immigration in the US

Why are people making such a fuss over illegal immigrants? as far as I know, there are few people here who legally immigrated… given that killing off the native population is hardly a legal immigration and neither is bringing slaves over…?

Answer #1

“I’m not getting into a religious argument with you… this is about who has the right to be here… Most groups, since the British came here, have been ostracized and treated as second class citizens… Even some people coming from other parts of Europe… Every generation protests “illegal” immigrants, forgetting whose land this was in the first place (and saying Native Americans belonged to the land not the other way around is laughable). I just think it’s funny how easily people forget… And it’s all races and religions…”

If this is addressed to me… I apologize for the confusion… I was speaking to utopia’s comment about Christians… and in the midst of a hectic day opened the reply window before you posted. I expected to post this directly below her response to me. You didn’t mention religion in the original post and since you have in what I cite… it occurs to me that you may have mistakenly taken my post as a reply to your original. If I am assuming incorrectly… pardon the post and ignore it please.

Since I have been invited in a sense to respond to the original post I will in a concise manner.

Food for thought:

Who are the natives?… Waves of human migration have been theorized to have occurred for tens of millenia. Some sooner than others… Studying the haplogroups in the new world we can tell that humans from Polynesian lines settled in the Americas… humans from the Russian steppes were the most recent emigrants… and even Western Europeans by virtue of a rare strain of the R1[european] “y” haplotype not found in Europeans today… as well as the discovery of Solutrean culture tools in ancient American excavations… are known to have made the journey as long as 20,000 years ago. Even the natives had predecessors.

My take on illegal immigrants:

Anyone can see that illegal immigration is being capitalized upon for cheap labor and to damage the middle class. A land-owning middle class is the biggest hurdle for the oligarchs intent on the renaissance of a neo-feudal age. I’m sure that there are cheap farmers and industrialist aplenty who love the cheap workers… but those that pull the levers of society are pitting the peons on the chessboard against one another… their goal being to abolish the middle class. Unfortunately for the common folk… they have the naive wannabe philanthropists pushing their malevolent designs.

Answer #2

“the continent of north america was not a soveriegn country when europeans came to these shores- the native amerians did not have any standing laws against anyone else coming here”

the probably did have laws for people taking over their land… just because it wasnt written in english, doesnt mean they wanted people to come over and steal their land…

“the native americans were immigrants here as well. the united states did not exist when europeans came here.” oh so you are admitting that the europeans were immigrants?

“the majority of native american tribes still exist today- they weren’t all killed off. “ uhm yeah, the jews still exist today, doesnt mean that hitler didnt try to kill them all off, just because the europeans failed to kill all the tribes doesnt mean they didnt commit genocide, or that the tribes have been brought down to pitiful numbers living in pitiful existense…

“as far as the ‘slaves’ go yes that was tragic and wrong, but europeans did not invent slavery, they merely added to the problem. black africans were selling their captives to the europeans- and technically the slaves did not come here illegally either. “ yes, it was completely “legal” to capture people and force them to work for nothing. Right. Because the law didnt exist at the time, I suppose it was ok.

“there are plenty of ways for someone to immigrate here LEGALLY” uhm yes, by getting married, or by having lots of money…

:”IF THEY ARE NOT HERE LEGALLY- THEY DON’T BELONG HERE.” and I repeat, your ancestors came over here, killed off the natives, took over their land, and then brought slaves to work for them. You can paint the picture however you want. But I dont think you really should be standing on a high horse. What gives you more of a right to the land in north america than any other person?

Answer #3

“That is one way I guess, another way, and I think the right way. . . Is to close our borders. That would force change down there, probably a revolution of some sort. It would be good Foe the people to take their country back.”

It is useless to attempt to close our borders. They are way to big, and the cost to do so would be tremendous and proabably not very effective. The only way to fight illegal immigration is to cutoff the demand for cheap illegal labor. Severe penalties to employers who hire illegals is the only way. It is a simple supply and demand issue. As long as there is a demand, there will always be a supply. We also must do a lot more to encourage change in mexico. They are extremely corrupt, and NAFTA has only made them more corrupt and made the rich richer and done nothing for workers. In fact it has encouraged US companies to relocate there for the cheap labor to be exploited even further.

Answer #4

the continent of north america was not a soveriegn country when europeans came to these shores- the native amerians did not have any standing laws against anyone else coming here. the native americans will tell you that they do not own the land- they are a part of it , it is their earth mother. and if you truly want to take it way back- the native americans were immigrants here as well. the united states did not exist when europeans came here. the majority of native american tribes still exist today- they weren’t all killed off. as far as the ‘slaves’ go yes that was tragic and wrong, but europeans did not invent slavery, they merely added to the problem. black africans were selling their captives to the europeans- and technically the slaves did not come here illegally either. the real issue is here in the present tense, we are a soveriegn country now- we have IMMIGRATION LAWS, that is how the country runs- by LAWS meant to protect the citizens of THIS COUNTRY. we all have to follow these laws. so to tell me that it is ok for a foriegner to break the laws of this country by coming here ILLEGALLY is pure rubbish. CRIMINALS do ILLEGAL activities, there are plenty of ways for someone to immigrate here LEGALLY- that is the issue, ILLEGAL vs LEGAL. it is pretty simple to comprehend- if you have nothing to hide coming from another country , you can get in legally, if you are a criminal in another country, then you are going to behave as a criminal and not abide by any laws. people who break laws are CRIMINALS- period. ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ARE CRIMINALS- we have laws in place against illegal immigration. what I don’t understand is the way that CRIMINALS are being tolerated by a lot of people. IF THEY ARE NOT HERE LEGALLY- THEY DON’T BELONG HERE.

Answer #5

There weren’t any borders, when the ancesters got here, it was a vast land …The natives themselves used the “fight and conquer” techniques to take over other tribes hunting territories…it was what it was 400 years ago…There were no laws, so “illegal and legal” are moot…

p

Answer #6

There’s no point in comparing the past? Why not? Maybe you cant change it, but it seems a little hypocritical to blame all the ills to the illegal immigrants when everyone’s ancestors were at some point illegally here…

Answer #7

* we also pay taxes for them, and they pay no taxes for us. we give to them, and they give nothing back.

So, if we quit paying taxes for them, then there’d be no problem right?

So give them legal status then, and they won’t have to work on the black market.

Answer #8

That is one way I guess, another way, and I think the right way. . . Is to close our borders. That would force change down there, probably a revolution of some sort. It would be good Foe the people to take their country back.

Answer #9

uhm again, “our country”, the country people stole from the natives… should anyone really be saying anything?

Answer #10

Americans call it illegal when foreigners enter “our” country without being invited…

When “we” enter another country without being invited, “we” call it liberation, and expect to be praised…

Answer #11

There is a humane law by which we should all live… Our treatment of Native Americans was clearly a violation of the humane law…

but I guess if you are a christian, the humane law goes out the window.

Answer #12

“but I guess if you are a christian, the humane law goes out the window.”

Hypocritical!

What are your thoughts on the Palestinian genocide ongoing? Which Christians are to blame?

Answer #13

Illegal immigrants are a scapegoat.

If our current laws and policy weren’t intentionally set up to exploit illegal workers it sure works out that way.

Undocumented workers basically work like slaves since because of their status they can not complain about exploitative or dangerous work conditions. They are entirely at the mercy of the police as well as their employers.

If you want to stop illegal labor all you have to do is to have real consequences for employers who employ them. This isn’t going to happen because nobody is really serious about ending it. Everyone is talking a big game but nobody is really doing anything. It would be a lot easier to fine employers $1 million for every undocumented worker than it would to build a fence along the entire Rio Grande.

Answer #14

There’s no point in comparing illegal immigration today, to our ancestors coming here and running the indians off their land… WE…the WE of today, weren’t responsible for what happened and how it was done. That was the way things WERE done way back when…Fight and conquer.

The law is pretty cut and dired when it comes to US who already live here…changing the law, would be the way to go…blanket legalization for those who made it across, is not. For one thing…who exactly are they?? Without secure borders, we can’t be sure of who is in our country and what their intentions are…can we?? How many are from the Middle East? What are their intentions? How many are Hezbolla? Al-quida? The Mexican border is where everybody comes in.

p

Answer #15

I agree the U.S. shares blame in the funding of the genocide and by virtue of a media that fails to report the extent of the atrocities committed against the sovereign nation. I would appreciate more oversight in the manner any future funding is spent.

My point is that the collectivist mentality is furthered when you ostracize a particular religious group and point to them as the problem. Which group is without blame? This is unfair.

Answer #16

there is a difference between immigrants stealing from us and us stealing from the natives. we lived in the same country as the natives - we overtook them. kind of like a civil war. thats like saying we took from the confederates, or the jews took from the muslims. you see, immigrants are coming from a foreign country - they are neither our people or our responsibility. so they are stealing the things that rightful citizens deserve. we also pay taxes for them, and they pay no taxes for us. we give to them, and they give nothing back. so they are destroying our economy, our jobs, and taking our money. the country who has the citizenship of the immigrants should help them out so they dont come over there. but they dont.

Answer #17

It is a shame what some of our ancestors did to the natives. Slavery - what a tragedy. besides working with some local tribes to help them with their Alcohol inflicted , I personally have no dog in either fight. I cannot help what went on before my time, I can only have a part in what is going on now. Illegal imigration is a problem Mexico is one of the richest nations in the world in natural resources. I believe there problem lies within there own system. There government is very wealthy. . . . while the peole starve. Why dont you ask the Mexican Government why imigration is so bad? Why do starving third world nations always have high birth rates?

Answer #18

* Why do starving third world nations always have high birth rates?

For survival. In such societies, the elderly will simply starve if they do not have children to take care of them.

Mexico is corrupt to the core - mostly due to US drug policy. The drug lords have more money than the police. If we want to see an eventual end to illegal immigration from Mexico, we have to legalize drugs to put all the drug lords out of business.

Answer #19

I’m not getting into a religious argument with you… this is about who has the right to be here… Most groups, since the British came here, have been ostracized and treated as second class citizens… Even some people coming from other parts of Europe… Every generation protests “illegal” immigrants, forgetting whose land this was in the first place (and saying Native Americans belonged to the land not the other way around is laughable). I just think it’s funny how easily people forget… And it’s all races and religions…

Answer #20

No, in America, it’s called “illegal” when it’s laws are broken - immigration laws DO exist - and all over the world when people are freed from murderous tyrants who murder thousands of his/her innocent own citizens, it’s referred to as “liberation” - morally the country doing the liberating should rightly be acknowledged and applauded for it’s service to it’s fellow man.

Answer #21

Israel and the U.S. are to blame for the Palestinian genocide.

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