Is Israel a Zionist or a Jewish State?

Judaism and Israel are 2 different things.

Israel is Zionist not Jewish.

I am Anti-Zionist but I love Judaism, maybe I am Anti-Zionist ‘CAUSE I love Judaism.

Well my thoughts are that Israel is not as ‘secular’ as it is made out to be, but it’s one of those ‘my word against his’ kind of topics. It would be hard to prove without quotes from the current members of the Israeli parliament (although former-president Ariel Sharon did make strong implications that the Israeli government was zionist many years ago).

Well in some countries (eg. Austria), The Holocaust actually isn’t even debatable, lol. In some countries it is wrong to voice your opinion on the matter, in that if you say it never happened, you say not as many died as the ‘official’ figure stated or you relativise it, then you can be imprisoned if I recall :o. So this censorship and lack of freedom of speech could result in many not hearing of other possibilities and hence that could explain why so many believe six million Jewish people died. I disagree with this kind of enforceable hush-hush (everyone’s opinion counts).

In ways, you cannot simply blame the Jewish for taking the homes of the Palestinians in ‘all’ cases. The Jewish and the Palestinians were both deceived by the British in terms of land ownership and that led to Jewish people pushing Palestinian people out of their homes. Of course it was wrong, but there was confusion for both sides. Sadly, I doubt either side will make and keep a peace treaty and the conflict between these two countries will most likely continue for some time.

As for Israel’s treatment of homosexual people… I think that is actually on the improve and has been for some time now. Discrimination against gay and lesbian Israeli’s in the workplace has been less common for one thing. Really I think Israel is no different to other countries in this regard. You will always have some people who vilify/ discriminate against gay people, but just because one does, that doesn’t mean everybody does. I think Israel’s treatment of homosexuals reflects equality much more than it used to, which is most certainly a positive thing :).

Actually what toothpick has pointed out is correct. The Palestinians did suffer a great injustice in all of this. Men, women and children lost their homes because some people came and said the land was their’s anyway (and the British promised it to them too if I recall). To refer to that injustice is not to be anti-semitic… That term is used (in that context) to mask the fact that it was an obvious injustice. I think a lot more could have been done in terms of facilitating the Jewish people. I think Britain’s deception (by this I mean, they made conflicting promises to both sides) of the Palestinians needs to be recognised more.

People quickly jump to the conclusion that Muslim extremists are all lunatics and fanatics, but if you look at what Palestine has endured at the hands of Israel, then it is hard to blame them. I am not anti-semitic at all, but when I watch the news and hear about the military actions of Israel, I feel quite disgusted. I really think the United States needs to talk to them a little more seriously.

Zionism is a Jewish racist and supremacist ideology and it is taught in Israeli schools if I recall. I have read over elements of this ideology and I find it remarkably offensive (particularly to people of Arabic descent). The United Nations took a strong stance against the ideology and understandably so. As for comparing Jewish people to Nazis, Ariel Sharon himself said that he was a Jewish nazi at one point (I read that a little while back) when he was referring to the Sabra and Shatila Massacre (something the Israeli Defence Force actually facilitated and initiated which was a terrible violation of human rights).

I have Jewish friends and so I’m obviously not being racist with this, but I think we do have to be realistic with this matter. Zionism is a supremacist ideology and hence it is morally wrong. Saying that zionism is wrong, is not to be anti-semitic because there are obviously some flaws in it (I read a quote suggesting that the life of an Arabic person wasn’t worth a Jewish fingernail). I think zionism really gives Israel a bad name because they’re people, just like all of us and yet zionism shows implications that they are supposedly ‘better than us’. That of course, is not true at all :)!

My words are tuned with Iran’s zealous president, may be because he wants some justifications and answers which are censored for garnering sympathy and support. I dislike Ahmedinijad as might any one of you.

I am neither speaking for Moslems or against the jews. We are moving out of the subject. Domestic violence is not only existing in Islam or any religion but every society is victim to this vice. According to statistics, US has the highest number of domestic violence incidents, so does that make Americans bad? The highest numbers of capital punishments are carried out in USA, but no one calls for human rights. Something happens in the Middle East, all the humanrights rush here.

Anyway all these issues we are discussing against Islam or Judaism or Christianity is futile. My question is the legitimacy of Israel in Middle East.

Toadaly says “The modern state of Israel is neither Jewish nor Zionist. It’s a modern secular republic with freedom of religion and seperation of church and state similar to other modern secular republics.”

The sole reason for creation was to make it a jewish state as “JEHOVAH” had promised the jews holy land not a secular state. The present day existance of Israel is destruction of a race (genocide of palestinians tactically) and occupy the so called Holy Land for a hideous agenda.

As said earlier I reiterate “Israel has nothing to do with Judaism and has been implicitly established to keep the western/european presence in the Middle East with a lethal idealogy, to keep watch on the arab activities and contain them.”

As long as Israel pursues an evil zionist policy, peace will never come to Palestine or in the Middle East.

Many questions remain still unanswered, as we plunged into a jib jab debate swerving out of the subject.

Holocaust is still debateable, not answerable as research is not open. My thoughts with utopia for loss of your beloveds in a genocide but cant we research in open? Homosexuality is fine in a secular Israel but orthodox are unclear? Palestinian violence is officially termed as extremism while Israeli use of heavy weapons on rampage are self defense? Under AAliyah so many people migrated to Israel from different parts of the world, where do they live? In homes and lands where once palestinians were living for hundreds of years.

Regradless of your belief in God, justice will prevail and truth will win.

Friends especially utopia, I am not anti-semitic. Just aline to clarify my stand once again. Also, for further understanding as Utopia, why did all the jews were relocated to Palestine?

We live in a fast-moving age 21 Century, we cannot use some pretext dated 1000s and 1000s of years ago that God promised us so and so land so we are entitled to this share. This is clearly unjustifiable. The reasoning is so irrational and whats more astonishing to me is that this idea has backing of some really industrially progressive countries like UK, USA, France, etc.

Now according to utopia, jews moved to palestine from 13 to 19 Century, surely they didnt have any housing or land waiting for them. The lands of palestinians were occupied and the new arrivals kicked the originals of their land, job and dignity. This regularly happened until Palestine was manifested into Israel. Right or still there: am I anti-semitic? Everybody knows UN stance on Zionism, an imperial and rascist idealogy with deep similarities to the Nazis although with different agenda.

Anti-semitism originated in Europe, why should the palestinians suffer for it?

I love Jews as much as I love a moslem or christian. It all started with a GK question, now has turned into a debate. No debating just answers, please. Also, my question on homosexuality in Judaism is still unanswered?

Well actually you have missed the point of what I have posted. Many people do use the holocaust to justify the actions of Israel now (perceiving them as being victims), which of course is wrong to do. Plus you seem to be looking at the ‘justification’ completely incorrectly. I have not said either side is right to do anything (none of the actions are justified), but you may take it that way if you wish ;). I have simply stated that the Jewish people have suffered, but that doesn’t give them the right to make others suffer, just as the Palestinians have no right to rebel in such a way.

As for the six million, there are many historians who have their doubts about that and seeing as I don’t like to take sides with the matter, I chose to use a more correct term. Those reports as they stand appear to be incorrect to me though. There is no ‘evidence’ to support the theory of the six million dead. Look at the memorial plaque at Auschwitz stated that 4 million people lost theirt lives there. Later (and silently) that number was revised and reduced to 1.5 million people (not all of those people were Jewish). That fact alters that figure of six million tremendously and hence that suggests you are incorrect. The death-count at Belsen was also revised from 300, 000 to 30, 000. I think historians are better at revising history than you or me, so look at those facts, lol.

I think we are wandering away from the question itself, so let us move back. The asker has not actually asked whether or not six million people died or not and I can’t say I really know exactly how many died (I guess no one does). Either way, yes the Jewish suffered and the actions taken against them were inexcusable, but Israel is now a dominant power in the world and they are now commiting attrocities.

As for Israel being a modern and tolerant secular state, that is something open to debate really. Some people argue that they use that as a facade and that the government is actually zionist, but I’m not sure how true that argument is really, lol.

Actually the Palestinians are fighting for what is technically already their’s (or at least it was their’s). They are not all extremists… They are people who feel an injustice has been done to them and that the world is ignoring them. That is why they seem to act so violently. It is not because all of them are bad people, it is because many of them have been robbed of their rights and are being ignored.

Israeli forces killed many innocent Palestinian children, so it seems hiding behind children didn’t have much of an impact. Some Israeli military acts of late have been inexcusable and yet people stereotype the Arabic people and hence find it easier to look at them as being the ‘bad guys’. It is obviously wrong for them to rebel in such a way (the Palestinians I mean), but when nothing else works or is even considered by foreign governments, how many choices do they have? Israel has the right to defend itself, not to attack other countries and that is something that is ignored so often :(.

Muslims are actually not taught to beat their wives… That is a stereotype and all of the Muslim men I know (as well as their families) would never consider such vile acts. Some aspects of the Muslim religion do imply a male dominance, but violence against women is not a teaching. That is anti-Muslim propaganda which has spread far and wide. Simply because countries have issues with Muslims, does not mean the media should make Muslims seem like violent animals. We seem to hear all of the bad things and never the good (until you actually do some research). It’s really sad how the rights of Muslims have been violated.

Of course I am disgusted by the idea of suicide-bombings in civilian towns, but years ago, Jewish people were known to do the same. One Jewish man ‘shot dead’ 30 people who gathered at a Mosque in Hebron. He actually shot them, individually and watched them die. That is mass-murder and I consider that to be far worse than a suicide attack. The killer intent involved would be so much greater and was hardly going to be faith-related. I am not defending the acts of Muslims by any means, but I am stating this because the Jewish people are not the victims here… Both sides are. Both sides are capable of good and bad things and it just seems that the media tells us more about the wrongs that the Palestinians (or Arabic people in general) do.

This is one of those debates that is always highly opinionated and unfortunately not a lot of people know much more than the media actually tells them. To deny the holocaust ever happened is wrong, seeing as there is so much evidence for its happening. Perhaps the number of dead was not quite as high as has been suggested, but nevertheless, hundreds of thousands of innocent people (Jewish people) were killed. We just need to make sure that our sympathy for those who suffered in the past is not preventing us from seeing the wrongs which are happening in the present :).

tseirpeht, you are speaking like an extremist. My question here is to denounce injustice which is done in a horrible way to the palestinians by a hawkish zionist state.

I am still carrying out an intense study on Israel and its history. Israel enroached every inch on occupying the Palestinian land, continues doing so. What would you do if someone drove you out your house, robbed your land and livestock??? Why is that every US president has to show solidarity with Israel? Why cant the palestinians get justice or support? I have seen videos of how children in Israeli schools are taught to abuse and disgust moslems especially palestinians.

All I know is that the present day Israel has nothing to do with Judaism and has been implicitly established to keep the western/european presence in the Middle East with a lethal idealogy, to keep watch on the arab activities and contain them.

What I have given above is a strong factfinding which will never showup majorly because of the biased and partial media. One day like every imperial race, zionism will also collapse.

Raise hands for Humanity and Justice and also a weapon free world :)

“hundreds of thousands of innocent people (Jewish people) were killed.”

typical…lower the number…revise history…according to census reports before and after WWII - almost 6 million jews less in europe. Almost the entire jewish population of Poland dead. That does not even mention the millions of others killed.

I am NOT one to believe that Israel is the poor little country… If you look at my previous answers, I stated that Israel who was once David is now Goliath. Both sides are wrong…Both sides are right. I do not support the blind eye that the U.S. or any other nation turns toward Israel and it’s treatment of the Palestinians.

But I will NOT erase nor revise the horror and history of the holocaust to justify condemning Israel as it stands. I believe they are two separate issues.

The jewish history of the holocaust deserves the same respect that the treatment of the Palestinians deserves.

I will not revise the number of palestinians killed to justify Israel. Just as I will not revise the number of jews killed in the holocaust to justify the Palestinians.

Too bad you don’t share the same respect for both.

The modern state of Israel is neither Jewish nor Zionist. It’s a modern secular republic with freedom of religion and seperation of church and state similar to other modern secular republics.

“Zionism, an idealogy started by a group of fanatics that had no relation to Judaism. “

That is not true…the modern Zionist movement was founded by secular Jews. Zionism is a Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel. While I do not support Zionism, to state that it is MORE inhumane than the Nazi movement is wrong and sets the tone of your post.

“The present people, majority of them in Israel are blond with blue eyez, sharp facial features.Nomads generally lack such attributes. I know some real jews in Yemen and when I saw them I could make out those people have had ancient tradition and pedigree. Looking at present day Israel and its citizens I dont see that Jewish appearance, they clearly resemble Roman race.”

Judaism is a religion. Jews come in all skin tones, hair type and eye color, just like Muslims, Christians, etc. The Israelites of old were regarded by the Egyptians as people from the land of Amuru, meaning the land of the Amorites which the Israelites conquered. Another term applied to the general Syrian area was “Retenu”. The name “Upper Retenu” corresponded to the geographical space encompassed by the Land of Israel, according to the Bible. People from the area known as “Amuru” or “Retenu” after ca.1400 BCE are presumably Israelites. They are depicted on Egyptian monuments as red, blonde, or black-haired with frequent blue eyes and red beards. Illustrations of individuals with this appearance are automatically assumed by Egyptologists to pertain to the Israelite or “Syrian” area. Another blonde blue-eyed people depicted on Egyptian monuments were the so-called “Libyans” and it has now been shown by Alessandra Nibbi (1989) that these were not dwellers of “Libya” but rather of the Nile Delta and of Hebrew origin. On the Egyptian drawings skins of individuals from the Israelite or “Syrian” area are often light colored and pinkish.

“Why only after the holocaust they decided to move to Palestine?”

That is not true…it has always been part of Jewish prayers to return to the Land of Israel. “Next year in Jerusalem” Throughout the Amoraic period, many Babylonian Jews immigrated to Israel and left their mark on Israeli life, as rabbis and leaders. In the 10th century, leaders of the Karaite Jewish community, mostly living under Persian rule, urged their followers to settle in Eretz Yisrael. The Karaites established their own quarter in Jerusalem. The number of Jews returning to the Land of Israel rose significantly between the 13th and 19th centuries. Between 1882 and 1903, approximately 35,000 Jews immigrated to Palestine. Between 1904 and 1914, 40,000 Jews immigrated mainly from Russia to Palestine following pogroms and outbreaks of anti-semitism in that country. Between 1919 and 1923, 40,000 Jews, mainly from the Russian Empire arrived in the wake of World War I, the British conquest of Palestine; the establishment of the Mandate, and the Balfour Declaration.

“If at all the holocaust occured, why is there prohibition on carrying out research on it in Europe and some parts of the Western world?”

Where is it prohibited to research the holocaust? And why do you deny that it happened?

“To me Humanity is the best religion and love to humanity is best faith.”

When I first started to read your question, I thought that you were just misguided on some of your points. As I continued to read, I started to notice the anti-Semitic tone. When I arrived to the part about “If at all the holocaust occured”, I understood where you were coming from. And yes, your question DOES have political and religious backing. You are anti-Semitic. Perhaps you don’t realize it, but I bet you do.

I do not agree with Israel being a Zionist state. I do not agree with the treatment of the Palestinians. I believe that Israel has changed from David into Goliath. I believe that the land should be shared.

But I also do not like the “tone” of your post.

And I am Jewish. Red hair, pale skin, dark brown eyes. Too bad, you can’t actually lump all the jews into one group of physical characteristics. Maybe you could do a little research, or just open your mind and eyes to see that jews are not physically as the Nazis described them : the body is usually stocky, sometimes thin; the posture is crooked or bent; the feet are flat; the hair is dark; there is a lot of coarse body hair. The face usually has dark, bulging eyes; a crooked or bent nose; hanging eyelids; a hanging underlip; a heavy beard.

When weapons are being moved into Israel for the muslim extremist then they have the right to defend themselves. The muslim religion is the one that is calling for the extermination of Israel, so you cant compare Israel to the nazis. Please stop baiting to spew anti semetic propaganda.

The o.p. stated that it is PROHIBITED to research the holocaust… It is prohibited to deny the holocaust and to revise history. Do I agree with these laws, no. Do I see why they were enacted, yes.

His statement proves that point.

toothpick - regarding you question about homosexuality in Israel. Israel contains more than jews…76.1% Jewish, 16.2% Muslim, 2.1% Christian, and 1.6% Druze, with the remaining 4.0% not classified by religion.

Of the three main categories of judiasm, only orthodox prohibits homosexuality, much like conservative christians.

Certainly you understand that a country comprised of many faiths and beliefs would not follow the ancient torah opinion of homosexuality.

You seem to be under the impression that Israel is ONLY governed by the torah and the talmud. That is just not the case.

tseirpeht…lord…shut up… “No one ever sides with Israel’s right to defend itself.”

You do understand how ridiculous of a statement that is, right? The U.S. ALWAYS sides with Israel.

and to toothpick…to deny the existence of the holocaust is going to raise some hackles, especially with those of us who lost their families in the camps.

My disagreement with your statements and assertion that you are anti-semitic is that your statements mimic those given in several interviews by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Iran’s president.

Who is the extremist here, you are siding with the people who are calling for the destruction of Israel. What about the Muslims who hide behind children? So the Muslim’s are the good guys? You are talking about the ones whose prophet was a pedophile. Taught to beat their wives, kill anyone who does not believe in Islam. Their faith is calling for any non Muslims to be killed. No one ever sides with Israel’s right to defend itself.

Just an example… I am jewish. My husband was an md/phd. An educated catholic man, older than me. His father was a member of the nazi party. He was german. While living in the U.S., we watched some made-for-tv movie about the holocaust. He could not believe that I had married him. He was shocked. He “knew” about the holocaust, but didn’t “KNOW” about the holocaust. We moved to germany. my son attended public school during the 80s. he was not taught about the holocaust ever in school. every time it was time to learn about wwII in history, the school year ended. lol.

I stated that I do not agree with these laws…but I do see why they were enacted.

I’m in no position to speak for toothpick… and we can argue the semantics of the word research… this was my best guess as to toothpicks intention and only for clarification purposes.

I feel it necessary that there is no confusion in the acknowledgment of these thought crimes.

Like I said… the truth is its own endorsement… it is barbaric to penalize those that question. Actions should be punishable… not thought… and I am including incitement in the action category… again to question is prohibited.

I also find it counterproductive. When history is being taught at the business end of the state’s gun… then the populace will naturally inquire why it is the case.

‘Where is it prohibited to research the holocaust? And why do you deny that it happened?”

The questioner may be referring to the laws in Austria… Belgium… Czech Republic… France… Germany… Liechtenstein… Lithuania… Luxembourg… Poland… Portugal… Romania… Spain… and Switzerland… whereby questioning the Nazi holocaust is a crime.

I find these laws to be horrifying. The shepherd of information should be its veracity… not the threat of imprisonment.