Home More advice Religion, Spirituality & Folklore
I am an atheist. I would like Christians to help me understand some problems I have with your Bible (King James Version).
Here are the problems:
Please see Exodus 9:1-7 Let me quote Exodus 9:6-[So the Lord did this thing on the next day, and all the livestock of Egypt died; but of the livestock of the children of Israel, not one died.]
Please see Exodus 14:9
Let me quote this passage: [So the Egyptians pursued them, all the horses and chariots of Pharaoh, his horsemen and his army, and overtook them camping by the sea beside Pi Hahiroth, before Baal Zephon.]
Now, I am a poor, old country boy, but I see a problem here. In Exodus 9: 1-7, God kills all of the cattle, horses, donkeys, camels, oxen, and the sheep of the Egyptians. [I would like to stop here and say that your God is mighty hard on innocent animals!!!] So, what God does is kill all of the Egyptians’ livestock (see above).
In Exodus 14:9, the Pharaoh chases after the Jews with horses and chariots.
My question is where did the horses come from? God supposedly had killed all the horses in Exodus 9:1-7. I know some of you will say that “livestock” does not include horses. My dictionary says that livestock includes horses. Now for argument sake why don’t we say that the horses are not part of the livestock of the Egyptians. If we do this we have the problem of God making a boo-boo. God forgets to kill the Egyptians’ horses. And thus, the Egyptians are able to chase after the Jews. Now this makes for a better story than if the Jews had crossed the Red Sea without being chased by the Egyptians. We would not have the parting of the Red Sea and the drowning of Egyptians and their horses (again your God is hard on innocent animals).
O.K., Christians, any answers?
In Matthew 26: 36-46, we see that Christ is praying. We also see that three of Christ’s followers are there with him. We are told that they are asleep. The passages go on to describe in detail how Christ talks to his disciples while they are asleep.
So, who else was with Christ? Someone had to be there to witness the anguish of Christ and hear his words. It was not the three disciples because they were asleep. Bad time to fall asleep don’t you think? Oh, one more thing, it was dark so whoever was there must have had a flashlight!!!
O.K. Christians, any answers?
Let me quote Luke 14: 26-[If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.]
Let’s state a ground rule here that “hate” does not mean “less love”.
So, do you Christians hate your life and your families? It seems do this uneducated hick that if you want to follow Christ you have to hate your families and your life. It says it plain as day!
I know that these problems were not discussed in Sunday school. So, I know it will take awhile to come-up with the “answers”. Consult your clergy if you like. I await your answers.
Your humble servant in this, but not the next life.
Okay, so I'm not Christian, I'm a Wiccan, but you just sounded like sooo much fun, I actually had to take some time out of my day to asnwer your questions; after all, you asked with such kindness and respect for your fellow man and their religious beliefs:
"From whom were the animals that drove the chariots? If you say they were from Egypt, doesn't it say (Exodus 9:6) "and all the livestock of Egypt died [from the fifth plague]"? If you say they were from Pharoah, doesn't it say (Exodus 9:3) "[Moses said to Pharoah]: Behold, the hand of G-d is on your livestock that are in the field"? If you say they were from the Jews, doesn't it say (Exodus 10:26) "And our livestock, as well, will go with us- not a hoof will be left"? Rather from whom were they, from the Egyptians who feared G-d [and were not affected by the plagues]. We now see that the livestock of the G-d-fearers that escaped the plague caused great hardship for the Jews [by being used for chariots to pursue them]."
These horses were then used to drive the 600 + chariots the Pharoah and his people later used.
If you want to go canonical though, I would point out Matthew 28:8-20; in that same text you just tried to ridicule for inconsistencies, there is written the fact that Jesus resurrected and hung out with his people for a while, during which time it is perfectly reasonable to suspect he may have recounted his last few days on earth, and in particular his conversations with the big G-O-D...after all, if I was a disciple, that's what I would ask about!
"Abraham Rihbany (The Syrian Christ, 98f) points to the use of "hate" in the Bible as an example of linguistic extreme in an Eastern culture. There is no word, he notes, for "like" in the Arabic tongue. "...[T]o us Orientals the only word which can express and cordial inclination of approval is 'love'." The word is used even of casual acquaintances. Extreme language is used to express even moderate relationships.
Luke 14:26 falls into a category of "extreme language," the language of absoluteness used to express a preference, and may refer to disattachment, indifference, or nonattachment without any feelings of revulsion involved. To seal this matter completely, let's look at some parallel materials which prove our point. The closest example comes from Genesis 29:30-1:
And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years. And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren.
Here, "hated" is clearly used synonymously with one who is loved less. Let it be added that if Jacob hated Leah in a literal way, it is hardly believable that he would consent to take her as his wife at all! (See also Judges 14:16 and Deut. 21:15-17.)
Now here is another example from Jesus, Luke 16:13:
No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.
Such extremes of feeling would be atypical, but the extremes are not meant to be taken literally; the point is that one master will get more dedicated labor than the other. Now let's move into some secular works with the same sort of hyperbolic language. Fitzmeyer's Lukan commentary offers this example from Poimandes 4:6:
If you do not hate your body first, O child, you will not be able to love yourself.
Would critics suppose that this teaches literal hatred of the physical body? It does not -- it emphasizes the need to give preference to the whole self before the body alone. Literal hate of the body would have us cutting it with razors or hitting it with blunt objects -- an extreme practiced in some Eastern faiths, but not among the Greeks! Here is another example from a war song in the Poetae Lyrici Graeci (see James Denney, "The Word 'Hate' in Lk. 14:26," Expository Times 21, 41-42): it is said that in battle, men "must count his own life his enemy for the honor of Sparta" -- is this a literal hatred of one's own life being taught? No! It is emphasizing the need to make one's life secondary for Sparta's sake. Here's a final example from Epictetus 3.3.5: "The good is preferable to every intimate relation." This is just a more abstract version of Luke 14:26!
Bottom line -- skeptics who think that Jesus is preaching literal and misogynist hate in this verse are doing no more than the usual -- thinking out of time, out of mind with the text, and in some cases (like Barker and C. Dennis McKinsey) letting their own "hate" get in the way of reading the text any way other than with wooden literalism."
In conclusion, you're kind of an idiot. Religion is a necessity to humans; without it, they become self-aggrandizing, pompous morons. Believe me, I used to be an agnostic, and that's as close as you should get to it. It frankly makes you a bad person, and gives you the impression you can take away everything fun about people's lives, since there will be no repercussions for you when you die except oblivion. I don't think zealotry is right either mind you; it's all about balance and self-control...but here I am, preaching to the proverbial "believer". Go ruin someone else's schools, towns, and moral standards, or get smarter about how you think.
To: Whom it may concern From: joseph1949
For silverwings: You wanted to know what I think of religious faith. I believe I can do no better than Ambrose Bierce-
Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.
A bonus!!!
Religion, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable.
For: xiiqzag: Please do not make demands on me. If you do it again you will not LIKE ME. When you reply to me do not use the word “quit”-ever.
For gasmanobt3: You are an earnest, conservative Christian. You believe that your answers to my questions make perfect sense. They do not. You read in the Bible what is not there. I suggest you take a deep breath and think long and hard before answering my questions. I will be going into detail in another reply concerning your answers to my questions.
For amblessed: When you were having trouble with a plane did you trust in your radar or did you trust in the Lord?
For ruben1211: He will not see this message because he is too busy looking in the mirror saying-I am not an idiot; I am not an idiot; I am not an idiot!!!
For mealw: You remind me of the scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz movie. Don’t get it? A clue-what was the scarecrow looking for?
For Shepard: Where are you oh mighty one?
I have saved the best for last.
For captainassassin: One that pontificates from on high. You remind me of Yoda from the Star Wars movies.
Let me tell you a story.
One night I was outside my cabin looking at the night sky when I happen see a streak of light flying across the sky. It looked like it landed in a swamp that was a mile from the cabin. I thought to myself that this was a mighty strange sight. I said maybe it was a meteorite and if it was I would be rich and go to Hollywood and get me a big fancy house with one of them there cement ponds! So I called–up my friend Jeb and asked him if he wanted to go frog gigging with me tomorrow night. He said that sounded mighty good to him. He said he had a hankin’ for some frog legs. The frog gigging was just a ruse so Jeb could help me look for the meteorite. I was thinking that two pairs of eyes would be better than one pair.
So the next night Jeb and I set out to do some frog gigging. I told Jeb that besides looking for frogs we should be looking for a big rock. Jeb said why and I said that the rock was special to me because it had Indian carvings on it and I wanted to show it to some friends of mine at the near by college. I told Jeb that I had seen the rock a long time ago, but could not find it again. Now Jeb bought this hook line and sinker. Jeb is a good ole boy, but he didn’t have much book learning. For what it is worth he was also a conservative Christian.
We were in the swamp for a good two hours when I saw a movement in the reeds. I poked at it with my frog gigger. It hit something and I pulled it out of the water to see how big the frog was. Jeb came over with his flashlight. Well! You could have knocked me over with a feather. What we saw I will never forget. I have been to the city and saw the elephant, but I had never seen anything like this before. Jeb ask me for my opinion on what it was. Before I could answer the creature whose was stick good and proper on my gigger and whose arms and legs were flailing about in some death throes let out a sound that sounded to me like “Frog am I not”. Jeb almost dropped his flashlight. I was shaken to, but I knew what I had. I had me a Yoda.
I asked Jeb if he ever had seen a Star Wars movie and he said he had not. Jeb, being the good conservative Christian that he was, said that those movies were the work of the devil. Yes, sir, he went on, those godless liberals made those movies to corrupt the minds of good Christians and turn them away from the Lord. This is all I wanted to hear. I could keep Yoda all to myself. I told Jeb that I was going back to the cabin and cook me up a big heap of frog (actually Yoda) legs.
Just I was about to put Yoda into my frog sack he let out another sound which sounded to me like-“Green am I, but frog am I not”. Well, I tell you, I had had enough of this. I took his laser saber and turned it on (I’ve watched many a Star War movie) and put an end to his backward talking life. Yes, sir, Count Dooku would be right proud!!! Poor Yoda will not be able to PONTIFICATE any longer.
Back at the cabin I took some tissue from the poor little creature so my friends at the school could do a DNA analysis on it. I wanted them to tell me what kind of species Yoda was. To me he looked like a cross between Jerry Farwell and a bull frog. When I got done with the tissue sample I cooked me up a Yoda leg. I thought it was going to taste like frog, but it tasted like chicken-I kid you not!!! I placed the green, little toad-like body in the refrigerator for safe keeping. The next morning I went over to the college with the tissue. The school said they would have the results in a month.
Well, I got the results and then some. This story is being written in a cell at Getmo. What happen was that the school sent the results to the government. Men dressed all in black visited my cabin and took away Yoda’s body. In the dead of night they dig out Yoda’s spacecraft from the bottom of the swamp. They flew me to Getmo and it wasn’t first class, either. I am being tortured in a most horrible way. They bring in a fundamentalist preacher who preaches me the Bible day and night. Weatherboarding cannot be half as bad as this. I have been able to keep my sanity by thinking impure thoughts. Who knew that someday my Catholic upbringing would came in handy. I resolved to breakout of this cell and tell the world my story. Until then I will be thinking about sister Mary Ann, my third grade teacher, (boy, was she hot) and wishing that I had never gone frog gigging!!!
P.S. Tell Jeb I said hi.
captainassassin (now called Yoda), I hoped you have learned a valuable lesson from this little story. And no, it is not to go frog getting. Think about it.
By
To: gasmanobt3 From: joseph1949
You did a lot of work for nothing, gasmanobt3. As I said in a previous reply your God killed the horses once before and why couldn’t He have killed the horses the second time. Why couldn’t your God kill the horses as soon as the horses cross the Egyptian border?
As I said before killing the horses would not be as theatrical as parting the Red Sea and drowning the Egyptians. Your God (well, at least the writer of Exodus) likes to strut His stuff. Killing the horses would be too easy. Why don’t we part the waters and kill a bunch of people.
Now, let us deal with the 36 days. I have not been able to determine the size of Egypt during the time of the Exodus, but I have found out the size of the current Egypt is 385,229 square miles. By comparison Texas is 267,338 miles. These numbers may not be correct. It is only for reference.
gasmanobt3, you said that the Egyptians had 36 days to gather up the horses. Here are my questions: 1.How far did the Egyptians have to go to get the horses? 2.How many horses did they gather-up? The Bible talks about 600 chariots. This seems like a very small number if one wants to stop 2,000,000 people.
You will find, gasmanobt3, that 36 days is not enough time to travel the distance (remember the 385,229 square miles) to obtain the required number of horses. The required number in my opinion would be in the thousands-lots of people means lots of horses.
Why don’t we go to your McDonalds’ wrappers comment. This is a very silly comment. 2,000,000 people produce a lot of garbage. Garbage can be defined as what cannot be used in any productive manner. This would include broken pierces of pottery. gasmanobt3, have you ever watched an archeological dig on TV? If you did you would see that just about every dig site has pierces of pottery. Archeologists have explored the area where the Jews wondered for forty years and have found nothing to prove that 2,000,000 people were there!!! Christians need to look outside the Bible for your answers. You cannot find anything about broken pottery in the Bible, but you can if you read material that is not Bible.
I guess you will say that God is a pottery picker-upper. Yes, your God works in wondrous ways.
The following is material that I found from the following site-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus:
Numbers involved in the Exodus
Exodus 12:37 refers to 600,000 adult Hebrew men leaving Egypt with Moses, plus an unspecified but apparently large number of non-Hebrews ("A mixed multitude also went up with them" - Exodus 12:38); allowing for women and children, the total number involved may have been two million or more.[1] Egypt at the time might have supported a total population of around 3-4 million, maybe even up to 6 million,[2] although Napoleon estimated a only 3 million when he invaded in 1798; in any event, the numbers given in Exodus 12:37 seem to represent something between half and almost the entire probable population of Egypt.
The logistics of the Exodus also present problems. A simple calculation shows that a group of 3 million walking 10 abreast with 6 ft between rows would extend for around 340 miles (3,000,000 / 10 * 6 = 1,800,000 ft. = 340 mi). The "very many cattle, both flocks and herds" which accompanied the fleeing Hebrews, plus straggling children and the elderly, would have increased this distance. Recent archaeological research has found no evidence that the Sinai desert ever hosted millions of people, nor of a massive population increase in Canaan, estimated to have had a population of between 50,000 and 100,000, at the end of the march.[3]
Non-historical theories
Many archaeologists, including Israel Finkelstein and William G. Dever regard the Exodus as non-historical, at best containing a small germ of truth. In his book, The Bible Unearthed, Finkelstein points to the appearance of settlements in the central hill country around 1200, recognized by most archaeologists as the earliest settlements of the Israelites.[4] Using evidence from earlier periods, he shows a cyclical pattern to these highland settlements, corresponding to the state of the surrounding cultures. Finkelstein suggests that the local Canaanites would adapt their way of living from an agricultural lifestyle to a nomadic one and vice versa. When Egyptian rule collapsed after the invasion of the Sea Peoples, the central hill country could no longer sustain a large nomadic population, so they went from nomadism to sedentism[5]. Dever agrees with the Canaanite origin of the Israelites, but allows for the possibility of a Semitic tribe coming from Egyptian servitude among the early hilltop settlers, and that Moses or a Moses-like figure may have existed in Transjordan ca 1250-1200[6]. Biblical minimalists, such as Philip Davies, Niels Peter Lemche and Thomas L. Thompson, regard the Exodus as ahistorical.
In short, no pottery pierces, no Exodus-period.
By
P.S. Where is Shepard? Bring him on!!!
Exodus 8:27 "We will go three days' journey into the wilderness to sacrifice to the Lord our God, as He shall command us." That was how long the Israelites were to travel after leaving Egypt. But to answer your question for more specific a timeline. Here you go. Exodus 9:1 "And the Lord said to Moses, Go unto Pharoh, and tell him, Thus says the Lord God of the Hebrews, Let My people go, that they may serve Me." 1 day. Exodus 9:5 " And the Lord appointed a set time. saying, on the morrow the Lord shall do this in the land." Day 2 Exodus 9:8 "And the Lord said unto Moses and Aaron, Take unto you handfuls of ashes of the furnace, and let Moses sprinkle it toward heaven in the sight of Pharoh." Day 3. Exodus 9:13 "And the Lord said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharoh, and say unto him, Thus says the Lord God of the Hebrews, let My people go, that they may serve Me." Day 4 Exodus 9:18 "Behold tomorrow about this time I will cause it to rain a very grievous hail, such as none has been in Egypt since the foundation thereof even until now." Day 5 Exodus 10:3 "And Moses and Aaron came unto Pharoh, and said unto him, How long wilt thou refuse to humble thyself before Me? Let my people go, that they may serve Me." Day 6 Exodus 10:4 "Else, if thou refuse to let My people go, behold tomorrow will I bring locusts into thy coasts." Day 7 Exodus 10:23"They saw not one another, niether rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings. Days 8,9,10 Exodus 10:24" And Pharoh called for Moses, and said, Go and serve the Lord your God, only let your flocks and herds be stayed, let your little ones go with you also." Day11 Exodus 11:4 " And Moses said, thus says the Lord, About midnight will I go out in the land of Egypt. Day 12 Exodus 12:3 " Speak unto the children of Israel, in the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house." Day 22 Exodus 12:6 " And ye shall keep the lamb until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole of the congreation shall kill it in the evening." Day 26 Exodus 12:18 "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even." Day 33 Then the 3 day journey to the Red Sea. Day 34,35,36. So there was at least 36 days for Pharoh to have acquired horses for the assault on the Israelites at the Red Sea. God killed them a second time because Pharohs heart was so hard that he wouldn't let the Israelites get away because they did all the hard labour. God was proving to Egypt and to the Israelites that He ALONE is God and none other. None of Pharoh's magicians could ever hope to equal the power of God. Also, God drowned them because they would not heed the word of the Lord and allow them to go. What kind of garbage were you looking for. McDonalds wrappers?? The people of that time used what they had to the fullest and then burned what was not needed or it was reused for something else. Tools etc. The word "opened her womb" means that her natural womanly state was restored. Basically she had her womanly cycle again. And no it does not mean "less love". I love my wife and family and friends. Do I hate them or love them less than God?? No. I answered your query in the second question. What matters is what was written not which person wrote it. And yes, I believe the bible is Holy Spirit inspired, written by the hands of men.
From: joseph1949 To: gasmanobt3
mealw, you should read this to since you agree with what gasmanobts said.
Thank you for your reply. mealw says that your answers where good. They are “good”, but wrong. I will show you why.
You said that there was sufficient time for the Egyptians to find more horses. Could you please show me the exact quotes (I.e. chapter and verse) where we can find the interval of time.
Actually there is no need to go to the trouble of finding the quotes. If we assume that the Egyptians had enough time to find the horses why pray tell did not your God kill the horses for a second time?
Here are some sites you may want to go to:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/world/africa/03exodus.html?_r=1&oref=slogin If this does not work, go to Google and type in the exact phrase-Did the Red Sea Part? No Evidence, Archaeologists Say. This is a New York Times article.
http://www.atheistresource.co.uk/redsea.html http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12143a.htm
You mention two million people were trying to flee from Pharaoh. The problem with this is that there is no archaeological evidence for this. Two million people would leave behind lots of garbage (especially after wandering the country side for a number of years). We have no evidence of this garbage. Now, it is possible that your God became a divine garbage collector and pickup the garbage, but I do not think so.
Your answer to the Garden question looked good for second or two, but my one brain cell kicked in and saved the day.
Like most Christians if I ask you the question –Who wrote the gospels? You would say Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John. I would then say that I was not asking for the names of the Gospels, but –Who wrote the gospels? Understand? No.
O.K., the problem is that Christians think we know who wrote the gospels. We do not know. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are the names of the gospels-as in 1,2,3,4; A,B,C,D, etc.
Here are some sites that you may want to go to:
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible4.html http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm http://www.onr.com/user/bejo/4gospels.htm
Basically what Biblical scholars think is that the gospels were written around 70 A.D. The people who wrote the gospels were not contemporaries of Jesus. They had no first hand knowledge of Jesus.
So, we still have the question of who was running around the Garden with a flashlight spying on Jesus.
Here is my answer to your answer for Question 3. It is the same answer that I gave to reben1211. Let me proceed to question 3. Did you not see the following statement?:
[Let’s state a ground rule here that “hate” does not mean “less love”.]
I wrote the statement because based on past history Christians like to use the old canard that says “hate” means “less love”.
Based on your answers to Question 3 you did not see this statement.
Let us examine your answers to Question 3. You quoted Genesis 29:30-1. My reading of this tells me that God gave Leah a C-section. Talk about tough love!!!
You quoted Luke 16:13. It looks like “hate” and “despise” are one and the same. Is “despise” the same as “less love”- I think not.
Ruben1211, words do mean something. I do believe that the authors of the Bible would have used a different word then “hate” if they really meant “less love”. The Greek/Hebrew/Latin languages are not so deficit in words so as to use “hate” for “less love”. Hate means hate-period!
With best regards Joseph1949
From: joseph1949 To: ruben1211
Dear ruben1211:
Thank you for your “kind” words. Your words will give me warmth on a cold winter day.
O.K. let’s get down to business.
You really did not answer Questions 1 and 2. Like all conservative Christians you like to equivocate when you are given a question which you cannot give a logical, straight forward answer to.
Now, I call you a conservative Christian even though you call yourself a Wiccan because you said the following:
If you want to go canonical though, I would point out Matthew 28:8-20; in that same text you just tried to ridicule for inconsistencies, there is written the fact that Jesus resurrected and hung out with his people for a while, during which time it is perfectly reasonable to suspect he may have recounted his last few days on earth, and in particular his conversations with the big G-O-D...after all, if I was a disciple, that's what I would ask about!
You state the Resurrection was a fact. In my book that makes you a Christian and not a Wiccan.
Here is the definition of “Wiccan”: Someone who follows the religion of Wicca. Wicca is a nature-based religion based on pre-Christian beliefs that honors the earth as sacred and sees deity as both male and female, God and Goddess. Wicca was founded by Gerald Gardner in the 1950’s.
Ruben1211, if you are a Wicca then there must be a foam-at-the- mouth Christian sect of Wicca with you as its only member. I say this because you called me an idiot. You called me an idiot because you were not able to answer my questions. This makes no sense. Maybe you were looking in the mirror when you were typing this.
Let me proceed to question 3. Did you not see the following statement?:
[Let’s state a ground rule here that “hate” does not mean “less love”.]
I wrote the statement because based on past history Christians like to use the old canard that says “hate” means “less love”.
Based on your answers to Question 3 you did not see this statement.
Let us examine you answers to Question 3. You quoted Genesis 29:30-1. My reading of this tells me that God gave Leah a C-section. Talk about tough love!!!
You quoted Luke 16:13. It looks like “hate” and “despise” are one and the same. Is “despise” the same as “less love”- I think not.
Ruben1211, words do mean something. I do believe that the authors of the Bible would have used a different word then “hate” if they really meant “less love”. The Greek/Hebrew/Latin languages are not so deficit in words so as to use “hate” for “less love”. Hate means hate-period!
Your turn ruben1211.
To: gasmanobt3 From: joseph1949
I will be taking quotes from your replies and expounding on them.
Quote: The reason God did not kill all the horses the first time was because Pharohs heart had not been hardened enough. God allowed Pharoh to use his manly limited intellect in trying to thwart God's plan. God then allowed Pharoh to watch as his 'mighty army' was washed away by the hand of God, so that Pharoh would know who is supreme. God Almighty. Not man.
First things first. You have to make –up your mind if God killed the horses or not. I suggest you take a position and keep it. I know that as a conservative Christian this is hard to do, but try. It makes things much easier.
Now for the quotes.
This is a remarkable statement. Did you read this before you put this on the site? Based on what you said your God saved the horses so He could kill the Egyptians later. This makes your God an egomaniac!!!
Quote: Yes, I have seen many digs on t.v. and they are bringing to light many truths in scripture.
Would you give me specific examples of digs that are uncovering truths in scripture?
Quote: A few 600 chariots to wrangle up 2,000,000 people would be easy for trained military fighters as were Pharohs men.
Do you really believe that 600 chariots could successfully round-up 2,000,000 people? That many people would stretch for hundreds of miles. The Jews would only have to throw stones at the chariots and the chariots would be covered with a mountain of stones. It would be like 600 minnows attacking a blue whale. At best the minnows could poke at the eye of the whale. The whale would only have to keep moving to evade the minnows or the whale could shallow the minnows and be shed of them once and for all. The Jews could do the something. The people could part and let the chariots drive into their mist. The Jews would then close the gap and envelope the chariots. And that would be that.
Of course, this is all academic. I do believe if the Pharaoh after suffering all the plagues, the animals dying, etc. would not go after the Jews. He would thank the gods that they were leaving. Pharaoh would have to been insane to chase after the Jews. Now, gasmanobt3, you would say that God made Pharaoh insane (God being an egomaniac again) so he would chase after the Jews. Again, your God works in wondrous ways!!!
Please think before you reply to me!!!1
By
If you read the following chapters carefully, you'll find that there was a significant amount of time that elapsed from the killing of the cattle, through the plagues, all the way into the gathering at the Red Sea. Months had passed from the killing of cattle to the time Pharoh told Moses to take the Israelites and go. Also, God was to the children of Israel a pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day leading them. Why? to give the almost 2 million people, flocks etc. ample time to get away. It only stands to reason that Pharoh, during that time, would have either bought or stolen horses from a neighboring country. Horses and chariots were the primary tool for war of the Egyptian army and not having them would've meant destruction for Egypt. Onto the next subject. The garden of Gethsemane. Jesus took His disciples, the eleven, with Him. He then asked Peter, James and John to go on further to watch and pray with Him. When Jesus spoke it was to Peter, James and John, verse 40, "What, could ye not watch with Me one hour?" When Christ came back from prayer the third time he was talking to the 11 disciples with Him. Verse 46, "Rise let us be going behold, he is at hand that doth betray Me." Lastly, the hate issue. Jesus is asking His followers to be devoted to Him. Jesus wants His followers to be purly and wholly committed to Him. If we love our lives more than Christ our "future" lives or opportunity for heaven are lost. That is what's meant by hating our own lives. By denying our self will, our self seeking attitudes, pleasure for ourselves etc. It is when we humans yield ourselves to Christ and bend the knee to His authority that then we can truly live. With a right relationship in Christ. Christ is not asking us to hate people as it would contradict His nature and He said it Himself, "I am the Lord, I change not." God loves you and all of us but doesn't want us to live in such a way that will ultimately seperate us from Him eternally. Jesus died on our belhalf to give us the life we don't deserve nor could ever hope to earn on our own. Hope this helps.
To: Yoda (a.k.a. captainassassin) From: joseph1949
Here is what you said: Sorry, didn’t read it….too long and boring…..
Here is my reply: If you didn’t read it how did you know that it was boring?
I made an observation. No logic was used here. You said that you didn’t read it and I simply took your word for it.
I suggest that you consult a dictionary. You will find that “observation” and “logic” cannot be used interchangeably.
In a later reply, you said that you skimmed my reply. So, if you had said “Sorry, skimmed it…too long and boring..” I would not have made my reply (I.e.-If you didn’t read it how did you know that it was boring?).
In sort, little green one, you confused my observation with logic. I suggest that you not skim my replies, but read each one carefully. You MAY find some faulty logic, but I doubt it.
Here is my response to your asinine comment on my spelling of “by”.
The following are the definitions of “bye” and “bye-bye”:
Note: these definitions came from the Standard College Dictionary, Funk & Wagnalls, Copyright 1963.
bye n. 1. Something of minor or secondary importance; a side issue. 2. In cricket, a run made on a ball missed by both batsman and wicketkeeper. 3. The position of one who, assigned no opponent , automatically advances to the next round as in a tennis tournament. 4. In golf, any hole or holes remaining unplayed when the match ends. adj. Not principal or main; secondary. Also spelled by. (Var. of BY)
bye-bye interj. A child’s word for good-by.
Now, Yoda, if you read and not skim the definitions you will see that you can use “bye” and “by” interchangeably unlike “observation” and “logic”.
If you had consulted a dictionary, my backward talking friend, you would have not made a fool of yourself.
Without your permission I will be using “by’ and not “bye”. If you don’t like it-tough!!!
I suggest that you were looking in a mirror when you were writing the phrase…you’re not a complete moron. You may want to remove all mirrors from your place of abode.
By!!!
To: captainassassin From: joseph1949
Before I start I would like to thank David Hume. What you are about to read was influenced by my reading of David Hume.
The arguments for the existence of God are all based on one word- gaps. Ever since people have been able to think, man has used the God of the gaps to solve their lack of knowledge of a subject. The problem with using God to fill in our knowledge is that this really does not solve anything. One has to ask what is God. There is no answer to this. You will see why in the next paragraph.
One can have no knowledge of God because of the problem of the natural and supernatural. Man is of the natural world. God is of the supernatural world. Man has learned about the natural world through his senses-sight, hearing, touch, smell, feeling etc. This is the only way that man knows of to learn about the natural world or any other world. Man cannot use his senses to learn about God. Can man see God? Can man hear God? Can man touch God? Some people say they can. But how do they know that it is God? It could be the devil, part of the natural world that we do not yet understand, or the person could be simply insane. In short, our natural senses are unable to learn anything about God.
People (believers) who write about God are writing about what they think God is. This is not knowledge. Knowledge is about what we know of a subject through our senses. You can think about elves, fairies, etc., but you cannot know about these things because they are of the supernatural world. Our natural senses are unable to learn anything about these creatures. There is a barrier between the natural world and supernatural world. This barrier is our natural senses. We have no supernatural senses to learn about the supernatural world.
If you want to believe in God it should be based on faith and not on knowkedge.
Captainassassin, this is my LAST REPLY to you until you answer the following question:
how did the people (believers) who write about God obtain their knowledge of God?
by
Its only fitting that you'd quote an opinion-based definition from a long-dead writer commonly referred to as "Bitter Bierce." Since you have an odd affinity for 'ye olde-asse' dictionaries and outdated terminology, here's a section from the CURRENT definition of heathen:
Wow... such accuracy in this case.
let us stick to the facts and not hurl insults at each other. As I have said before insulting someone adds nothing to the discussion.
You've made very few posts in which you HAVEN'T insulted someone. Your thread has made virtually no progress, you've dismissed every other persons' posts as if your opinion is the only one that matters. You've yet to bring any thought-provoking ideas regarding the bible, theism or atheism; and since this is the ONLY thread you've posted in, you've contributed NOTHING to this site.
***Can you tell me how one can have knowledge of God?
Before you answer this question please consult your new and improved dictionary for the definition of 'knowledge'. You made a fool of yourself with 'bye'. I would hate for you do it again.***
The word 'knowledge' has several definitions. If you're thinking it only has to do with facts & truths, you're wrong. It also has to do with principles, familiarity with certain subjects, or just information in general. Dictionaries list multiple definitions by importance; and your usage of 'by' as an interjection, came in 36th and the relevance was listed as 'uncommon' ...like I said before, you're the ONLY one doing it. How very foolish.
Buy a new dictionary, drop it on your foot, then double-over and start reading...
What if, just what if, the validation you seek comes in the days yet to come? I don't believe for moment that the scientists have given up on digging in Egypt or have they packed up and gone home? Yes, I have seen many digs on t.v. and they are bringing to light many truths in scripture. So, if that is the case then it would be reasonable that this tangible evidence you need will be found. Do you really need this physical proof in order that you believe in God? As for the horse issue. Pharoh did live next to the Nile river, right? So we could say that he used it to bring horses in that way. Much quicker than on foot. The reason God did not kill all the horses the first time was because Pharohs heart had not been hardened enough. God allowed Pharoh to use his manly limited intellect in trying to thwart God's plan. God then allowed Pharoh to watch as his "mighty army" was washed away by the hand of God, so that Pharoh would know who is supreme. God Almighty. Not man. You spoke of the number of chariots being so few. Well, don't forget the Israelites up and until that time were in captivity for 430 years. They knew no other life than living in the fear of the task masters from Pharohs command. These task masters were in charge of a large number of slaves and they used fear and intimidation to control them. Much like the Nazis did. A few 600 chariots to wrangle up 2,000,000 people would be easy for trained military fighters as were Pharohs men. G'night.
You know, I could do this all day. I really like flame wars, especially ones that have gone completely off-topic and serve no purpose whatsoever.
To say that you have no friends is a joke is telling me you have a dark personality.
I do. And?
I am an atheist because I have no knowledge of God or gods.
True. Atheists usually dismiss God because they have no understanding of the concept at all.
You cannot be mad at something in which you have no knowledge of.
You do sound like you're mad at something, though. What is it? Try to fix yourself before you want to fix other people.
I have never tried to convert anyone to atheism. Each person must find his or her own way to atheism.
A Christian evangelist told me a similar thing when I complained to him. He never let me get off the bus.
I try to make people think with a little bit of humor throw in. It makes it go down easier.
Well, my humor failed to make anything go down any easier for you. You're certainly not showing any progressive thinking since my last comment.
xiigzag, you do nothing, but insult people. Be nice. It will not hurt.
I try to insult only those who deserve to be insulted. My blood pressure actually goes up every time I have to be nice and polite to someone who is annoying and/or self-righteous. You happen to be both, and I really don't want to kill myself here now.
your turn
Roger.
joseph1949 said: blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah... blah blah blah blah...blah
You seem to have a buffered vocabulary and an 'old & little' dictionary. I you wish to use old & outdated terminology, then that's just... swell. That trend can die with you alone.
I noticed that you conveniently avoided retort on the 'hair-splitting' comment, which was the main purpose of that initial statement. But considering your inability to use 'deductive reasoning' ...your supposed 'logic' is likely flawed as well.
So far your, oh, let's say 'observations' (that way this makes sense to you); more like asinine statements to everyone else, with emphasis on totally unimportant topics. Atheists usually have, in the least, DECENT reasons why they're Atheists; but so far you've only come up with... three things... that the majority of the Christian community don't really give a damn about.
From: joseph1949 To: eleni
Thank you for your reply. I thought I was the only atheist. It is good to have some company.
If you read the replys to my questions you will see that conservative Christians cannot answer my questions in a straight forward manner. Now, I have to admit my three questions were created to make Christians think. There is no easy out for the Christians. The Christians have to go outside their Bible to answer the questions. They cannot do this. They think if they go outside the Bible their souls will be corrupted. They will become one of us- ATHEISTS. Oh the horror!!!
Making an Christian think is no easy task. They have not been taught how to think in a logical manner. They have to equivocate. They know no other way. They have to create new situations to make sense of the Bible. If the Bible does not say it the Christian will say it for the Bible (I.e. have Jesus say or do something that he never said so as to prove their case).
Conservative Christians think the Bible is a history book. It is not a history book. It is a book of faith. I am trying with my questions to get Christians to understand this. So far, as you can see, I have not been successful.
Thank you
I do not want to answer all of your biblical questions, but I should like to inform you about the nex points. Horse was domesticated at about 5000 why ago in the Central Asia, let's say around the Caspian see, probably by the early Scythians. Chariot was developed much later perhaps by the early Assirians who were descendats of the early Scythians. Since chariot that was very effective in the wars of that age, it could qiuckly diffuse in all the cultures around its origin. At about 1600 before Christ the Hyscos people from Asia conquered Egypt because they used (the Hittite type) chariot in the battles against Egypt. This was the time point when Egyptians learned that what is the horse an the chariot at all. They were quite surprised. Later Egyptians could liberate themselves from the Hyksos power, but that time they also made and used the chariot as effective "heavy weapon". Of cours they also breed the horse. What you cite on that all the horses were died in Egypt could have been something natural disaster e.g. epidemic illnes or similar. But from the environmental world (countries) Egypt could restart with horse-breeding easily.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:HittEgyptPerseus.png
The city of Nineva was thought to be a fictional city until scientists had discovered that it actually did exist . I could get the more exact information if you desire. Pardon me if I was unclear in my previous explanation. God killed the cattle, horses sheep etc. during the first part of the plagues. God then destroyed the new or fresh batch of Pharohs army of horses during the Red Sea crossing. Did you miss what I said before about how the Egyptians terrorized the Israelites? They were brutal as task masters. Much like the slaves in early American history, they too lived in fear of the masters whip or gun or rope, whatever. The masters used fear to control thousands. Likewise the Egyptians had Israel at a major disadvantage mentally. As far as God being an egomaniac goes. If you read the passage it was God who continued to harden Pharohs heart so that the Israelites would give God the glory and not man/Moses for leading them out of Egypt. After the Israelites left, Pharohs own court urged him to chase the Israelites and bring them back into captivity again. And yes, My God is an awesome God.
Okay. Why does this possibility scare you so much? Conservative?? You don't know me so please don't assume that you do. I will answer your questions from a biblical view point as that is what you were asking for. If I am reading something into it that isn't there then I have sinned. "You shall not add or take away from the writings in this Book." I forget the actual chapter and verse. All I was saying is that the edge of the Nile is approximately 50 - 100 miles from where the Exodus took place out of Egypt. So it was possible for it to happen for Pharoh to get other horses. I reread Exodus 9 through 14 and am convinced that God's purpose was to make an example of Pharoh for the world to see. Hardness of heart is very difficult to over come. I suffered from it for years. I too relinquished all ties to Catholic doctrine at a young age and my heart turned to stone. Having had my spiritual eyes opened since, I see just how wrong I was to deny my Father.
Blessed is he who has not seen and yet believes. I know it would be hard for anyone who has never seen God to believe that He exists. I have not seen Him but I have experienced His love, grace, forgiveness, rebuke, correction. In my life, Joseph, I have had numerous occasions where were it not for God's hand I'd be dead or gone down a road/direction that was very harmful. Remember that God uses people. Scripture, as defined of faith, in Hebrews 11:1, "is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." At this point in the thread people can use their words to expostulate. Also, they can use the words to continue to insult, throw mud, belittle, malign and be hurtful. This does not help the topic being discussed and takes away from the search for answers and turns it into a vendetta of slamming words. Let's stick to the issue at hand or have one of the advisors lock this thread before it gets way out of hand.
To: Shepard, Neal, mealw, gasmanobt3, captainassassin From: joseph1949
Here are sites that you can go to concerning your hero-Lee Strobe:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/strobel.html http://www.infidels.org/ You can also read the following book: Chalenging the Verdict: A Cross-Examination of Lee Strobel's The Case for Christ by Earl Doherty.
Lee Strobe is someone who makes money selling books, tapes, etc to Christians who do not know any better.
Who is this Shepard? Is he someone I should be afraid of? Does he know more than I do? Is he your hired gun, mealw? Is Shapard going to box my ears for me?
Can Shepard answer my questions without equivocating-I doubt it.
Mealw, you have the disagreeable habit of letting other people talk for you. You say nothing (because you know nothing) and thus I will ignore you.
I will be addressing your replies tomorrow.
Good night
In my experience, people will not go beyond their comfort zone until they are ready to. There's no sense in goading others or pushing them. Sure, it would be nice if people would question things but to try to force their hand is the equivalent, in my opinion, of Christian proselytizing at its worst.
I prefer to lead the best life I can and be a good example for others. If a Christian can look at me as an atheist and see that I am a good person who does not wish to hurt them or take away their religion, then I feel I've accomplished something good. We have to take small steps, I think, in coming together as a people.
Nevertheless, I do feel hurt and angry when people assume I am arrogant or elitist just because I don't share their beliefs. If they bothered to get to know me, they might find out there are reasons why I do not other than simply "sin" and "rebellion."
To: xiigzag From: joseph1949
I have no knowledge of God because we are of the natural world and God is part of the supernatural world. We have knowledge of our natural world because we can see, smell, hear, feel, etc the world around us. Can we use this method to have knowledge of God-no.
People believe in God or they know God because of faith.
Faith is not knowledge.
For me to have faith in God I would have to have knowledge of God. Because of the natural/supernatural problem I cannot in my opinion ever know God.
Calling someone a complete idiot is not a way to make that person think in a progessive way. I think you need to look up the definiton of "progressive".
What is your concept of God?
Roger and out.
I am an atheist because I have no knowledge of God or gods.
CORRECT!
You cannot be mad at something in which you have no knowledge of.
INCORRECT! (lack of knowledge leads to fear, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering)
I have never tried to convert anyone to atheism. Each person must find his or her own way to atheism.
CRITICAL HUMOR FAILURE! (retry? y/n)
I try to make people think with a little bit of humor throw in. It makes it go down easier.
INCORRECT! (no humor detected)
xiigzag, you do nothing, but insult people.
INCORRECT! (sweeping statement)
Be nice. It will not hurt.
DOUBLE STANDARD! (practice what you preach, heathen)
how did the people (believers) who write about God obtain their knowledge of God?
One of two ways:
(1) If God DOES exist, then the individuals who wrote the Bible got their information FROM God, or God wrote the Bible THROUGH them, as they say he did. Since humans can in no way gain knowledge of the supernatural on their own; the supernatural can, theoretically GIVE the knowledge to humans... if said supernatural entity has the ability and the desire to do so.
(2) If God DOESN'T exist, then they made it all up. That would mean God is a fictional character, and one can gain knowledge regarding a fictional character quite easily, by reading stories and other texts which that character appears.
If so, Oh Green One, could you give me examples where I have not used logic or where I could have used more logic. Please be specific.
Here's a an example...
If you didn't read it how did you know that it was boring?
Regarding 'hair-splitting' ...you can use your supposed logic and deduce that I buzzed (skimmed, jumped from place to place) over your SEVEN paragraphs (long), and found nothing that sparked my interest (therefore: boring).
I will be generous (this once) and ASSUME you're not a complete moron, so the only remaining reason you'd post such a response, is to split-hairs (argue over insignificant details). Speaking of which...
The correct spelling is "BYE"
Really? In which part? I gave you the answers you seek. I also am, and was willing to discuss this further outside biblical grounds if you wish. You asked about biblical fact/history, and , using a bible began to answer the questions you posed. Did you not like the answers or are you trying to pigeon toe Christians into not believing? Or is it to justify your own unbelief? If you ask biblical questions, be sure, that you will get biblical answers. I'm no theologian but I know what and in Whom I believe. I have had many a discussion with other agnostics, athiests and Christians via this medium and I will continue, in love, to try and answer the questions people ask, if I can.
Take care.
Yoda, Idiot Omega, Green One, John... are you sure I'm not adding anything to the discussion here?
That no friends bit... a joke you obviously missed.
...and I'm now convinced you're a complete idiot. I don't think the atheists want you to be one of them. Atheists are usually intelligent and open-minded, but you don't even have common sense. Say, did you originally become atheist because you were mad at God? Did you ask something from Him and He never got back to you? Is that why you've made it your mission to convert everyone into atheism?
Your obnoxious pushiness must be the reason God chose to snub you. One less headache after the Second Coming... a win-win situation for Him.
I'm just thankful I don't pretend to know it all and be so arrogant and insulting to a perfect God that I would challenge His perfect word - did you miss the part 'His thoughts are not your thoughts, His ways are not your ways' - in other words, they are HIGHER - bottom line: No man can come anywhere close to His level in any aspect - this, I know that I know: Jesus Christ paid the price for mans sins on the cross - every person will either accept or reject - if any person accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior in their lifetime, they are Heaven-bound - being a good person, giving to charity, etc will not get you there - access only by God's gift to man (Jesus) !!
I'm waiting for Shepard to show up I was just giving joseph1949 something to pass his time with. Myself I find the second 2 questions simple answers Peter, James and John and the word was inspired by God. If you believe in God this is no problem. If not why are you worried about it? The 3rd Yes The original greek word used in the Scripture does mean "Less Love" . If We don't Love Jesus more than all others we are not worthy of him. Besides I'd rather live with hope of a new life in heaven than thinking it's all over when I die. . . Hey if your right we have nothing to worry about but if I'm right.. . . . .
In conclusion, you're kind of an idiot.
CORRECT!
Religion is a necessity to humans; without it, they become self-aggrandizing, pompous morons.
INCORRECT! (sweeping statement) Also, there are PLENTY of theists who are self-aggrandizing, pompous morons too...
Believe me, I used to be an agnostic, and that's as close as you should get to it. It frankly makes you a bad person, and gives you the impression you can take away everything fun about people's lives, since there will be no repercussions for you when you die except oblivion.
INCORRECT! (personal experience is not universal)
If I understand you correctly Joseph, man obtained his knowledge of God through different ways. Personal contact: the apostles for example. Moses had personal contact with God and talked with God, "as a man talks to his friend". Others were given the words through the Holy Spirit. In dreams, God came to many different people. One main way was through the pen or whatever was used to write with. Each time God does or did something or was wanting people to know something the person was told to write it down, "for future generations". Oh yes, glad to see we can all write without the insults.
To: xiigzag From: joseph1949
To say that you have no friends is a joke is telling me you have a dark personality.
I am an atheist because I have no knowledge of God or gods. It is as simple as that. You cannot be mad at something in which you have no knowledge of.
I have never tried to convert anyone to atheism. Each person must find his or her own way to atheism.
I try to make people think with a little bit of humor throw in. It makes it go down easier.
xiigzag, you do nothing, but insult people. Be nice. It will not hurt.
your turn
To: captainassassin From:joseph1949
You cannot be mad at something in which you have no knowledge of.
This refers to me saying that I have no knowledge of God.
INCORRECT! (lack of knowledge leads to fear, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering)
This is captainassassin's reponse to my statement that I have no knowledge of God.
captainassassin, please tell me how you can have knowledge of God and also tell me how this lack of knowledge of God has hurt me.
by
Ok, One I do not think it means horses when it saids LIVESTOCK, I think only FOOD like COWS, also, The bible has been twisted, by he romans, I am a Follower of Christ but I will not take the bible word for word, It is a map and Christ is the key. And what I was told is god told the men who wrote the bible what to put in it... but there are many other people then just the 12 men, he had followers who could of been watching or the romans could of mesed with it, I find it semi un pure
To: mealu From: joseph1949
Yoda likes to pontificate. Captainassassin likes to pontificate. The story was about Yoda (also, about captainassassin). I am the author of the story. The idea for the story came from a Mad magazine cover. It pictured two good old boys looking at Yoda impaled on a frog gigger. I was at my local library and they subsribe to the magazine. I do not read the magazine, but the cover burned a hole in my memory.
I hope this has helped.
by
Yoda likes to pontificate. Captainassassin likes to pontificate. The story was about Yoda (also, about captainassassin). I am the author of the story. The idea for the story came from a Mad magazine cover. It pictured two good old boys looking at Yoda impaled on a frog gigger. I was at my local library and they subsribe to the magazine. I do not read the magazine, but the cover burned a hole in my memory.
Even the preface is boring.
Huh. There's a whole lot of anger going on here, and I'm not entirely sure I understand why. I'm a Christian, and I've got to say I've got no problem with people asking questions. If I can't answer it, I more believe that reflects on me, and not necessarily what I believe.
Joseph1949, could you give a quick recap for me of what's been said, sans all the insults and insipid cries of "What really matters is whether or not you're saved!"?
To: joseph1949 If I find someone who can explain it better than me I simply agree with them rather than waste bytes on a server. And I noticed your questions were not original either after doing some research. Seems a smart guy like you could come up with some original questions instead of asking someone elses.
and Captain To someone looking forward to life in heaven, death is not morbid. It's a new beginning.
So I read the story. . . What does it have to do with Captain? and who authored it? Jo. . . You seem to be making lots of friends here. you should try getting into some of the other areas on the Forum and putting some of that almost 60 years of knowledge to use to help people instead of tear them down which is what you do to everyone that thinks different than you. Or are you that self centered?
To: Yoda From: joseph1949
Calling me a heathen. That hurt.
Here is Ambrose Bierce's definition of "heathen":
A benighted creature who has the folly to worship something that he can see and feel.
And what do I worship? Well, nature, of course. We came from nature and in the measure of time we will go back to nature. Ah! the cycle of life.
See you later my little green friend!
by
when you play a game you play to win if you play poorly you will not win so you play it the best you can to win a victory. Some with life If we do not live for God we have no hope but if we live for Him in a way pleasing to Him we will have a victory. the purpose of living for Him is to obey and please Him, and if we lose sight of our goal( A home in Heaven.) we will never achieve it.
Yawwwn...Religion is the cause of all wars, now I can see why. Nobody really KNOWS anything, and if history is anything to go by, much of what we BELIEVE now is just incorrect, and misguided thoughts. WE ARE ALL ONE...animals, trees, rocks, water & humans are just the dust from stars. If a GOD created man in his OWN image, he has a lot of explaining to do.
To: Yoda From: joseph1949
Was your computer struck on "blah"? You need to get that fix.
Give me that 'old dictionary time' every time. It has saved me many a time.
Observation and logic are not the same-period.
Have you removed the mirrors, yet?
Count Dooku says kept your laser saber dry. Yoda, this is good advice!!!
Luke says hi.
by
To: xiigzag From: joseph1949
First, I am not John. My given name is Joseph. You can call me Joe if you like.
According to your profile you have no friends. The reason is because you can only insult people.
Your insulting manner adds nothing to the discussion.
I suggest you change if you want to have a friend or friends.
Your turn
We have Faith that it is History. . . And you have Faith it is not. You ever heard of Lee Strobel? He once thought as you and set out to prove God Didn't exist. . . now his is an Atheist-turned-Christian. . . . You sound much like he once did. http://www.leestrobel.com/ I provided a link here to his site so you may challenge him.
to: captainassassin from: joseph1949
You can have knowledge of God by studying Christianity, Judaism, or any of the thousands of books out there about God.
O.K. , how did the people who wrote all these books obtain knowledge of God?
I become a prick by a lot of hard work and not by my lack of knowledge of God.
by
From: xiigzag To: joseph1949
As eleni has pointed out, you can't force anyone to believe in what they don't want to believe in. Why a man of your intellect has failed to realize something as obvious as that blows my mind.
Quit being such an evangelist of atheism. Live and let live, and fire only if you're being attacked.
The only thing that really matters is : Are you born again???
When we all stand before God on judgement day, this will be the only question that will matter...
If you are looking for technicalitoes, I am sure you can find them... but, faith is what it takes to please God... how do you stand concerning that???
Observation:
Any of us may fall over on our keyboard and take our last breath in the next 5 minutes - given that fact, the most important question you must know the answer to: If I died today, where would I spend eternity ?...any others pale by far in comparison...especially playing athiest/Christian 'I got ya' !
Any of us may fall over on our keyboard and take our last breath in the next 5 minutes - given that fact, the most important question you must know the answer to: If I died today, where would I spend eternity?
You talk about death waaay too often. Christians shouldn't have such a morbid state of mind.
To: Yoda From: joseph1949
Can you tell me how one can have knowledge of God?
Before you answer this question please consult your new and improved dictionary for the definition of "knowledge". You made a fool of yourself with "bye". I would hate for you do it again.
Your turn little green one.
by
Sensai: A few wars not caused by religion. WWI WWII Korea Vietnam American Civil War American revolution Spanish american War Conquest of the Roman empire ( that actually covers several wars) Conquest of Attila the hun French and indian war I could go on. . . That's not even a drop in the bucket.
To: Yoda (a.k.a. captainassassin) From: joseph1949
I have read your replies and your questions in other parts of this site. I have come to the conclusion that you are like Dear Abby, but without the charm and wit-albeit, a green Dear Abby with pointed ears.
Have a boring day on me.
By
To: captainassassin From: joseph1949
You are going in circles.
You say that the supernatural entity will make itself know only when the entity wants the person to know that it is there.
Has a supernatural entity ever made itself known to a person and, if so, how was this done?
Has a supernatural entity ever made itself known to a person and, if so, how was this done?
I wasn't around in Biblical times, when the alleged contact occured, so I don't know if its ever happened, nor would I know how it could be done.
To: Yoda (a.k.a. captainassassin) From: joseph1949
Am I ^Idiot Omega^?
If so, Oh Green One, could you give me examples where I have not used logic or where I could have used more logic. Please be specific.
Count Dooku says hi.
By
To: captainassassin From: joseph1949
The preface was boring because it was about you.
Please answer my questions: please tell me how you can have knowledge of God and also tell me how this lack of knowledge of God has hurt me.
by
To: xiigzag From: joseph1949
When you hear a teacher say something you did not like did you tell the teacher to be quit? I think you did. This is why you have nothing to say except be quit.
Hear people out and you can learn a lot.
Let me make sure I understand:
If we atheists don't ask questions about religion, we're closed-minded bigots. If we atheists do ask questions about religion, we're arrogant snobs.
Did I get it right or did I miss something?
You can have knowledge of God by studying Christianity, Judaism, or any of the thousands of books out there about God.
How has your lack of knowledge hurt you? Well... its turned you into a bit of a prick...
To someone looking forward to life in heaven, death is not morbid. It's a new beginning.
God doesn't want you to focus on the afterlife. That in itself, defeats the purpose of LIVING for him...
To: captainassassin From: joseph1949
I used "by" because I am an uncommon person.
I have many attributes, but foolish is not one of them!
Thank you. Thankyouverymuch
by (but not foolish)
To: gasmanobt3 From: joseph1949
Yes, gasmanobt3, let us stick to the facts and not hurl insults at each other. As I have said before insulting someone adds nothing to the discussion.
By
To: captainassassin From: joseph1949
wasn't around alleged contact don't know nor would I know how it could be done
This sounds like faith in God and not knowledge of God!
by
Of course. A teacher who is obnoxious, self-righteous, and tends to rant and rave kind of doesn't deserve to be a teacher. He would make a great insurance salesman though.
Since you only seem to be making valid points to YOURSELF; why don't you give YOUR definition of 'knowledge' ...maybe that'll explain exactly why you're so lost.
*** how did the people who wrote all these books obtain knowledge of God?***
sigh
Quit wasting time & webspace; and make what you'd consider "a point"
To: xiigzag From: joseph1949
I have learned in my long life that one can learn from people even those who rant and rave.
Be still and learn!!!
by
This is a formal request this thread be locked. Either start a new thread with a point, without petty name calling, and idiocy or else end this topic.
To: vahx From: joseph1949
Please go to the top and read my question.
If you have any questions I will try to answer them.
Thank you
You never did answer this question Jo. **So I read the story. . . What does it have to do with Captain? and who authored it? good day.
You know what I find amusing? None of us were even Christian.
And you thought the world would be a lot more peaceful without religion.
To: captainassassin From: joseph1949
How can the supernatural entity make itself known to people?
by
Neal, you can always bring up the "Prove Or Disprove" challenge... I doubt they'll succeed either...
To: Yoda From: jospeh1949
If you didn't read it how did you know that it was boring?
by
To: ^ Idiot Omega ^
Use more logic, and split fewer hairs, or you'll go bald...
John, are you sure you were born in 1949? So much for getting wiser as you age.
sigh
Like I said, it will if it has the ability and the desire to do so.
From: joseph1949 To: gasmanobt3
equivocate-equivocate-equivocate...
...and your definition of 'knowledge' is incorrect and/or incomplete.
Such ramblings...
And obsessing about death would not 'please him'
From: xiigzag To: joseph1949
Quit being such a baby.
I second what gasmanobt3 says. . . Good answer gas.
Sorry, didn't read it... too long and boring...