianpers/chper3/page2.html

Racism - Notes

Key Idea

All people whatever their race were created by God, and so all people are equal in the sight of God and should be treated the same.

Racism is treating people differently because of the race or culture to which they belong. In the last 500 years the ‘white’ race conquered and occupied much of the world and saw the people that they defeated as heathens and as inferior. One of the things that was considered inferior was their religion and following on after the soldiers came the missionaries. Over the last 50 years there has been a growing awareness by the western Christian church that racism has been part of its history. Jesus Christ came from the Middle East yet in western Christian art is nearly always portrayed as a white man. The church has thus begun to teach about equality and to offer security against discrimination, especially in its teachings about equality and forgiveness.

“The leadership of the church is what I call “politely racist”. It does not exercise vulgarity but it is extremely racist. Because of that they are not able to listen to the black presence in their midst.” Revd. Tony Ottey - Church of England Minister

Christians believe that God created all humans in his image, and thus all humans are bound together as equals in the sight of God. For Christians one of the reasons for the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus was the uniting of all peoples.

“For in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith. As many of you as were baptised into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. “

Paul’s letter to the Galatians 3:26-28

also

“Every human being created in the image of God is a person for who Christ died. Racism, which is the use of a person’s racial origin to determine their value, is an assault on Christ’s values and a rejection of his sacrifice.” World Council of Churches 1980

There are no divisions in the argument about racism for the churches. All the churches now agree that to discriminate against people on the grounds of their racial origin is wrong, and contrary to the law of God. Many people have fought against racial discrimination in both the church and society, Martin Luther King (USA black rights), Archbishop Desmond Tutu & Trevor Huddleston (South Africa apartied). From other people there are also lessons to be learnt, from Gandhi comes the idea of non-violent protest and from the Holocaust there are many lessons to be learnt. To be Christian one should not just be non-racist but anti-racist.

“The cause of anti-racism is not just the cause of the black minorities in our own country it is the cause of the millions in Africa, Asia and Latin America still suffering from the legacy of the exploitation that produced our wealth as well as our racism. It is up to us”

Chris Brazier

ANOTHER article, this one involving Christian racism towards Asians. DO NOT OWN. http://www.thefighting44s.com/archives/2007/03/09/asian-america-the-christian-church-and-racism/

For the past couple of weeks, I’ve been following the story of the book “Skits That Teach” and the ensuing controversy because it involved the intersection of several issues that I care about - Asian America, the Christian Church, and the ugly specter of racism. For those unfamiliar with what exactly happened, I believe the incident is worth recounting as a lesson in both the response of the Asian American community, and the response of those who committed the offense.

My interest in the story first began when I was reading the blog of thecuttingtruth (an Asian American Christian whose blog focuses particularly on Asian American and Christian issues) made a detailed entry on February 22nd about a controversial skit being published by a Christian book company. He himself had been tipped off by the blog of Soong-Chan Rah, a founder and pastor of a multi-ethnic church in Cambridge, MA.

For those wanting to know what exactly went wrong without reading the aforementioned links… Zondervan and Youth Specialities (YS), published the following skit in a book containing skits (“Skits that Teach”) designed for young people: “Herro? Dis is Wok’s Up calling to confirm your order. We have one fried rice . . . and one pu pu platter.I think that, yes, you total is 14 dollar 95 cent. Thank you very much.”

(a little more irritated) “Herro? This is Wok’s Up Restaurant again. We have drive and drive, and we can’t find you house. We don’t find you house soon, you pu pu get cold. Pu pu good when it get cold. Pu pu good when it hot. Hot pu pu is a very good, and you pu pu getting cold.”

(hostile) “Okay, we drive for a long time looking for you house. I tell you, you go outside and I look for you. I am driving a red Rincon Continental. You pu pu getting cold. Bye!”

Okay, I drive for long time and I still not find you house. So I am eating you pu pu. Ruckiry it still warm. I was hungry, so I eat it. Mmmm this pu pu is good. You on my bad rist.

So what exactly is the skit supposed to teach? Good question.

The skit was initially offered as a free sample on the publisher’s website, along with a audio file of the skit being performed in the mocking, “Oriental” stereotyped accent that the spelling of the dialogue implies. I personally felt sick after reading the skit and hearing the file - not only was I disgusted by the ugly stereotypes that the skit seemed to enforce about Chinese people and Asians in general; I felt sick knowing that this brand of racist humor was coming from a supposedly Christian company, and worst of all, it was meant to be performed for youth.

Popular culture is filled with already plenty of damaging, one-dimensional images of Asian people - to see it repeated in the Christian Church was a gross offense. Imagine for example being the only Asian kid at a non-Asian church, and sitting through this horrible excuse of a skit at your Saturday night youth club meeting…

.:.

It’s not the first time patently racist material against Asians has appeared in “legitimate” Christian educational materials.

Back in 2003, another Christian publisher came out with their Orientalist-fantasy “Rickshaw Rally” as a curriculum for churches to use during their summer activity programs for young children (commonly called “VBS”, vacation bible school). When the Asian American and Asian American Christian community complained, all they got was an unapologetic apology letter that amounted to, “Oops! Sorry, but we’re still going to sell our racist crap!”

Even to this day, “Rickshaw Rally” remains available.

.:.

Over the next few days, news of the skit began spreading and complaints were sent to Zondervan. Soong-Chan Rah himself began personally speaking via phone to several leaders at Zondervan, and in complete contrast to the “Rickshaw Rally” incident, found people receptive. Zondervan committed to freezing its remaining stock, re-editing the book to remove the offensive material, and offering free replacement copies to those who purchased the original.

While that action in and of itself was significant, the greatest steps toward reconciliation were made in the form of personal apologies - one from the skit writers themselves, and a particularly heartfelt, sincere one by marko, who took a lead role in responding to the concerns raised by Soong-Chan Rah, thecuttingtruth, and the Asian American Christian community.

The full text of marko’s bold and humble letter:

A public apology to our Asian American brothers and sisters Friday March 02nd 2007, 8:18 pm

we at youth specialties really screwed up. big time. i’m ashamed and embarrassed and horrified (and fairly angry, also), and I personally beg the forgiveness of our asian american christian brothers and sisters. I write as an individual christ-follower with responsibility for the systems in our organization which allowed for this offense; and I write as a spokesperson for youth specialties, apologizing on behalf of the whole organization.

in the fall of 2006, we published a book called “skits that teach.” the book contained a skit with a “chinese delivery man” character whose characterization – and, particularly, whose phonetically-spelled accent – was horribly, inexcusably, and unquestionably racist. that this content would appear in a youth specialties book has kept myself and others at ys sleepless this week – not only in our efforts to correct the problem, but in our sorrow over our addition to the prejudice perpetrated against asian americans. if there is ANY place we should expect an exception to the cultural norms on this kind of prejudice, it should be in the church. this kind of racism (intentional or not – that is not at issue here) goes against everything we believe here at ys.

while there was no intention of racism on our part, I do believe this blunder has exposed some systematic issues we must face. what I mean is this: if the character in the skit had been an african american, with similar racial characterization and phonetically-spelled accent, it would not – I believe – have slipped through the administrative cracks in our development process. but, somehow, the characterization that did get printed didn’t register high-enough on the radars of the people who saw it. this, while we might not want to admit it, reveals a systematic racism. and it’s one that I am committed to addressing, in myself (first), and in our organization.

here are the steps we have taken, and will be taking, as it pertains to the “skits that teach” book.

actions already taken:

• the day this issue was brought to the attention of jay howver (our publisher, who was also not aware of the content until that moment), we froze the remaining stock of 1700 copies in the warehouse of zondervan.

• within a day or two, a new version of the pages containing that skit had been edited and designed, and a new edition of the book is already at the printer. the new version should be in stock by mid-march.

• I entered into dialogue with dr. soong-chan rah, a pastor, professor at north park college, and the person who brought this issue to my attention (at about the same time as I was learning about it from within our organization). after several emails, dr. rah and I schedule a phone call for this morning (friday). I wanted to wait to chat with dr. rah before posting this apology, as I wanted to make sure I wasn’t assuming what all the issues were. I wanted to learn more about the background (various christian publishing and ministry issues that have occurred in the last few years). this, to say the least, has been a very educational week for me!

action to be taken in the next week:

• we will link to this public apology in our weekly email next wednesday (which is distributed to approximately 30,000 youth workers).

• we will link to this apology from the front page of our website for a period of time.

• I will personally receive any phone call from an asian american ministry leader who would like to talk, yell, complain, or ask questions. my number at ys is: (619) 440-2333. my email is: marko@youthspecialties.com (that goes directly to me, not to someone who screens my emails – you will receive a response directly from me).

• we will destroy the 1700 copies of the book currently “frozen” in the zondervan warehouse. normally, the stock of a discontinued or out-of-print book is sold off as “remainders” at a highly discounted price, to book liquidators. we want to be sure that not one more copy of the original version of this book sees the light of day.

• we will gladly offer a free copy of the new version of the book to anyone who has the original version. if you have the original version, simply tear out that skit (pages 13 – 16), and send it to youth specialties (300 s. pierce st., el cajon, ca 92020, ATTN: mindi godfrey). be sure to include your shipping address. we’ll send an entire replacement book at no charge to you.

• while there is no way for us to do an actual “recall” of the products that are already in christian bookstores, zondervan will certainly accept returns of that book (as they would of any book).

• our CORE manager (the CORE is our one day training seminar, which takes place in 100 cities over the next few months) just told me she’ll contact all the hosts for this weekend (about 8 or 10) and have them pull all the copies of this book from the sales tables.

I would also like to be clear that zondervan, our parent company, had nothing to do with this mess. they are not involved in our editorial process in a way that anyone at zondervan would have had an opportunity to raise a flag on this.

personally, I look forward to a few things:

• I look forward to the good I believe god can bring from this. I don’t pretend to know what that will look like; but my faith is built on a hope that god loves turning our sin and mess into beauty and restoration.

• I look forward to further interactions with asian american church leaders I have met through this painful process. I welcome your further input. all of us at ys welcome your input.

• I look forward to continuing my learning about the unique prejudices tolerated in our culture against asian americans. I asked dr. rah for a couple book suggestions that would further my understanding, and have already ordered the two he suggested.

.:.

That fact that racism has and continues to permeate every faucet of American society, including the Christian church, is not news to most people of color. However, the rather positive resolution of this incident does reassure my faith in the belief that the best way to begin approaching the issue of racism (both personal and systemic) is through dialogue.

Of course, an effective dialogue depends on a willingness of the people involved to try to communicate and work toward a common goal. In this case, the willingness to communicate and cooperate was in no doubt aided by the common faith of the participants. It definitely helps that racial reconciliation and social equality is mandated by Scripture (see Galatians 3:27-29, Colossians 3:9-12, James 2:1-12 in the New Testament of the Bible)

Sadly, sometimes even a common faith may not be enough to power a real dialogue. While the response to marko’s letter of apology was overwhelming positive from both Asian and non-Asian Christians, a noticeable minority of “Christians” made comments disapproving of marko’s apology on his blog and remarked that “some people are too sensitive” (a thinly-veiled reference to Asians in light of the incident and other people of color). Others made the common pseudo-tolerant proclamation that they are “colorblind” and that Asians who feel offended are needed to just “get over it.” It’s the classic “blame the victim” approach of white privilege and framing the issue of racism as mere “sensitivity.”

Still, other people and myself can’t help but feel that this incident might be a catalyst for more positive changes in the Christian church, which Soong-Chan Rah once insightfully remarked in a sermon that we are living in a time of western white captivity of the church (hat tip to thecuttingtruth again for the quote). I have a vision that progressive Asian American Christians of the 21st century will play a significant role in reshaping the modern Christian church - which today is mired in hypocrisy, shallowness, and a slavish devotion to a Western colonialistic perspective that ignores the other evils of our age: poverty, militarism, global warming, etc.

Of course, whether or not the Asian American Christian community itself wants that role is completely different discussion fit for another article…

Not they are definitely not the same. Mormons do not believe in the Trinity.

they’re not thhe same trust me,

LDS - “Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became THE FATHER OF AN INFERIOR RACE. A curse was placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so WHILE TIME ENDURES. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with a BLACK SKIN and have been DENIED THE PRIVILEGE OF PRIESTHOOD and the fulness of the blessings of the Gospel. These are the descendants of Cain. Moreover, they have been made to FEEL THEIR INFERIORITY and have been SEPARATED from the rest of mankind from the beginning. Enoch saw the people of Canaan, descendants of Cain, and he says, ‘and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were DESPISED AMONG ALL PEOPLE.’” LDS “Prophet” Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, pp. 101-102, 1931

LDS - “In the spirit of SYMPATHY, MERCY and faith, we will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to our negro brethren, for they are our brethren - children of God - NOTWITHSTANDING THEIR BLACK COVERING EMBLEMATICAL OF ETERNAL DARKNESS.” LDS “Prophet” Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p. 102, 1931,—

Ha. You claim me to be the idiot, and yet you obviously know nothing of my church. Joseph Smith Junior was the first prophet of the church. There were two more Joseph Smiths who eventually made their way into the presidency.

Joseph F. Smith(or Joseph Fielding Smith Sr.) was the son of Hyrum Smith, who died with his brother in Joseph smith Jr. in Carthage Jail, shot through the eye. Joseph F. Smith would not become the prophet of the church until October 17, 1901. And I’ll be frank, almost everyone was a racist then. Even I and Prestondakness would likely be racists, simply because of the state of society.

Joseph Fielding Smith(Joseph fielding Smith Junior) was the son of the previously mentioned individual. He would not become prophet until January 23, 1970, and died shortly after from old age and the health complications that accompany such. And don’t say he got it from Joseph Smith Junior, because he was only five years old at the time of Joseph’s and Hyrum’s deaths.

If you are to quote someone, please specify who, and ensure your terminology is correct. Whenever you hear ANYONE talk about Joseph Smith, it’s Joseph Smith Junior. Not his father, not his nephew or great(x unknown number) nephew, but Joseph Smith Junior. Almost no one knows who the other Joseph’s are, and generally specify when they are talking about them, unless, of course, they’re using classic propaganda techniques.

I am not my father. He and I share the same initials, and only our middle names are different. Even physically, we appear extremely similar, albeit the color of our hair. But as individuals, we are completely different, and at times, we have been at the most extreme of odds as a result. He is often concerned with my views of the church, and sometimes, often the result of my own machinations, I must admit, we’ve been at each other’s throats. One or twice, you could say literally. And just as a general, day to day person, we are extremely different, I content with logic and facts(excluding religion;there’s nothing logical about it, as we all have a sense of morality on the instinctual level), and to remain cold and emotionless, even in the face of horrible circumstances, such as a death or a horrible accident. He, and I envy this, seems to more easily express his emotions, and has no shame in it. Of course, like with my mother, this can lead to confrontations, but it probably doesn’t help that when I become angry, rather than throwing a fit(most of the time), I become arrogant.

—Preston replies…///………………..reX is attacking NO ONE AT AL;L—

Really? I may be arrogant, but at least I know when I throw a knife at another person, or slash out at their neck with my sword. With a few exceptions, I have done nothing but confront your narrow attacks with what has been proven to be fact. Yes, people were racist. Most white men, to one degree or another, were. Open racial supremacy has only become taboo in about the past 30-40 years, depending on what part of the country you’re talking about. There were in fact 3 “Joseph Smiths” who would eventually become presidents of the church, though they were literally generations apart from each other time-wise. And if you study the entirety of what each has to say, while each remains to the overall teachings of the church, they were each very different in how the presented themselves, and preached to help better strengthen a generation based on its individual weaknesses.

—IN FACT … why E S …Brigham Young certainly did enforce His & ….satanic ….& Joe Smiths … RACIST opinions on AS MANY PEOPLE THEY COULD MANIPULATE…… { THE MORMON CHURCH of Lucifer.. ….—

Let’s scratch some of that out, shall we? And you gave Brigham Young a his with a capital H? I’m honored you see him that way, but we don’t worship the prophets. They’re not our saviors, not in a long shot.

—In fact, Brigham Young certainly did enforce his racist opinions on many people looking to join the Mormon church.—

Now look at that. Not only does it get the point across without too much hate evident, but it looks a lot better. You look so much better dressed this way, Mister Preston.

—reX replies…………..I have no desire to Compel any one to follow ANY OF MY…..WAYs OF THINKING…..

my ways …?,…

reX seeks to COMPELL….all man to follow the BIBLE…..& JESUS CHRIST…….—

No, with your propaganda, you are bluntly trying to bring other people about to your way of thinking. There are plenty of people who are excellent followers of Chirst’s teachings who do not blatantly attack any other religions. We of the LDS church follow the Bible as well as any other Christian. In some cases, better, as we don’t believe that by simply saying, “I believe!” that you go to heaven. One must live the teachings of Christ. Either that, or truly remain completely ignorant of even his teachings, such as those in the isolated parts of Asia and Africa, or those on islands, act. I think most of the Native Americans will go to the higher part of heaven, because I’m certain there were as many good men and women among them as there are among us. In the Book of Mormon, several of the prophets and stewards(men who weren’t prophets, but simply keepers of the plates) spoke of how the Lamanites(Native Americans) would be given a chance at heaven, as because of their hostility towards the Nephites due to the traditions of their fathers, the gospel of the Old Testament could not be spread to them. It wasn’t until later in the Book of Mormon that the beliefs of the three degrees of glory were presented. Most of the “righteous”(I’m not saying they were the good guys or the bad guys) Nephites lived by the law of Moses for many of their centuries of existence.

—consider the MORMON WAY OF THINKING………Telestial Kingdoms

(the lowest of the three degrees of glory) is to all mormons who are failing & being punished……..

OUTCASTED….FROM THE TOP LEVEL….

THROWN TO THE BOTTOM OF MORMON….HEAVEN…

PROBABLY…IN the lowest level. Of………..HEAVEN WITH DARKER SKIN…{ according to Mormon theology {}} ??? ?? ??? ? ? —

No, a Black man, an Asian man, an Indian have as good a chance to get into the Celestial Kingdom as a White man. The same goes for the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms.

The Celestial Kingdom is where God resides. His most virtuous children go there. And as I said before, if you truly did not have a chance to learn of his teachings or to get married in the temple, you have a shot for here. Here is a chance for truly eternal progression.

The Terrestrial kingdom is the next level down, often compared to the moon in its radiance when compared with the sun. Your progression, after a time, comes to an end.

The Telestial kingdom, a place for those who knew of the gospel, had a chance at everything, but simply didn’t take it(I being an example, at least until further notice) go. Even murderers would go here, though don’t really know if this could stop their progression to another kingdom if other circumstances were fulfilled.

Outer darkness, or Hell, is where only the most vile go. These men, even after having received a testimony of the gospel in the brightest of Christ’s light, actively set out to destroy every aspect of his work. Essentially what’s called “Denying the Holy Ghost.” Often compared to going out at noon-time and teaching people it was night. And just for clarification, no Preston, I’m not saying you’re going here. Or to the Celestial Kingdom, or Terrestrial, or Telestial. That is not for me to judge.

—1 Nephi 12:23 (Prophecy of Lamanites after Christ) “. . . became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.”

1 Nephi 13:15 (Gentiles) “. . . they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people [Nephites] before they were slain.”

2 Nephi 5:21 “. . . a sore cursing . . . as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.”

2 Nephi 30:6 (Prophecy to Lamanites) “. . . scales of darkness shall begin to fall . . . they shall be a white and delightsome people.” (Changed to pure and delightsome in 1981)

Jacob 3:5 (Lamanites cursed) “. . .whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins. . .”

Jacob 3:8-9 “. . .their skins will be whiter than yours . . . revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins . . .”

Alma 3:6 “. . . skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion. . .” —

Those of you who quote scripture verses of passages from supplemental materials, could you provide the appropriate references, and perhaps stop hacking away parts of a passage? In fact, it wouldn’t be a bad idea to post the entire chapter or section from which they’re from, to provide perspective on the words being said.

Like my history professor says, rather than coming up with a conclusion based on your own prejudices and piecing together bits of evidence so you can “prove” something, put your emotions aside, find all of the CREDIBLE evidence that you can, put it in its appropriate order, and objectively test SEVERAL hypothesis with that evidence. Ultimately, one should be willing to go through this entire process over and over if a single new shred of evidence is produced, as this can easily change the outcome in a significant way.

I will admit, I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Obviously, my credibility in any form or way just went out the window because of my religious preference, at least where I live, the Bible Belt of America, the South.

Now, what I would have you know is that for the entirety of my teen years, I have personally found nothing but greif and sorrow within this church. Well, I shouldn’t say that’s the only thing, but its enough to drive a weak-willed individual to hatred. The reason for my predicament is because, unlike most in the Christian faith, I constantly question mine and other’s beleifs, and very openly. Every day, I add to my personal codes, remove from them, or perhaps simply change them. I am what I like to call a Christian(not religious) moderate, because I am continually finding new ideas which, frankly, make more sense than the last ones. I will have to say, though, that this church of which I am a member, has a lot of good ideas, and offers answers about the infinite that are a bit more detailed than most other Christian sects.

The first that there are many misconceptions about is our beliefs of the Godhead, God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. First off, no, we don’t believe in the Trinity. The trinity is a concept of men that took an entire century to decide. Throughout the Bible, there is enough contradiction about the matter as to the seperation or oneness of these entitys.

But, assuming God and Jesus have physical forms, wouldn’t that mean they could not occupy the same space? Or perform their duties(namely during Christs ministry). It is proven fact that matter, when left to its own devices, destroys itself, and any object that it makes. Here are several quotes from Jesus while he was on the cross that should be conclusive in this matter.

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.” And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Matthew 27: 46 “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani, that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

Mark 15: 34 “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani, which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

Luke 23: 46 “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit”

Now, wouldn’t it be arrogant to call yourself “Father”? Especially if you are the humblest and meek of all to walk the Earth?

As for the Holy Ghost, from my perspective, he does not have a body, thus he is able to be in an infinite number of places at once, but still retains a singular consciousness.

The next is heaven and hell. I don’t know what idiots they had out on the mission field, but we most definitely believe in a hell. We just believe that God loves ALL of his children, and has provided a way to ensure that the majority end up somewhere decent for eternity, even if they weren’t the best. However, like one of my fellow intellectuals expressed, “Would it be fair to promote someone to a job position, someone who has worked hard for years, then to go and promote someone else who, despite having worked the same amount of time, expressed no enthusiasm and put out little effort during those years, to the same or equivalent position?” I personally see the three degrees of glory as a better alternative to, “Me and my buds, heaven, everyone else, hell.” If you were ignorant of Chirst’s teachings, I don’t think you’ll be punished the same as someone who was, but certainly rewarded for your good works when they were provided. Where hell falls in is for those who were in the most bright parts of day, having a full testimony of Christ and his teachings, just to not only turn their backs on it, but to actively attack it. I’m not talking about disgruntled ex-mormons, I’m talking about rare individuals like Judas. Hell, I believe, is reserved for truly the darkest of humanity, a place not even Hitler(I think) will have to lay eyes on.

As to regarding the various scripture, the Book of Mormon is not a second Bible. In fact, don’t even let the name decieve you. Mormon was the individual who sought to preserve those records and abridge them into a single book towards the final chapters of the Book, in spite of the imminent destruction of his nation and his eventual death. Only his son, Moroni, is mentioned after him in this book, as the final carrier of the plates, the one who eventually buried them. But, getting back on topic, the church puts more emphasis on the Bible, especially the New Testament. I, personally, have been reading various passages of Translation from the Dead Sea scrolls, and they are most…enlightening, especially the unabridged form of the book of Isiah, though most of my local mormon associates don’t like it when I bring my knowledge of these to church.

Now, the polygamy issue. This is one I still have a hard time on, and still don’t approve of. We do not actively practice polygamy, and member caught attempting to is immediately ex-communicated and generally reported to the proper authorities. However, it is true that Joseph Smith was married to multiple women. In fact, I beleive it was something like 33. Did he have sexual relationships with most of them? I doubt it. Polygamy, in the negligible percentage of marriages that it was practiced in, was often a means to an end for widows and such, though I grimace as I write “often”, and am sad to say I can’t write “always”. And any D&C scripture references that you can bring to bear glorifying joseph smith in this respect, especially this one:

Verses 62-63: And if he [Joseph Smith] have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified… for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfill the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.

are poor ones, because this was written after his murder, by Brigham Young and other authorities of the church. Also take note that this verse is abridged, due to its ridiculous length. I’ll do best to make this the only hypocrisy in my message.

Then we believe in baptism, and believe it is necessary to enter heaven, thus our baptisms for the dead in our temples. We’re not adding these passed individuals to our membership rolls, supposedly we’re giving them the passage they need to continue. And no, we don’t bring dead bodies or anything into our temples. You have a normal baptism in the font, and a person stands in for them. Of course, this is one piece of doctrine I am still investigating, even after having participated in them twice now(though not in any time recent).

Now the entire authority base to the church, based on a MAN’s level in the priesthood, is something I have issues with. Unfortunately, I’ve been kicked too many times in the nuts by my younger sisters to be able to consider females an inferior sex(just kidding, but I have the same respect for any person, regardless of race, sex, or disposition).

Now all of your accusations of racial discrimination are a bit hypocritical. If one studies history in an objective manner, up until about fourty years ago, the White man, and more specifically, the english-descended, American White man, was the majority, and considered itself the most superior race on Earth. A good percentage of the US Presidents made remarks and even speeches regarding to this. And every White man was making this practice. You thought we were bad(when in fact, Joseph Smith ordained the first black man to the priesthood), take a look at your own denominations. More than one PREACHED white supremacy, rather than made off-hand comments about it. Though I do find it a shame it was in the past 40 years that such prejudices had to be forcefully removed, its all over with. Not to mention the entire story of Cain, I think, is all bs…

And finally, the church bending in to governmental pressure. I don’t think that the incident in the 70s was the result of revelation, nor were there claims to it. Now the thing involving polygamy back in the 1800s, maybe. But it took quite a while, and the US was going to have Utah, whether it was through diplomacy or force. The Mexican-American War and Indian Wars were evidence of that. The Prophets claim of wanting to stand his ground, even though the temples would be taken, may have had some credibility.

And on a final note, I’m so glad that we’re just combating in words. Back in the mid 1800s, when you guys would come out and start shooting up homes and businesses with rifles and the occasional cannon, or beating people to death with your bare fists, that was horrible. Of course, you can still try, if you don’t mind finding out what 12 gauge shotgun slugs and 5.56mm NATO from an AR-15 feel like. But of course, no one has the guts to back up their words with violence anymore. Not even I.

“The gospel message of salvation is NOT CARRIED AFFIRMATIVELY TO THEM [blacks]…”

Those dots indicate that you are leaving parts out(which you do in the center of entire passages throughout your rants), and owning a number of the books you quote, you conveniently leave out anything that gives any context to the message.

I can not speak for the various individuals who have made their way up the Mormon hierarchy into the various presidencies, nor do I presume to. At no point did we ever teach racism, those were merely offhand comments by individual men.

When I say supplemental materials, anything that you quote from outside the Bible. Book or Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, the various Mormon magazines, various lesson manuals, ect, which you have quoted dozens of times. Unless, of course, you’re just another one of those frauds who gets all his ideas from online, and just passes them on. It seems there’s a lot of those cases going around.

No, the D&C does NOT glorify polygamy. The individuals within who continued it after Joseph Smith’s death do. Perhaps if you were willing to read the entire thing through before passing your ignorant judgment on my brothers and sister, you would understand that it is more of a history of a church, and explains the various church’s various doctrines as they came to be, and in some cases, demise. But polygamy wasn’t the only one. Something called the “United Order”, following the law of consecration, failed, simply because it was incompatible with human nature. Some may say that it resembled modern day communism, but that is an ignorant statement, as it was more charity than anything. If you wish to discuss that further, you may funmail me, for I have no wish to give the undereducated Prestondakness any more material with which to slander.

But how do you know Mormonism to be a lie? Have you studied their culture and teachings in depth? I’m willing to be that you have never even sat in on one of their classes. If you have, it was a single Sunday, and you entered into the experience with a spirit of contempt and contention. Unless, of course, you’re a disgruntled member like me, but rather than continuing his investigations, decides to antagonize one of the more truthful organizations in this world. That would make a lot more sense, as it would explain how you obtained the materials. Which still technically makes you a Mormon, as you most likely have been baptized, which means your records are still in the LDS mainframe. Not even brave enough to go get yourself ex-communicated…

If you wish to talk of contradictions, you will find dozens within any translation of the Bible, especially the more “modernized” versions. Holding truth up to the Bible is both ignorant and arrogant. Truth, unfortunately, is subjective to how one views the world. Unfortunate, closed minded individuals such as Prestondakness will never be able to delve into anything but what their Pastor or Preacher tell them. They are not even willing to study the entirety of the scriptures[Bible] themselves and ponder, interpret, and pray about it. Often, I must admit, being a Christian moderate, you must adventure outside of the realm of scripture and research archaeological, sociological, physiological, sociological, philosophical, and scientific findings. The Bible explains creation, but not the physics behind it, as one man put it. The scriptures indicate a lifestyle one should live, but not so much about the sociological or physical nature of the universe we live in.

It says in Revelations that those who add it it will be cursed. So many use this against Mormon teachings, yet they either forget or don’t realize that Revelations was one of the earliest books written in the New Testament. Not to mention it’s a part of the “BIBLE”. We never make claim that the BOM or D&C are additions to the Bible. In fact, “another testament” should indicate to you that it better supports Christ and his Ministry. However, the Bible still remains the center of our most basic teachings.

On the last case, we do not teach polygamy, have not for over a century, and ex-communicate any who attempt to. If you want to go off on polygamy, go attack the FLDS[Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints]. Their fraud profit is in prison essentially for the rest of his of his life. If I’m not mistaken, Joseph Smith was only arrested for temporary periods of time, always somehow being released because the charges against him proved to be false in the eyes of NON-Mormon juries.

At least until a mob of over one hundred gunned him down. That’s kinda sad, that it took close to 150 men to kill just two. Cowards, in the least. If they were so right, only a few of them would have come, and without any sort of disguise, because if they were so RIGHT in MURDER, then GOD would have ensured that they would have walked free and guiltless. Unfortunately, even these men realized somewhere inside of them that what they were doing was wrong, and that they wouldn’t get away with it any other way.

Okay, you’re really getting annoying. I don’t think even literate people have an easy time reading what you’re writing. Not to mention that all the caps are sore on the eyes.

Ya, we had our problems. We were a part of the same society as every one else. I can tell you from personal observation that one’s society and culture can have a greater impact on them than a religion or parents ever could. But before you go off on us again, even Brigham Young brought up in one of his talks that religious fanaticism and blind faith in any leader would lead us straight to hell. Even he, at the time, saw how blindly most people followed, and obviously, this bothered him. Ya, he may have been a racist, but at least he respected that each man think for himself.

No, a poor, needy Black man did not join the church. He was simply one of a handful of Black men to receive the priesthood prior to the 1970s. If he was so weak, so needy, he wouldn’t have made it into the church presidency. Weak, needy men crack under pressure before they get their. It can be observed many times over the years.

—This is what this debater is trying to wind his ….roar…..down to a moderate humble….HUM…….Ho HUM……all whites were like mormons / all mormons were like all whites……—

No, not at all. You see, Mormons didn’t march out and slaughter dozens of individuals because of religious fanaticism, as much as some of them may have been. They may have defended their homes while their wives and children fled, joining them as soon as everyone was safe away, but we never marched but on one occasion(it was an incident warranting much needed civil defense), and it turned out that things resolved themselves peacefully by the time everyone got their, so everyone went home happy. There was that one supposed massacre in Utah, but the fact was that the “victims” of that massacre were plundering crops, killing livestock, and committing various higher crimes against the already settled Mormons. And we all know that on the frontier, your crops and livestock are all you have to survive off of. If someone was causing a big enough problem out in the West, he got hung generally. Those settlers just snapped one day after seeming eons of trying to be a better people. And there is a misconception that Brigham Young was involved in that. He was not. He wasn’t even aware of the incidents that lead to the massacre until after it had happened, much less the actual event.

Again, I must ask, what is truth? God’s truth is the only absolute, and because we are imperfect beings, we will never be able to understand it in its fullness. That is why there is so much confusion, even to extent within the LDS church. We just all have a different way of looking at things.

Again, where do you get that Joseph Smith Jr. was a freaking racist? The only things I’ve ever read or heard of involved the Native Americans, and in no condescending way(The LDS members made quite an addition to their numbers out West in the form of Native American converts, so obviously, no one had a problem with them). The entire mark of Cain can actually be traced back to the preachings of Moses, if you took the time to read all of the books that he personally wrote. In fact, you can find the Book of Moses in the links I posted. It is one of the things that you claim Joseph Smith frauded during his personal translation of the Bible(all of which is published separately from the King James version, which is the one we use), but you will find it written in the same style as Moses’s other books, and would find it quite in line with the rest of the Bible. But no, you can find hints of racism in the other books, also. Especially those nice ones that talk about the racial cleansing of the land of Canaan. Not racist at all…

Yes, we claim we are the one. So does the Catholic Church, so do the Jews, so do the Muslims, and so do most Protestant religions, with the exception of “Non-denominational”s. I assume you’re non denominational, too, right? Or is your way the one, also? That would be in line with you having to force men onto the “right” path as followers of Christ.

No, I’m not going to walk up to you and tell you you are wrong. Nor will most Mormons. Like with all religions, we have our bad apples, but for the most part, like with a good portion of other Christians, we’re content with ourselves and our families, and don’t actively and publicly preach against any other religion. I don’t. I mean, I’ll admit I think I’m right, and try to explain to you where I’m coming from, but unless you have some further interest, I shut up after what’s needed is said. I have no interest in involving people in something that they don’t want to be.

I have provided you with everything you wanted Preston. I provided you with proof of my many accusations of your lies and half-truths. By attempting to use my religion’s own book against us, you instantly and blatantly provided me with proof, even more so than in all of the earlier posts put together(anyone who reads the entire discussion thoroughly will see your intent, and how you DO quote things halfway). I am no judge of Israel, but this is called bearing false witness unto thy neighbor, and lying. I do not judge you, Preston, despite the fact that you compare me to our most lowly brother, Satan, by calling me the “Master Liar”. Satan is the “Master Liar”, the “Father of all Lies”, the “Father of Sin”, and so many other titles. By performing these actions, Preston, you are proving that you as an individual are not so righteous as you think. I have not lied here, if if I have, it is out of my own lack of knowledge or foresight. I have spilled my guts to you in the most humble manner I could without actually bending my back, and yet you went from attacking my church to attacking me, as an individual, bringing to question my integrity as a child of God, who is most content with peace. I do not make a call to arms, as you do, but I beg for indulgence, for enlightenment. And no, not enlightenment into the eternal mysteries of the universe, but enlightenment and understanding of but a small speck upon a speck in that universe. So many attack us because they fear what we have to offer, which is offered with no sinister or ulterior intent behind it. We truly just wish to offer people peace and happiness, but so many would make themselves miserable in order to stop our work. And that’s often all they do: make THEMSELVES miserable. I stopped actively and constantly contending for(and more recently, with) my church because, well, I wasted so much time worrying about that that deep down, I was unhappy because I could have spent that time doing other things.

Just think about this: If God does not fail to see a sparrow fall from the sky, or a blade of grass wither away and die in the heat of day, would he fail to notice the nations of the world, or the churches within those nations? In the New Testament, every time a religious organization of dark origins made its way into the Jew’s midst, it was dealt with by the second or third generation, sometimes even the first. If the LDS church was so bad, or even the many Christian religions out there, we so bad, why have they persevered for centuries? Because there were MANY earlier Christian sects that would last for a couple three generations, then slowly die out. If one’s teachings are ultimately good(barring the individual’s actual actions), I don’t think God will destroy it, because, like I said before, most people are content with themselves, and don’t actively set out against anyone. Only the minority ever make the call to arms in the religious sense. Even the Ottoman empire did not expand for religious reasons. Most of the Islamic tribes were literally at each other’s throats during the prospering years of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire was just that: a growing, expanding EMPIRE. And so far, Mormon’s haven’t done anything to expand as a nation. Utah was only a haven where we happened to settle. Ever seen the Salt Lake Valley? The mountains essentially make it into a natural fortress. I think it would have been some number of centuries before anything Empirical came of that, assuming the American Empire hadn’t annexed it.

Well my brothers and sisters, including you, Preston, I apologize that this has gone on so long. It is an obvious testament to my immaturity, as I ad truly intended this to be over after the first couple of posts. But, as you all probably know, one’s blood tends to boil when they and those they’re associated with are called thieves and liars. I look forward to continued posts, though part of me hopes to never have to lay eyes on this forum again. Have a good day, and try to not be hypocrites like Preston and I. You’ll feel much better for it.

(continuation)

Another article I found, written by a non-Mormon, found here. I do not own this. http://www.angelfire.com/ga/kevgram/racism.html

One of the most repeated charges against the Mormon Church is that it is based in racism. This is undoubtedly because the Church at one time did not allow African Americans to obtain the priesthood. When the prophet Gordon B. Hinckley was asked why this used to be, he responded by saying that it was how scripture was interpreted at that time and was revealed through revelation in 1978 that every man who is worthy to hold the priesthood should hold it no matter what his ethnic background may be. Ironically enough, the larger group that seems to advertise the alleged racism in Mormonism, lies within the Southern Baptist circles. This organization has launched a well financed campaign against the LDS Church in an attempt to “expose” what Mormons really believe and to prove once and for all that we are not Christians in any sense. This article is mainly an attempt to show the extreme hypocrisy among other churches involving these racist accusations. When I found out that Southern Baptists of all people were accusing the LDS members of being racist, I almost passed out from giggling. Being a former Southern Baptist myself, I have a little insight and knowledge when comparing the attitudes between these two Churches concerning racism. The most amazing and indisputable fact of the matter is, the Southern Baptist Conventions sole claim to existence originated with its insistence on remaining to be slave owners. This was the big debated issue that spawned this Convention into existence. Just recently the Southern Baptists offered and apology to the African American people about its racist beginnings and this will be quoted below. Another thing that anti-Mormons will not tell you is that slavery was a really big issue in their early persecutions against the Mormons. But it wasn’t because they supported slavery, but only that they refused to have slaves. These are racist beginnings? Perhaps the only Christian Church at that time which rejected the institution of slavery was the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The anti-Mormons of today contend that we are racist because we did not permit African Americans to hold the priesthood at one time, yet at the same time ignore the fact that Negroes were not even allowed to attend some of their Churches at all. Churches that they would agree to be “Christian.” I see hypocrisy in two areas dealing with this issue here. First are the facts that show Mormons would be the last of the bunch to be considered racist. The second involves a more recent charge against the LDS Church that says, “Mormons are trying to evolve out of their old ways in an attempt to appear to be more mainstream Christian.” This is a cop out arguement in the finest sense, considering that LDS doctrine has not changed as they would like it to appear and the “changes” listed by the detractors are seriously misunderstood or over exaggerated. Even if this does hold true, what is their to be said of the lastest moves by the Southern Baptist Church whos pride and past include members of the original Klu Klux Klan that based their justifications and actions in their “Christian” beliefs? Facts show that thousands of negroes were not only discriminated against but murdered by people involved in both the KKK and the SBC. I am not trying to say that the SBC condoned such actions, but if it is ok to assume Mormons are racists because of the priesthood issue and that the LDS theology involves a superior and inferior race clause somewhere, then what, using this same logic applied, should one conclude about the many Southern Baptist members who were involved in slavery and lynchings? Anti-Mormon detractors refuse to hold their own faith, history and beliefs to the same level of scrutiy in which they so conveniently demand of the Mormons. It is easy to pick on someone else who is right and make them appear to be wrong as long as you can consistently create unequal playing fields to which the conclusions are always shifted in your favor. The absence of Mormon responses to such criticisms I believe, has allowed such unequal grounds and this is an attempt to speak out as a former Southern Baptist and current LDS and bear my testimony of the truth and facts I have learned concerning this debate. The issue is so refutable because it is not even the pot calling the kettle black that makes this task so simple; it is more like the pot calling the bar of soap black and anyone who has ever experienced membership in the LDS Church should know that racism is not condoned nor has it ever been in LDS doctrine. I wish the same could be said about our brothers in the SBC. Hopefully when they see their own vulnerability through historical research, they might be a little more careful and hesistant when launching against the LDS faith.

One Minute Answers by Stephen W. Gibson Reviewed by Kevin Graham

Question: Didn’t the Church claim to have a revelation from God in 1978 allowing the Blacks to get the priesthood just to stem rising social pressure?

Anti-Mormon critics who make this claim reveal a serious lack of knowledge of LDS contemporary history. Social pressure wasn’t increasing against the Church–the contrary is true. There was little social pressure upon the Church in the late 1970’s regarding this issue, especially when compared with the early 1960’s. Readers may judge for themselves after reviewing the facts. When Latter-day Saint George ROmney was a candidate for the United States Presidency, nearly every news magazine carried articles on the then-current policy of the Church regarding the Negroes not holding the priesthood. In 1965, 250 people marched on Church headquarters demanding that the Church make a statement regarding civil rights. Around that same time, newspapers in Arizona, California, and Wyoming reported that sports teams from those states were refusing to compete with BYU teams because of what they alleged were “racist polocies” practiced by the Church.

But by July of 1974, nine years later, public controversy regarding Blacks and the priesthood was almost non-existent. In June of 1978 the First Presidency announced that President Spencer W. Kimball had recieved a revelation regarding the ordaining of all worthy men to the priesthood. The above facts will show that social pressure was much less in 1978 than in 1965; clearly social pressure had declined significantly. The 1978 change has been poplular with nearly everyone except Anti-Mormon detractors, who incorrectly refer to it as a “revelation of convenience.” These are some of the same detractors who previously were insisting that the Church was false because Blacks could not hold the priesthood.

Before leaving this subject, it is appropriate to make comparison between the practices of Latter-day Saints and other denominations in their relationships with African-Americans. Throughout the history of the Church, Negroes who were members have been fellowshipped in white congregations and have attended Church services with them. In contrast, African-Americans were not welcome to participate with white congregations in many protestant churches. They met seperately and even formed ecclesiastical conventions. Joseph Smith, in his bid for the presidency of the United States, took a strong stand for freeing the slaves. This was in distict contrast to the position of other churches, which were pro-slavery. The past pro-slavery, anti-Negro attitude of such churches is reflected in an event which occurred in June 1995 at the Southern Baptist Convention. A newspaper article summarized the historical situation as follows:

Baptist ministers view apology with skepticism Some question motive behind Southern group’s statement on past racism

The Southern Baptist Convention made religious history last month when it apologized to African-Americans for its racist beginnings. But local black Baptist ministers say the public apology is meaningless without significant deeds. And they say they’ll be watching…”In the 1840’s, the Southern Bapist Convention was formed because they wanted the right to own slaves. In the 1950’s, they stood in opposition to equal rights. The problem most Negroes have (with this resolution) is when the SBC had an opportunity to stand in favor of equal rights, they didn’t,” said the Rev. George Glass Jr., pastor of New Pilgrim Baptist Church. “Now when the’re presented with certain situations in the future, where will they stand?”

The historic rift in the Baptist Church occurred in the early to mid-1800’s. Fundamentally, the issue was a north vs. south, industrial vs. agrarian one. Slaveholders and slavery were central to the debate. Southerners, dependent on slave labor for the economic gifts it produced, demanded the right to chattel property. Northerners, with their industrial base, largely oppossed slavery as a moral issue. In 1845, the SBC seceded from the American Baptist Association. The southern secession guaranteed slaveholders would continue to serve as missionaries, something the national body wouldn’t allow. At it’s 150th anniversary meeting June 20-22 in Atlanta, the convention adopted an 18-paragraph resolution repenting past racism. There are 15 million Southern Baptists nationwide, according to Jim Harding, executive director of the Utah-Idaho Southern Baptist Convention.

“This is recognition of something that had long since needed to be said. We’re just saying we recognize this,” Harding said from his Sandy office. “This is something we can’t go back and change, but we can set something right now and do something appropriate.” Harding who represents 22,000 members in the two-state are, said the national convention has been working on the resolution for at least the past two years. But Rev. Glass, whose 160-member congregation is affiliated with the National Baptist Convention wonders if the SBC’s indentions are entirely pure. “The question is, is it true repentance or a strategic plan for future growth? you can only evangelize a certain number of whites, then you have to go into other races,” the Rev. Glass said. “I think we’ll see the answer in the following months.”..Undoubtedly, though, the Rev. Glass thinks the SBC’s timing for the resolution is good, especially since he’s been recently considering the National Baptist Church’s inability to provide the ministries and financial support his congregation needs.

“This has been like a bad shadow hanging over them since the 1850’s. The must realize many African-Americans will watch the SBC closely in the months to come.” “Will African-Americans be appointed to positions of leadership and governing boards? If this is true repentance, we should already see (blacks) rising.” Pastor France Davis, of Calvary Baptist Church, agreed with the Rev. Glass on the timing of the SBC resolution and also promised to watch the convention’s deeds. “It certainly is a good-faith effort. The proof will be whether repentance means reconciliation,” Pastor Davis said. “Lots of people are trying to make a move toward amending with minorities: the pope for the way dealt with Muslims and atrocities during the Nazi era, Lutherans for their anti-Semitism. Five months ago, Pentecostals formed one umbrella organization to bring white and black congregations together, and there’s a proposal by Methodists to do the same thing with African Methodist Episcopal. Christian Methodist Episcopal, African Methodist Episcopal Zion, and Methodist Episcopal churches.” With 1,900 black Southern Baptist churches in the 39,000-congregations strong Southern Baptist Convention, Pastor Davis says maybe the resolution will help deal with some of the growing hatred in america. “Maybe it’ll help solve some of the festering conflicts. My hope is it’ll lead to practical change,” said Pastor Davis, whose church is dually aligned with the National Baptist and American Baptist Conventions.”

Nice little article I found here. I do not own this website or claim ownership of the article.

http://atheism.about.com/b/2006/08/27/christian-racism-in-the-south-church-turns-away-biracial-boy.htm

Christian Racism in the South: Church Turns Away Biracial Boy

Sunday August 27, 2006

It wasn’t that long ago that Christians in the South kept their churches segregated on an official basis: white churches simply prevented non-whites from attending. Today churches tend to be segregated out of choice and tradition rather than due to official rules. Some Christians may prefer the “good old days” and want their churches to be officially segregated.

The Northeast Mississippi Daily Journal reports on the Fellowship Baptist Church in Saltillo, Mississippi, which voted to deny all blacks membership and as a consequence turned away a biracial boy who had recently converted to Christianity:

On Aug. 6, during its scheduled Sunday night business meeting, Fellowship Baptist Church in Saltillo voted not to accept blacks within the church. More specifically, the congregation also voted Joe out and said he could not return.

That evening Fellowship Baptist did not just say goodbye to Joe and an entire race of humans. With that decision the church’s pastor, the Rev. John Stevens, resigned, and at least one other family decided not to return to the Baptist Missionary Alliance congregation that averages 30 people.

The church was “afraid Joe might come with his people and have blacks in the church,” Stevens said. “I could not go along with that. There would always be a wall between us, so I resigned that night.”

Cliff Hardy, an officer with the Tupelo Police Department, left the church, too. He and his family had been going to Fellowship Baptist for about a year and had been praying about becoming members there. 

This isn’t a newly formed church meeting in people’s home or in a storefront; this is a 143-year-old church with a lot of history, even if it’s relatively small. John Stevens estimates that about 80 percent of the congregation is opposed to the presence of black people in their midst while worshipping their god and praising how Jesus died for their sins.

“People have got to realize we’re all God’s children,” Jason Kirk said. “It’s not God so loved the white people; it’s God so loved the world.” 

Well, in theory that’s what Christian doctrine is supposed to be but I don’t think that’s what people in the Fellowship Baptist Church believe. It’s unreasonable to think that they consider racism, discrimination, and segregation to be sins, otherwise they would be knowingly engaging in a sin while praising Jesus for dying for their sins. I don’t suppose it’s impossible for people to adopt such contradictory positions, but it would be difficult. At any rate, this story helps make it clear that not only is racism not dead in America and especially the American South, but it’s not dead even in the context of Christianity and church attendance.

Another, found her. I do not own this. It’s just the first part, as it was an 8 page report. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_n13_v113/ai_18226920

THE TOP social policy official of the Southern Baptist Convention has harshly criticized an all-white Southern Baptist church in Georgia whose leaders wanted to exhume the body of a baby from a church cemetery after learning that the child was biracial. Officials of Barnetts Creek Baptist Church in Thomasville, Georgia, reversed, their plan after pressure from congregants who were alerted to the situation by news media.

Nevertheless, Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Christian Life Commission, criticized the church for its original intentions. “I am confident that most Southern Baptists join me in finding the proposed actions of Barnetts Creek Church reprehensible and an embarrassment to the gospel of Christ,” Land declared in a statement issued March 28. The leaders of the Georgia church decided that the body of Whitney Elaine Johnson could remain in the cemetery, where no blacks had been buried.

“For the record, we are not going to exhume the baby,” said the 130-member church’s part-time pastor Leon VanLandingham, according to the Associated Press. The baby girl, who was born without a completely formed skull and died 19 hours later, was buried March 22. Her mother, Jamie Wireman, 18, is white and her father, Jeffrey Johnson, 25, is black.

Sylvia Leverett, Wireman’s mother, said deacon Logan Lewis told her a church policy dating to the 1800s barred minorities from the cemetery. “I couldn’t understand or believe somebody could do this to a child,” said Wireman, who attends the church occasionally. “It shouldn’t matter what color she is. She is a child of God.” According to a New York Times report, Leverett said Lewis told her that “they don’t allow half-breeds in their cemetery.” He said, “That’s a 100 percent white cemetery.’” Also, Lewis was quoted in the Christian Index of Georgia as saying, “It’s not a racial thing. It’s a way of life. It’s been that way.” Georgia and national Southern Baptist officials argued that they had no authority over Barnetts Creek because all churches in the denomination are autonomous.

The controversy comes at a time when Southern Baptists are taking pains to distance themselves from an admittedly racist past. The predominantly white Southern Baptist Convention passed a resolution last June seeking forgiveness for past racism and pledging to “eradicate” racism from its ranks.

VanLandingham was stung by the storm of criticism and attention his church attracted. He told the Christian Index of Georgia he was gravely disappointed by the lack of support from fellow Baptists during a time when the church has been “maligned,” “misused” and “abused.” “Surely a church that is 140 years old and has been a stalwart church in the Georgia Baptist Convention–somebody could have cared and said we love you.' But they didn't do it," he said. The main issue, VanLandingham insisted, was the "deception" of the nursing home, which did not disclose that the baby was biracial before the funeral. Observers said the incident demonstrates that racism is still a part of Southern Baptist life. Bill Leonard, chairman of the religion and philosophy department at Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama, commented in a New York Times report that "racism in the Christian church and among Southern Baptists is a deep wound that can be opened at any time." Robert Parham, executive director of the Baptist Center for Ethics, told Associated Baptist Press that the antiracism resolution adopted at last June's SBC meeting merely established "that racism at the end of the 20th century is politically incorrect," and that the resolution "served a public-relations purpose more than the advancement of an ethics agenda." Added Parham: "Within the Southern Baptist context, overt racism is politically incorrect, but covert racism is still very much alive and well. The Barnetts Creek Church allowed its covert racism to become overt." In the most recent developments, the Barnetts Creek Church has refused to allow the parents of the dead child to be married in the church or to join the congregation. Jamie Wireman and Jeffrey Johnson, who are not married, had been living together for some two years when their newly born child died on March 18. According to Lila Wireman, Jamie Wireman's grandmother, she informed deacon Lewis of the couple's desire to marry and join Barnetts Creek. The Associated Press reported that she told Lewis that "they [the couple] wanted to join the church, get married and straighten out their lives." Lewis acknowledges talking to Jamie Wireman's grandmother about the possibility of the couple joining the church and admits discouraging the idea. "I said,Mrs. Wireman, I don’t think it’s. the. appropriate time for this because I don’t think there is any repentance in their heart.’”

Counting heads, dollars in mainline churches

Membership in a number of mainline Protestant denominations is continuing to slide, according to the National Council of Churches’ 1996 Yearbook of American & Canadian Churches. But contributions are rising–even in churches that are losing members. “Membership decline in the mainline denominations has been noted for several decades,” Kenneth B. Bedell, the Yearbook’s editor, wrote. “That decline continues.”

Study up on it; they are two separate and very different religions.

Maybe the best advice that could be offered here is…what does The Word of God, THE BIBLE say…THAT is what I believe…Jesus is my Lord and Saviour and He dwells within, AMEN !

If your heart quit right now, before you could even turn off this computer, where would you spend eternity ?

(continuation)

Preston, if you want to attack the Mormon church for its past, go ahead. But the funny thing is, any Christian sect over 60-70 years old can have the same arguments used against them. Some still are actively racist. The LDS church is not.

And Preston, anyone with half a brain will realize what you’re trying to pull with your second account. ANYONE who has met an active member of the LDS church will realize that maybe one out of a thousand people there would say something remotely like that, and it’s generally the guy who’s always getting into bad stuff, anyway. In my entire life, I’ve never heard anyone in my church like that, and I’ve attended meetings all over the country:in the South, the North, the Midwest. You might hear an occasional curse word when someone stubs their toe or something, at least from a kid.

Attacking someone or an organization for its past is wrong, especially when the majority of its current membership were not a part of that past. I’ve always been raised to see racism as a horrible thing. Now if I were raised as a White man in the 1840s, I might very well have different sentiments. I have also been taught tolerance, though it is still something I struggle with on the ideological level, especially with some of the members of my own church.

Never once have I not made a claim that there wasn’t racism in our church(though it really was not openly preached as everyone thinks it is). I haven’t tried to hide the fact that, ya, Joseph Smith had 33 wives sealed to him. Was he sexually active with all of them? No! Was he sexually active with any but his original wife? I don’t know. Records and statements in both the defense and attack of this are unreliable and inconclusive, as most primary documents are. I have attempted to provide you the truth as best as I can. Not your truth, perhaps not even God’s truth, but my truth, as it is the only truth that I know with a profound perfection. Just as the only truth you know with a profound perfectness is your, Preston. To claim to know God’s truth truly is a blasphemous statement, as we humans have distorted his word so much that it’s impossible to know. One might say that the translations of the Bible did this, but even those who were transcribing it onto the original scrolls would literally blot out parts, which are now lost to us. Do I think that the BOM is a perfect translation? I believe it is as correct as it can possibly be, but you loose things when trying to translate between languages, no matter what.

Blowing off facts…no, I think it’s something called diversion. I am simply more thoroughly exploring your accusations on a broader, non-Mormon picture, providing information that proves it wasn’t necessarily the condition of the Mormon church, but that of the world. Still is, in some other churches.

Unfortunately, Preston, I know that you are stuck up in your ways. I gave up long ago trying to present the facts from the other side of the road in an attempt to broaden your understanding. I am here because you, in your immaturity, seek to destroy an institution that after years of purifying weathering, has become ultimately good. Just as so many other religions have. You are such a sad, closed-minded individual that no matter if God himself told you to stop, you would not. And because you believe he no longer intervenes in the matters of men, it is doubtful you will ever receive the inspiration that you would need in order to do so. In fact, with such a spirit of hate, of contention, about you, it is hard to receive any sort of inspiration, divine or otherwise. I seek peace for myself and preach it to others because I have found myself so much more productive and successful while trying to build up others, and support their beliefs, rather than trying to break them down, and replace their beliefs, or twist them to my own perception of correct. Ultimately, whatever you and I say here is pointless. My church continues to grow at an astonishing rate. In my own little Tennessee town, our local membership grows by several people monthly, that’s taking into account those individuals who are replaced by these new individuals because they have fallen away or become inactive. In these last days, it is doubtful that our Lord would allow such an influential institution to continue growing and survive. Islamic radicalism has been scattered, many protestant sects are divided, and entire countries are reforming the government of a decade by decade basis. There are only a few organizations and nations that I know of who have remained united in the past few decades. I don’t think that’s a coincidence, or a fluke. I believe in neither.

Nice try, preston. Everyone, tridon is Preston. Take a look at his profile. It has the exact same birth date as Prestondakness, and the account was created less than a day ago, this post being Tridon’s only post, which was conveniently posted immediately after creation. Talk about deceit. Are we really that bad, Preston, that you would resort to such childish tricks?

Ya, Preston, I know he’s from Miami, FL. I think I’ll start posting on here with a guy called “Peacebewithus” from Palmyra, New York. It takes one look at the US Postal Services website to get a postal code.

All right, Preston. Why do you keep copying and pasting the EXACT same messages over and over? All you’re doing is proving my propaganda theory. You sound like those hick-trash billy bobs that you described in earlier posts, as those people have no education, and talk just as repetitively as you.

Joseph Smith Junior couldn’t have possibly come up with the Book of Mormon. He had less education than a modern-day second grader, here in the US. Assuming he actually had the time to come up with the idea of the book(which is doubtful, because he made his living as a farmer and physical laborer), he wouldn’t have been able to transcribe it. And the argument that someone else did would be inaccurate, because NO ONE has a good enough memory to memorize the Bible word for word and be able to recite it from memory. Same for writers, or people being transcribed. You have to write it down quickly, before everything is gone. If you ask a writer to write a scene two or three times over from just memory, or an interviewy to recall an event three different times in the three different days, you will find each account remotely similar, but presented in a much different fashion. There is just no logical way the Joseph Smith had the time and capacity to do that, and have fully written BOMs printed even prior to the church’s official existence. He didn’t have access to such resources as a scribe and printing presses until he was well into adult hood.

And Joseph Smith had nothing to do with the Bible? Have you never read any of his journals, or even the D&C? His family was a protestant like most others at the time. During that period, he was being compelled by so many pastors to join them, men “concerned with his eternal soul”. His father, who was open minded when coming to religion, told him to read the scriptures, and Joseph eventually was inspired to do one simple thing: pray. When he was told during the first vision that none of the churches were correct, he was, over his life, provided the resources to eventually found the LDS church. But throughout his life, he would continue to be an avid Bible reader, at least of the King James Version.

Also, his family joined the LDS church soon after. Now, his parents were not stupid people. In fact, they were the ones who raised him in such a fashion that allowed him to question, and to eventually become a workpiece for God. Now, this s just my perspective, but people who question even what they firmly believe in tend to be harder to sway. And from experience, it is much harder to get a point across to family, ESPECIALLY parents, because they have more “life experience” than you, and just because our families just don’t take us seriously in an attempt to not come out and flat out tell us we’re wrong.

Why not join a larger, faster growing religion? I say, join the religion that your conscience dictates. If that’s a local baptist church, fine by me. If it’s the Catholic church, great. If it’s a religion worshiping space aliens…well, you get my idea. Regardless, if someone from any sect find themselves under attack, I will step up and call for peace and tolerance, and I will learn what I can of that organization to better defend them.

Again, please do not intentionally try to undermine another’s happiness. It is a commodity that’s been so lacking in the past few decades, and by fighting, we only make it worse. Cooperation and unity are what this world need, not a bunch of people waiting to jump and say, “I told you so.”

The Baptist Religion is Chritianity, thus they gather in independant churches called the Baptist Church, 1st Baptist Church, etc. The Mormon’s believe in the teaching’s of Smith and having a new prophet and secon Bible. The Baptist’s preach directly from the Bible while the Mormons do not. They(Mormon’s) also believe in a multi layered Heaven, celestial Glory(polygomy in Heaven), etc. I was once a Mormon whom even cooked for their late Prophet Kimball but now I am saved and I am a proud Christian who read’s and believes in just 1 Bible.

Well, you being the one on the offensive, I would like to throw you a question. You seem to be so convinced that President Joseph Smith Junior was such a freaking racist. Yet, every time you do this, you go on to quote something that Brigham Young said or wrote. Now why is this? Is it because you can not find any damning evidence against the man? If he was such a racist, why was Elijah Abel allowed to be baptized during his ministry? And ordained to the priesthood a few years later? Eventually to become one of the Quorum of the Seventy? From my research, Brigham Young certainly did enforce his opinions on the church, and made it impossible for any more additions from the Black community during his ministry. And you attack us so much, yet most protestant churches at the time(White, anyway) were preaching White supremacy, and most often, English-descended, American-born White Supremacy. The church, pretty much from day one since its official organization, was preaching in other countries. And not preaching down, if you know what I mean.

Well, at least you admit it. You feel the need to “compel” others to follow your way of thinking, and through all means and methods available. That, my friend, is called fascism, no matter what way you cut it. And don’t go getting started on the missionaries going door to door: 9/10 times they get the door slammed in their face, and they never come back again, at least true to each companionship. They invite people to learn about this,and from what I’ve observed(as I have had the privilege of following a companionship around, I guess you could say, and sit in on these meetings) they are by no means pushy or aggressive in any way. Having observed three different companionships, I think this can be pretty conclusive, at least for myself. Unfortunately, I didn’t have a video recorder on me at the time, so obviously my “ramblings” are of no consequence, right?

Now, here is what I’ve been talking about hacking away at things I and others have said. Here’s one of your latest quotes of me:

I wouldn’t use the word damn, as we consider the Telestial Kingdom(the lowest of the three degrees of glory)

Now, that looks condescending right there, pretty damning, right? Well here’s the entire thing:

I wouldn’t use the word damn, as we consider the Telestial Kingdom(the lowest of the three degrees of glory) to be better than most person’s perception of heaven. Of course, I haven’t been there, so I wouldn’t know. As for the godhood thing, yes, and the reason is that one person can not be whole. Unfortunately, I will probably be one of those individuals, according to the Mormon faith, and that is because of my own personal choices, not because the church damns me, and not because I’ve been “brainwashed” into believing this. I took the hammer to my sword over two years ago, shattered it, and rebuilt it. That may be why my sunday school teachers hated me so much when I was in the youth classes, as I continue to question and prod, just for the heck of it. Fun little game for me.

What is sad is I had to dig this out from a private message between you and me. I truly am disappointed. I thought this was a fair, clean fight between two religious intellectuals. Obviously not.

I was not damning you in that remark. I was explaining(ableit too partially, I admit now) about our perceptions of the afterlife. You don’t have to be a member of the church to make it to a higher kingdom. Yes, you have to be married and sealed in a temple(unless life did not give you such a chance, such as really bad circumstances, I know a few people like that) to get into the Celestial Kingdom, but like I said, I even doubt I’ll be one of those individuals. Heck, for all I know, there is no heaven at all, and we were created by some alien race or something like that. But, that’s going in a whole different direction.

All right, does anyone remember World War One? And more specifically, the sinking of the Lusitania? So many lesserly educated individuals believe the grade-school crap that it was one of the reasons the US got involved in that war. IT WAS NOT. The Lusitania was sunk in 1915. US entered the war in 1917. 2 year gap. And during wartime, that’s decades. The fact is, those 100 umpteen passengers were warned to not board, as it eventually turned out that the Lusitania was smuggling ammunition for the allies. And in addition to the American lives lost, over 1,000 Europeans also died. Afterwards, Germany even apologized to the US and agreed to use more discretion when choosing its targets. Actually, it turned out, that we had invested so much into the allies due to their blockade on Germany(trade wise) that we had a lot to lose if they lost, as we traded with both sides during our neutral years.

Well, this is the same case. Trying to say that Mormons supported Hitler in the 1930s and 40s based on material printed nearly a century earlier is ludicrous. There were as many, if not more, American Mormons who were against him as were for him. Over in Germany, I have no idea. I don’t have much access to German primary documents. The church, as an organization, does not get involved politics, not when involving people. Perhaps certain pieces of legislation in the US(and contrary to common belief, the church didn’t spend a cent against the recent Californian legislation, just used influence), but when leaders are being chosen, they tell everyone to vote based on their conscience. I knew dozens of people in the same ward who were voting for Clinton, Obama, McCain, and even some independents. In regard to politics, we are completely neutral. I mean, if you really want to think about it, there’s no reason why the church as an organization should even like the US government, or want anything to do with it.

On my final note, Truth. What is the truth? Is the truth something undeniably absolute? Something so unbending, so hard, so painful, that it must put others down? Does God condone for any of us to be fighting like ten year olds who have so small a perspective on the world that they have nothing better to do?

I say, nay. The truth is what each individual holds it to be. If I see a car accident, my perspective on the event and the outcome may be completely different than that of the person across the street. But if we are asked, and both answered honestly, we told the truth. And yet, our stories, oh most heavily biased by our life opinions and experiences, will be significantly different. Truth and facts have no place in the same sentence, as their ideologies are just all too different. Doh!

I strive to build things up in this world. That’s what I enjoy most. Writing books and poems, designing aircraft, or just coming up with some random character or ship on a 3d drawing program. I am a fallen individual in many perspectives, and not just the debatable ones. I have truly made a number of mistakes which, while have never entroubled me with the laws of the land(and never will, due to their nature), have most definitely affected the person I am today, for better or worse. Some continue to haunt me, and some I continue to fight. So I aspire to contribute what I can to humanity, as we are quickly killing ourselves off. A quote from the song “Stand My Ground”, by Within Temptation(I do not own this):

“I just know there’s no escape now once it sets it’s eyes on you but I won’t run, have to stare it in the eye

Stand my ground, I won’t give in No more denying, I gotta face it Won’t close my eyes and hide the truth inside If I don’t make it, someone else will Stand My Ground”

Perhaps my fight is lost, but I can help to ensure others do not receive my same fate. Unfortunately, there are individuals opposite out there, who seeks to destroy. Perhaps even a year ago, I could empathize with them, as in a way, I do seek to destroy the world, as the strongest foundations are those freshly constructed on solid ground. The rock beneath our current foundations had turned to sand, and the structure of humanity is slowly sinking into the Earth. Rather than trying to find a way to fix this, we are all fighting each other, trying to make our claim in our own little interpretations of heaven. This is exactly what Satan wants:disunity. If all of the world’s religious folk were to live up to the teachings that they claim to follow for even a day, we would find there truly is nothing that humanity couldn’t accomplish in this enlightened state. We would be able to construct a new foundation, and for a few generations, all would be good. But, that is why so many see the end of the world in visions of darkness: because we are bringing it upon ourselves. If these are truly the last days, then Satan is doing a good job at stunting the progression of his brothers and sisters. There’s always been fighting, but in an idealogical sense, never in history this bad. (Take note I said ideological. Crusades and stuff don’t count. )

I had truly intended my last post to be my last in this matter, but after three more attacks over a period of a week, I found that my temper would kill me if I didn’t reply. Impatience is another of my weaknesses, if you can’t tell already. But, as they say, the one’s who admit it aren’t the ones you have to worry about.

I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (aka Mormon and LDS). I don’t know much about the Baptist religion, so I can’t comment on it, but I can tell you this, the two reilgions are very different and have different beliefs. The only thing that I can be sure that the two faiths have in common is that we both believe that Jesus Christ is our savior.

Mormons and Baptists couldn’t be any further apart. Mormons believe in a system of family values and laws created by Joseph Smith who claimed to have a revelation and created a new “bible”. Baptists belief that you must be baptisted to be saved. (this is a very short answer because of space - there is so much more). Baptists use the Bible as their standard of belief and the Mormons use the “book of Mormon”.

Let’s not tread on each other’s toes here. I think this might be getting a little out of hand. Everyone’s own beliefs are very important to them, which is why this is a very sensitive topic. If we practice a little respect and tolerance for each other, it will go a long way. The basic definition of a christian, regardless of their denomination, is to be a follower of christ. Mormons and Baptists alike are Christians in the fact that they believe Jesus is their saviour. The confusion I believe comes down to the difference in the nature of God. Baptists and Mormons believe in somewhat different manifestations of Him.

…TO TRIDON…

pls give it up…

.I don’t have anything to do with you…or know you…I appreciate your support.in this matter..

.but unless you have something FACTUAL to add…pls dont play games…

mormonism is a deceiving cult of lies that is organized, wealthy and all about business …

It has nothing to do with The bible ANY MORE THAN catholicsim or islam…has to do with the bible…THEY ARE BUT PERVERSIONS..OF THE TRUTH..

PLS DONT MAKE MOCKERY…OF THE TRUTH…

Thank you…—

Do you honestly think that people are THAT stupid?

And again, who is to judge the truth, save God?

You may see television ads that present Mormonism as just another “Christian denomination.” This faith is does not hold to the standard Christian beliefs.

The Mormon sect was officially founded in 1830 by Joseph Smith. Smith claimed that God told him to reinstate the “priesthood” and that he had the “keys to the church on earth.” Because of his strange teachings, Joseph Smith was murdered by an angry mob. His successor, Brigham Young, was responsible for moving the Mormon Church to Utah.

Listed below are several of Mormonism’s major teachings that are direct quotes from church leaders and official documents:

God is an exalted man: “God himself was one as we are now, and is an exalted man…I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form…like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man…He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 305).

Joseph Smith will be Heaven’s gatekeeper: “No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 289).

The dead can be saved: “We are the only people that know how to save our progenitors, how to save ourselves, and how to save our posterity in the celestial kingdom of God; that we are the people God has chosen by whom to establish his kingdom and introduce correct principles into the world; and that we are in fact the saviours of the world…” (John Taylor [Prophet], Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 163).

People living on the sun and moon: “Nearly all the great discoveries of men in the last half century have, in one way or another… contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a prophet. As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do, that they live generally to near the age of 1000 years. He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style” (O. B. Huntington, Young Women’s Journal, Vol. 3, p. 264, 1892). “Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?… So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it” (B. Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 271).

The Negro race is cursed: “Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness, he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with a black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fulness of the blessings of the Gospel” (Joseph Fielding Smith [Prophet], The Way To Perfection, p. 102).

“You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind” (Brigham Young [Prophet], Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 290).

God has a wife: “In the heaven where our spirits were born, there are many Gods, each of whom has his own wife or wives, which were given to him …while yet in his mortal state” (Orson Pratt [Apostle], The Seer, p. 37). “This doctrine that there is a Mother in Heaven was affirmed in all plainness by the First Presidency of the Church” (Bruce R. McConkie [Apostle], Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).

Baptist is as different as night & day to Mormonism, the Baptist do not go door to door trying to recruit members, nor do they believe in pologamy

Jason is really wrong about the Mormon religion. First off the correct title is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Saints. The bible is still the main book. The Book of Mormons is another testament of Jesus Christ. Plural marriage is no longer practiced in the Main body of the church. There are splinter group who may practice it. The do not worship Joseph Smith, he is a latter phophet like Noah or Moses. Do not judge any religion unlees you know the facts

Well, unfortunately, I can’t contradict you on that one about Smith. I do not have a copy of the book from which you quote(which isn’t Mormon Doctrine, by the way), so I could not honestly contradict it. Though the fact that you use a website made by anti-Mormons for your attacks is pretty sad. Even you aren’t getting the context yourself. I apologize for my remarks about you being deceitful, about the writings of the church, at least.

However, you still have proven to hack away at my remarks, and I still think you are acting foolish, though because you are taking what others have said without fully investigating both sides of the street. When I used to attack the church, I would do so after doing a bit of research on both perspective’s. You generally can find the middle-ground by taking two opposing force’s perceptions and studying them in depth. And it gives you a better look at their mentality, also. This is where I have concluded that most of the world’s surviving religions are good, because in my opinion, they are. And ironically, the people all have share similar mindsets in a few regards. Though other aspects, I admit, not so much.

So if you believe all religion to be fraud, why do you target just two sects within one broad category? Why not attack them all, rather than nitpicking with just two, and the two that, conveniently, come under attack the most, anyway? Are you afraid to break away from the mainstream? Are you incapable of coming to your own conclusions through honest work and study? Or are you even brave enough to stand on your own following the less popular paths, the only one watching your back being God?

My belief is the reason that so many people fear my religion, the Catholics, the Muslims, ect., is because they fear any organization that has power. And when they fear it, they have to find a reason to hate it, taking things way out of context to justify their actions. I mean, it’s completely understandable. Who wouldn’t fear an organization whose member base is in the tens of millions(Catholics or Mormons ring any bells?). It’s the same with nations. People fear the United States because of the power that we have accumulated over the centuries. And because of this fear, they must find a reason for something to be wrong with us, taking the smallest individual, or the smallest comments, and using them as an excuse to attack the nation and its people. I admit, every organization, whether be it a church, a nation, or even a family, has a bumpy road for the entirety of its existence. People make bad remarks, make little mistakes, and occasionally, they make big mistakes. But ultimately, those mistakes must be forgiven, or everyone in the large picture is unhappy. The person trying to live his life peacefully nearby whose only association is being the next door neighbor, the offender, the offended. No one in this world can easily find happiness anymore because of all the fighting. Even fights that have no association with us seem to somehow find their way into our lives.

I truly find it unfortunate, Preston, that you’re so closed minded as to think your way, your interpretation, is the only way. And in order to further this, you feel the need to pick away at the organizations which you feel have wronged you somehow, apparently simply by disagreeing with your beliefs. And in order to further your goals, rather than truly and with a clam mind studying the entire issue, you have come to some conclusion, and are finding little bits of evidence here and there, hacking them up, and sticking them on the billboard in big, bold letters, saying this is why the Mormons are evil. This is why Hivetyrant is evil. This is why the Catholics are evil. This is why the Bible as we know it is evil. By doing this, as I’ve said before, you are breaking some of Jesus’s and God’s greatest commandments, which have been with us since the earliest times of recorded history. I find it unfortunate that as spirit brothers we can not find a middle ground.

I would say I’m going to pray for you, but that would be arrogant of me. Highly. Like I should have a long time ago, I am going to close this browser, disable my alerts, and I am never going to look at this thread again. I have wasted too many hours coming up with responses out of my own sense of self-righteousness that I could have been using for others, or even for more practical purposes. I only hope that those who read this from now on will understand that those of the LDS faith are not out to get them, that we’re some evil cult whose members dance around fires and cut of chicken heads in the name of Satan. If a person truly hates us, and sets out against us, they are doing Satan’s work, as he is the father of contention. He wants us to be fighting, wants us to hate each other, wants us to remain separate. I don’t care about your religion, your ethnic origins, your perceived class in society, or anything else. The fact that you are human means that I will show you some degree of respect, and ask for peaceful interactions. I am no prophet, no preacher, or even a college graduate, but I do call for peace, and humility, and tolerance. Leave every man to make his own decisions, and don’t get up in his face about it trying to sway him if he makes one you disagree with. If he is unsatisfied with where he is, he will leave his current circumstances, and join up with another, or simply remain alone, independent, as is his right. It is not your place to step on his toes and to sabotage his happiness and peace for something so trivial, to you.

funguy, shangy is right about checking things out for yourself. amblessed, I am sorry to say that you don’t know what you are talking about when you talk about Mormons. They do indeed believe that Jesus is God’s ONLY BEGOTTEN SON! They do indeed he was born to Mary and God is His Father! They do differ from Baptists on some things but also have some common beliefs. My daughter is Mormon and I called her before I posted this to make sure that I what I thought was right.

Hi Funguy

I think the foremost distinction between the Church of Jesus Christ (Mormonism) and the Baptist Church is that the Baptist Church believes God is eternally distant – that He is an interdimensionally traveling wisp from a zone called Pleroma, which His existence BTW defines. The Church of Jesus Christ believes that God is near – that He exists within our time and space and has form. In their beliefs, Baptists rely on the philosophy of classic theisism while the Church of Jesus Christ relies on revelation from God. And that brings up another point, Baptists and other Protestants believe God “spoke”. The Church of Jesus Christ believes God speaks.

Both are Christian denominations who believe that Jesus Christ is God and in His atonement.

I hope this helps.

Rudy

Some more differences

Buptists believe one must be a member of one of the moving target (theologically speaking) of churches that make up Evangelicalism. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ (i.e., Mormons) believe, well, that it makes sense to be a member of Christ’s Church – and we leave the fatal theological contradictions that plague the Evan church to them! Despite 300,000 Biblical variants (and the 30,000 fundie congregations that result), Baptists like oldgeezer say that God’s clarifying words are not necessary. Apparently he and other Baptists are satisfied with a God of confusion. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ would never compromise like that – and we don’t believe God would either.

Baptists believe first in a whole slew of no accountablity, self appointed, self annointed leaders – folks like Ted Haggard, hank Hanegraaff, Harold Camping, Robert Tilton, and Paul Crouch. Members of the Church of Jesus christ believe in Jesus Christ – and we accpt that he does not change, that he speak though His servants the Prophets. Baptists beleive that god is deaf, having spoken for a short period a long tima ago.

Baptists limit our God to the ink and paper between the covers of a finite book. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ would not have the temerity suggest that is possible with our infinite God

The really ironic thing is that Baptists still routinely practice polygamy (mostly in Africa). Despite some limited practice historically in the Church of Jesus Christ , we haven’t allowed that for over 100 years, antywhere in the world.

I hope this helps

Rudy

That’s actually a funny question. I am a Baptist, and I can promise you that we are NOTHING like the mormons. As stated above..’Baptist’ is a denomination of Christianity. We derive EVERYTHING we believe from the Holy Bible. However, the Mormons like to believe they are a denomination, but if you study up on what they believe, you will see that they derive their beliefs from the book of Mormon..yeah..nothing like the Baptists.

The dictionary defines “Christian” as a follower of Christ. The name of the “mormon” church is actually the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. In the name of the church is the name Jesus Christ. “Mormons” believe that we are children of God. That we lived before we were born and that we will live again after we die. They believe that the only way that we can be saved is through the atonement and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. They believe in the teachings of the Bible and believe it to be the word of God. They believe that Jesus lived and performed many miracles. They believe in the teachings of the ancient prophets. They believe in the 10 commandments. They believe in the apostles of Jesus Christ. They believe that those prophets and apostles were able to receive revelation for the people they were teaching. They were able to know what God wanted for His children so that they would be happy and return to Him. They believe that Christ suffered our sins and was crucified on a cross and that He was raised from the dead. They believe that we should follow the teachings and of Christ because that is the way that we can return to the presence of God through the blood of Christ. They believe that we will be judged for actions good or ill and be blessed accordingly.

If you examine the above beliefs you will notice that there are things that many denominations have in common with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints and those are only a few of the commonalities.

“Mormons” also believe that God loves ALL his children and not just the ones that lived in Jerusalem or the birthplace of the Bible’s teachings. They believe that the people who lived in other parts of the world needed to hear the word of God just like those that lived and walked with Jesus. They needed to know how to be saved. They believe that these other peoples would have kept records like the Bible and the Book of Mormon is such a record. They believe The Book of Mormon to be the word of God and it works hand in hand with the Bible’s teachings.

“Mormons” believe that God loves us as much as He loved the peoples of ancient times and that he would not leave us with out direction. They believe that God talks to man just as he did in the time of Abraham, Isaac, Moses, John the Baptist, etc. They believe that now a days the temptations of Satan are even more perilous and difficult to overcome and that God would not leave His children with out guidance.

I have met many people with many different beliefs and that its difficult to see what others believe as valuable and good. I think that if a religion teaches you to love your neighbor, do good in all things, believe in God and Jesus Christ, and teaches you to endure and live strong to the end that it is worthy of a little respect and definitely the honor of beginning known as Christians. I know a lot of “Mormons” and they are some of the best people on the planet. I do not think you have to be a Baptist, Evangelist, Lutheran, Pentacostal, etc to be labeled a Christian. If you believe in Christ and His teachings you are a follower of Christ or a Christian.

I find it interesting that there is so much animosity due mostly to the fact of misunderstanding. To use the Joseph Smith = Gatekeeper example. If you lived in the time of Moses and lived a great life, but denied that Moses was a prophet of God and did not follow him, you will be accountable for that. It is not like God will clear away every sin even when it was blatant. That is ludacris. It would be like the parents of a child who can never accept the fact that THEIR child would do anything wrong and so they always protect him and defend his obviously intentional deeds. So in today’s time, if there was a prophet of God, and you had the chance to learn about him and sincerely pray about him, and then (obviously you would receive an answer if he were true) rejected him, God can’t do much else for you because he gave you an answer and you deliberately disobeyed it. So everyone who accepts the so called true gospel in this time, if it came from Joseph Smith and is in the Mormon church, will also need to accept the fact that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.

When Baptists refer to being “born again” they are usually speaking of a person being baptized and accepting Jesus Christ as the Son of God and their Saviour and professing their belief in the one true Father God. This phrase is not literal and is only meant to acknowledge the beginning of a new life in Christ and abandoning one’s old ways for a life devoted to the Lord. In theory, all Christians are born again after accepting Christ but not all Christians use this exact phrase to describe the event of a person devoting their life to God.

Baptists and Mormons are very different, and though some similarities exist Baptist beliefs emerged only from biblical scripture whereas Mormons propagate the beliefs of Joseph Smith, a man who was thought to have fabricated the denomination for personal wealth and women. The Mormons also follow a book that is a grossly mistranslated version of the Bible that was adapted in 1830.

Oh, and I would like to address “rudy”- not all Baptist are evangelists. I am the daughter of a Baptist minister and would like to tell you that my father cannot stand Ted Haggard or any other self-proclaimed minister that defiles the name of God for secular possessions or any other benefit one may receive for falsifying or corrupting the divine scripture. Also, I would like to know where you obtained your information that Baptists practice polygamy because I was under the impression that that sin was reserved only for Mormons. Baptists do not find God to be some finite and deaf-eared man sitting on a throne indulging in our pain, but as a compassionate and just God that we have a personal relationship with through prayer and studying the scripture. Do not dare to confuse Baptists with some evangelical schlub preaching under the pretenses of a Christian while he goes around telling people “send me a dollar and I’ll send you a miracle.” True Baptist beliefs are seeded only in scripture, not in the words of some false prophet that glorified Mormanism for personal profit.

Baptist religion is a part of traditional Orthodox biblical Christianity, it is Protestant, evangelical, and different yet similar to the Orthodox, the Anglican/Episcopalian, and Roman Catholic traditions. All of those are mostly traditional and Orthodox Christian traditions-and they all claim to be based on the Bible. The Mormons are a cult that say they are Christian, and they refer to the Bible-but their teachings are in conflict with biblical true Christianity. Mormons and Baptists are similar in conservative values, but very different in real beliefs about the nature of God, Jesus, humanity, the Holy Spirit, God the Father, the devil, sin, and atonement for sin. The Bible is the basis for the Baptist religion. The Bible and “other testaments” are the basis, supposedly, if the the Bible at all, for Mormonism. The religions are not the same at all, once you find what they each really believe. Try looking up a Baptist church statement of faith for your local Baptist church, and start from that.

-yes, we do believe in a literal hell. that is exactly what those scriptures you (justsearching) are describing. interestingly enough, it is reserved for very few people, however.

-your definition of a “cult” is quite broad. according to it, every religion is a cult. I don’t understand why you think we are “extreme”. what, because we read the scriptures? we dress modestly? we discourage tattoos? I thought tattoos and half-naked bodies were regarded as being extreme. when did that change?

-Christianity did not begin with Christ’s birth. Christ is eternal, so is Christianity.

-I am well aware that mormons who are temple worthy are guided into deeper insight of the church than those that are not. but I know what I believe. there are no dark secrets. it’s a hard subject to talk about…but I can assure you that nothing cultish, deep, dark or strange goes on it the temple. it is a place of beauty and insight.

-as for your interpretation of 1 Nephi 28:22—there is no 28th chapter in 1 nephi. 1 nephi only goes up to 22 chapters so I don’t know where you were looking. do you have the correct reference? find it and I would love to help you understand what you’re reading.

Great. I’m glad you don’t trust me on these matters. I’m just trying to open your eyes. I DO NOT worship joseph smith. he is not my savior and those who say he is are ignorant of LDS beliefs. And honestly, we’re all human, all of our eternal souls are in danger. Being a mormon, I know what I have to do. I know the plan of salvation, I understand it. I just wish you wouldn’t throw around things that you have heard about my faith. it’s not fair to me or to you. I dont do that to any member of any religion, and I would like the same courtesy. I’m not forcing you to believe what I do, but don’t pass on “facts” about the Mormons. you don’t know.

ok. I think it’s great that so many people are interested in my faith—the mormon faith, but if you have questions about it, don’t ask someone you don’t even know. if you want actual answers to your questions, go to the church’s official website.

www.lds.org

there you will find out what our beliefs are. yes, we believe in God the Father, and His son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. we believe that they are not one “thing” or entity” and that they are one in purpose.

we do NOT worship joseph smith, or any other prophet for that matter. j.s. is NOT our savior, we know Jesus Christ to be.

we are NOT a cult. I don’t even know why you would think that, but message me if you want more details.

please do not believe what random people tell on this subject. shoot—don’t believe me! go to the church’s website and find out for yourself. please stop shooting rumors around the internet.

Jesus came to seek and to save those that were lost… he came to develop a relationship between himself.. and his creation… He is spirit and he is love… we love him when we follow his commandments… they are in his word… He said, you must be born again… he was the sacrifice… we are to trust in him.. and what he did for us… to aline our lives with his word… his way.. and his spirit… we are to forsake all to follow him…that means houses, land, postitions, titles, families, etc…he wants to be first in everything… that is not religion… that is relationship… if we do that.. he will bring the rest together… he wants to be Lord, of our lives… he wants our thoughts to be pure… and our actions to be sincere…we are to owe allegiance to no man… only him.. he is the mediator between us and God…the man Christ Jesus… a flaming fire… Alpha and Omega… the begining and the end… there is no salvation apart from him…

Yes, the two are very different. I lived in Utah for 9 years. Before becoming a born again christian I was searching for the truth. I had the Mormon missionaries come to my house for right at 3 months. They never could answer some of the simplest questions, ie… where are the plates that Joseph Smith supposedly translated the book of Mormon from, and if according to the way that He translated the plates with the special specticles, (he claimed he looked into a hat with these specticles and a character would appear, he claimed that the character would not vanish and another would not come up until they had written down the correct character). If this is so why has the book of Mormon over 4000 literal changes to the text. If this is true and it is documented isn’t that saying God is illiterit. Can’t an all knowing God translate it correctly the first time. I was told by the missionaries that Joseph Smith was the one the Mormons were looking for to resurect them. If that is the case Why would Jesus neet to die. According to first John 1:7 “if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with the other and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin. If Jesus’ blood cleanseth us from all sin why do we need Joseph Smih to resurect us. The Bible says that Jesus Christ is the resuection.

That’s interesting you say that because I have spoken with many LDS missionaries and they all say that there is no literal hell or place of punishment but there are 3 kindgoms. And none of these are a place of punishment. They even teach you can earn you way to the higher kingdom.

Mormons also teach you can become a god. Brigham Young said “as Adam is God once was, and as God is Adam can be. This was taught for 50 years in the mormon church but I believe it was in the 1890 the mormon prophet said this is false. Does this make one of the pillars (Brigham Young) a false prophet. According to Deut. 18 it does.

Would you care to explain Black people and the mormon church? I know they wouldn’t allow Blacks to enter the priesthood so in 1977 the NAACP brought a lawsuit against the mormon church and poof the prophet of the mormon church had a revelation and said God told him that Blacks could now enter the priesthood.

You see the God of the Bible dosen’t change, He dosen’t cower down to governments, but the god of the mormon church apparently does. I am praying for you silly girl that the true God LORD JEHOVAH will open your eyes to the truth.

One last question, when Jesus said He has done nothing in secret, but everything openly, why does the mormon church not allow anyone except special mormons into the temple. What I mean by special is those who have the temple recomend from their bishop. Only those who wear the holy garments (underware), practice the monthly fast and have good standing with the church are allowed to enter the temple. According to Jesus Christ all those who are followers of Him are priest before God.

I have talked to stake presidents and missionaries about this. And none of them can answer this question. The Bible say in First Peter 3:15 “But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear”

This verse says you need to be able to explain why you believe what you believe. Maybe you never saw what I showed you today from Doctrine and Covenants. Maybe you don’t know just what the Mormon church truly believes.

What I ask you is a very serious question. Most professing Mormons probably don’t even know that this exist. I don’t think you even know half of what the Mormon church believes. I don’t mean this to put you down in any way either, what I mean is only certain Mormons those who are temple mormons really know what deep dark secrets the Mormon church teaches. The definition of a cult is a 1. Community or system of religious worship and ritual. a. Followers of such a religion or sect generally regarded as bogus or extremist. Followers of such a religion or sect. obsessive devotion to a person, rinciple of idea. the object of subject devotion.

The christian church which has been around since the book of acts. They were first called christians in antioch. The Mormon church started when Joseph supposedly found the plates in 1820. The Christian church has always considered the Mormon church a cult.

The Mormon Church Believes:

1. There is no literal hell. Read luke 16:19-31, Read Jacob 6:10 in the book of Mormon It tells there is a literal lake of fire and torment forever and ever. Read I Nephi 9:16 it says the same thing. Read Alma 5:56 says unless you repent you will be hewn down and cast into the fire.

It also says this about those who claim there is no hell. I Nephi 28:22 says “And behold, others ge flatereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

The Bible says the arm of flesh will fail you. I don’t take anyones word I study the word myself to know if its truth or not. I challenge you because your eternal soul could be in danger. I haven’t said any of this because I want to slam the Mormon church either. I have many friends who are steeped in Mormonism. It is my desire that they find the truth in the word of God not the works of Joseph Smith.

Mormans: By definition the Mormon church teaches that the gospel is the Mormon church system and its doctrine.{20} The church and its doctrine becomes the good news–their gospel.

For the Christian it’s not an organization but a Person who represents the gospel, and that Person is God’s only begotten son, Jesus Christ. It is the life, death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ that embodies the gospel for the true Christian. Jesus is man’s savior. The Bible tells us that JESUS is the only way to God the Father.{21}

By contrast, Brigham Young says: “No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial Kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph. . . .” “He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling as God does in heaven.”{22} So for the Mormon, Joseph Smith has become the savior.

Volume One of Doctrines of Salvation says this about Joseph Smith: “No salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth…then this knowledge is of the most vital importance to the entire world. No man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.”{23}

Joseph Smith is Savior

Baptist is a Christian denomination. Mormonism, since the original ones had a Christian background, has a few same underlying beliefs, like heaven and hell, God as a supernatural being,the Holy Trinity, and a belief in Jesus. But Mormons mostly follow the Book of Mormon, a book written by Joseph Smith in the 1800’s. Apparently he had some kind of revelation about an angel appearing to him and telling him certain things. If you look him up he sounds like a complete nut job. But hey, it’s religion, right?

I don’t know much at all about Mormons, but I do know that along with the bible the also have the Book of Mormon. Mormons believe much of what Baptist believe but it doesn’t totally go the other way around too.

I think Mormons would have more in common with Catholics. I don’t know if Mormon say Hail Marys, but the way they seem to have their own book a long with the bible is very similar to Catholics with their catechism. The book of Mormon is probably deeper with it’s personal book since it’s supposed to be like a “New New Testament” in supposedly telling you about the life of Jesus later on much later than the time period of the gospels.

Mormans beleive Jesus Christ was a created being not as Baptist beleive that Jesus is:

1. the Son of God incarnate
2. God Himself who came to earth in the human form of Jesus (God the Father/God the Son/God the Holy Ghost) …once you are saved (receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior, asking for forgiveness of your sin) the Holy Spirit resides in you …man is born in sin, God cannot even look upon sin…had he not sent Jesus to pay the price (sacrifice) for us, we would have zero chance to go to Heaven…only those who are saved will see Heaven…good person/good deeds will not get you there (ex: the thief on the cross who never did anything good, but what did he do when he was on his cross ? …when Jesus said ‘it is finished’ the sacrifice for mankinds sins was paid…the only sacrifice in scripture He asks of us ,after receiving Him in our heart is… PRAISE…see it’s not about you…it’s about HIM

Everyone must decide for themselves: to either accept or reject Jesus (John 3:16)

To compare Morman/Baptist is too lengthy a task for here just hope I shed some light…God Bless You !!

There are many differences between the Baptists and the Mormons. One of the biggest difference is that Baptists believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that salvation is only through Him. All who believe on Jesus will be saved. Mormons believe that only members of the Mormon faith, in good standing, will be saved. Baptists belive the Bible to be the word of God. Mormons believe the Bible is not reliable and they take the word of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, and Brigham Young as a higher authority than the Bible.

The Bible clearly warns against doing that.

Mormons claim that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, however when his life and actions, recorded in history, are compared to the life and actions of Jesus, as recorded in the Bible, one notices a great difference.

I believe one is safer to follow Jesus Christ rather than Joseph Smith.

No they are not the same.

If you Really want to know what each is all about visit these links:

Mormon Belief: http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/mormon1.html

Baptist Belief: http://www.baptism.org.uk/baptist.htm

I, on the other hand, am more partial to and highly recommend this site: Truth or Tradition http://truthortradition.com/

Hope this helps you :)

I don’t know much at all about Mormons, but I do know that along with the bible the also have the Book of Mormon. Mormons believe much of what Baptist believe but it doesn’t totally go the other way around too.

I think Mormons would have more in common with Catholics. I don’t know if Mormon say Hail Marys, but the way they seem to have their own book a long with the bible is very similar to Catholics with their catechism. The book of Mormon is probably deeper with it’s personal book since it’s supposed to be like a “New New Testament” in supposedly telling you about the life of Jesus later on much later than the time period of the gospels.