God Doesn't Exist...

Exodus 22:3 is not refering to slaves, it’s refering to a thief stealing. Biblical slavery was a form of honor for a person. At that time in history slaves were cared for and the punishment for the slave owners, by the judges, was harsh. Plus the slaves were then given an option after the year of jubilee to leave, freely, or to remain as a slave to his owner. Slaves were well taken care of and seen as a great asset to their master because of their dedication to the master. The other side of the coin of biblical slavery was Israel’s captivity in Egypt, Babylon, Assyria etc., where they were treated ruthlessly by their captors. Also, people get the idea that God is a tyrannical, sadistic ogre just waiting to smite thee with a curse. This is just not true. The law of the harvest comes to mind. We reap what we sow. If you plant corn in a field you won’t harvest bananas. If we sow kindness, love, understanding, grace etc, rest assured that most times we’ll reap the same. Sow discord, hate, malice and the like and you will reap the same. Almost similar to what the world calls, Karma.

No… it has been confirmed that the CURRENT movement of galaxies (the ones that are within our range to monitor), indicates those galaxies are expanding from a central point.

Are you really trying to say that the current movement of the 3000 visible galaxies (not to mention the billions we know about but can’t see) has not been constant. Have we ever observed anything that would indicate that all of these galaxies at some point in time somehow changed their course through space? To imply that we can’t rely on the data we have today to accurately predict the past movement of galaxies through space is grabbing at straws. We can tell exactly where each planet and known star was 50,000 years ago. Do you think simply because we were not there to observe it first hand that the info somehow becomes subjective?

“Otherwise, the ‘’Creation v.s Evolution’’ debate, would be the ‘’Creation vs. Evolution vs. Eternal Universe vs. Cyclical Time vs. whatever other unpopular theories are out there’’ debate…”

If you’re claiming that “Creation vs Evolution” is a false dichotomy, then I’m in full agreement. But that’s hardly all that’s wrong with that framing of the argument.

“It IS special, because unlike mushrooms, and anthills, and G-spots, and the sun; the universe (its existence, its beginning, its end, and what is beyond) is BEYOND our abilities and our reach, to test and/or explain.”

Just because it’s currently beyond our abilities to test doesn’t mean it always will be. Certainly we can make testable hypotheses about arbitrarially early points in the timeline of the universe - witness what we’ve learned about it through astronomy and cosmology. And even if it were totally untestable (which, in my mind, makes it kind of pointless to speculate about) doesn’t mean that all hypotheses about it should be given equal credence.

And a complete waste of thought, what is that you are trying to say exactly? That god maybe could exist beyond our universe? Heck if that’s the case then we’ll just through unicorns, leprechauns, fairies, the easter bunny and santa clause in there too.

Wasted on YOU, perhaps… we’ve already been over this… try to keep up…

Doesn’t mean that a tooth fairy doesn’t exist. The same type of silly arguments that are applied for god can be applied for the tooth fairy as well.

Again, this issue has been addressed. Read the ENTIRE discussion, before posting regurgitated arguments.

I could say the same for god:

No… you can’t… the origins of god (and the universe) has NOT been verified… it remains speculation, regardless of how much subjective evidence is provided from ANY viewpoint.

But to suggest it hasn’t would defy all laws of motion and gravity that we currently understand. If you disregard the laws of physics, then yes, we have no way of knowing. But wouldn’t you have to have a reason or evidence that they laws of physics don’t apply here?

I think the only way it would defy the laws would be with regards to their constancy…

How do we know there are plenty of factors if we are unaware of them? How do you take into consideration things we don’t know?

To contrast, how do we know enough (about the universe) to draw a conclusion about its origin?

If we applied your logic to evolution, we would never be able to consider any fossil evidence because we were not there when the fossil was created, and we have no idea what may have happened from the time the animal/plant was fossilized to today. It would be just a guess, right?

I’d call it an ‘’educated guess’’ or more commonly known as a ‘’theory’’ …but then again, I consider fossil records and the origin of the universe to be totally different in both scale and possibility of error.

you are mad just because you are not allowed to have sex before marriage

There is no rule or law, be it religious or government, that prevents us from having sex.

so you say that god don’t exist because you don’t understand him.

Neither do you… you’ve never met him, never had a conversation with him, never perceived him in ANY way.

first look around you, the world created itself?

Who said it was CREATED?

can you create yourself?

No, my parents did that. So, you’re saying my parents are God? Okay… I guess that makes me Jesus…

god created the universe and gave us life for free , and gave you the freedom to choose in following him or not.

…prove it…

the only reason you can’t see god because you are blind

You can’t see him either. Use better english.

“That was MY point from the beginning.”

You were claiming that different explanations should be given equal credence, or credence depending on the number of people who believe in them - at least, that was my understanding of what you were claiming. I’m saying that at best, different explanations don’t deserve equal credence, and at worst, you can’t even measure how likely an explanation is to be true.

“No… the origin of toadstools has been established, gnomes excluded.”

Thought. Experiment.

“What percentage compared to the number scientists/religions who DON’T?”

You still haven’t established that the number of people that believe in a particular explanation has any bearing on its veracity.

“AGAIN, that’s nothing compared to the origin of the universe.”

What do you mean by “that’s nothing”? You seem to be using special pleading to claim that the origin of the universe is so special that it has to be treated differently to every other area of inquiry. Why?

look around, see the sun, the moon, the oceans and the universe, the earth as it sits so perfectly just the right distance from the sun.

Of course it is just the right distance. Otherwise we wouldn’t be here. That doesn’t mean it happened as a result of something supernatural. Given the virtually infinite number of stars, the odds are that quite a few planets will be the right distance from their star to develop life.

Also, God wants you to believe with faith and not depend on proof, that way you are showing faith without proof

I do not consider blindly believing in something to be a virtue. Why would he?

and if you do this God will speak to you, directly or indirectly.

I did do that when I was younger. Never heard a word.

If you do not believe in god just try it or say a prayer.

Why would I pray if I don’t believe? I was raised christian. I have prayed many times in my life. I never felt any different afterwards.

What have you got to lose?

I would have nothing to lose but time, and I have much better things to do.

“I disagree… all the events associated with the ‘’tooth fairy’’ have been revealed countless times to be the work of the parents… just like the Easter Bunny, and Santa Claus.”

still doesnt disprove that a tooth fairy doesnt exist… just because parents put money under pillows doesnt prove that a fairy who isnt doing anything doesnt exist (as it doesnt prove that a santa claus who isnt doing anything doesnt exist… same for unicorns, ompa loompas and all other mythical beings)

still doesnt disprove that a tooth fairy doesnt exist… just because parents put money under pillows doesnt prove that a fairy who isnt doing anything doesnt exist

…a fairy who doesn’t do anything? That wouldn’t be a TOOTH fairy then…

as it doesnt prove that a santa claus who isnt doing anything doesnt exist…

…a santa claus that does nothing wouldn’t be SANTA CLAUS, he’d be something else. Actually if he does nothing, he’d BE nothing. A fairy tale character with NO TALE… is NOT a fairy tale character.

same for unicorns, ompa loompas and all other mythical beings

You could re-learn the definition of MYTH… that might help…

…tangible evidence and an explanation of minor events based around perceivable individuals… doesn’t prove its nonexistence? If you provide a verified explanation for all the previously ‘’magical’’ events surrounding the mythical creatures in question. Then what purpose do the creatures serve? All they were to begin with, was a means to entertain children, and to give them a sense of wonder.

Discovering where the chocolate eggs in the garden came from… or learning where the presents come from on Christmas Eve… are minor issues, all within our scope of perception… unlike the origin of the universe…

Perhaps it is not God that created us in his image, but humankind that has created God in our image. To begin with, it’s been pretty clear that the stories in the Old Testament are only derivatives from older religions in ancient Mesopotamia (modern day Iraq). Does anyone remember the Epic of Creation or the Epic of Gilgamesh? How about the Code of Hammurabi, the history’s first known law code? It’s only been through trading and conquest that many religions have intersected with one another, sometimes to create a new religion altogether. My point is, that since true civilization emerged, and likely sometime before that (with evidence of paleo and neolithic grave-sites), human beings have recognized the need for faith in ideas like an creation, life, afterlife, death, etc. And with each question asked about any of those topics, a new question will always emerge.

Furthermore, even with all our current knowledge of how the phylogeny of life is composed, most people still consider humans separate from all other animals, even though we have been scientifically proven to be part of it, so is it that unlikely that we would search for a higher purpose above all that of any other animal? Perhaps to serve the purpose of a higher entity? Of course, the main point behind the argument of us being separate in the animal kingdom and not part of it, is our ability to reason,  because reasons are not, by birth a matter of fact for us as it is for animals (ie; animals naturally sense that seasons change which alters their behavior and causes them to migrate or hibernate) and also because the proponents of modern religion have never believed in evolution.  On another note, of all the magnificent life on this planet, why are none of the animals (some of which can be considered superior to humans in a match for survival) said to be created in the image of God in our Bible? This would indicate a sense of ego to humankind. We will always consider ourselves to be above all else, which may explain some of our notions of who God really is.

Ugh… not another one… -_-

Okay let me ask yu this… If Jesus didn’t exisist then what is Christmas Christmas= the birthday of Jesus Christ

December 25th was a Pagan holiday (more than one) LONG BEFORE Christianity adopted it… and no… its NOT Jesus’s actual birthday. Its just the day chosen by clergy to ‘celebrate’ Jesus’s birth. They don’t actually know what day Jesus of Nazareth was born. 90% of the symbolism and rituals surrounding Xmas are also Pagan in origin (yule logs, xmas trees, eggnog, mistletoe, wreaths, Santa, etc.)

And Easter Easter=the day Jesus arose from the dead

ALSO a Pagan holiday LONG BEFORE Christianity adopted it: A celebration of spring, procreation [symbolized by bunnies] and fertility[symbolized by eggs]

And also where would the terms B.C. And A.D. Come from?? B.C.= before Christ A.D.= after death (the death of Jesus Christ)

That’s idiotic… according to your… let’s call it ‘math’ …your calendar is missing the 30+ years when Jesus WAS ALIVE. A.D. stands for ‘’Anno Domini’’ (The Year Of Our Lord) …and of course it bears Christian influence, because the Gregorian Calendar was originally CREATED by a POPE.

By the way… this thread is regarding the existence of GOD, not JESUS.

…I’m saying we have no way of knowing if it HAS been constant…

But to suggest it hasn’t would defy all laws of motion and gravity that we currently understand. If you disregard the laws of physics, then yes, we have no way of knowing. But wouldn’t you have to have a reason or evidence that they laws of physics don’t apply here?

Comparing the theoretical ‘age’ of the universe, to the amount of time we’ve had the technological means to monitor some of it… there’s plenty of factors we’re unaware of, and cannot take into consideration, so there’s also plenty of room for error.

How do we know there are plenty of factors if we are unaware of them? How do you take into consideration things we don’t know?

…predict the past? Isn’t that an oxymoron?

lol, I guess it is. How about accurate plot past movement. Is that better?

…you can tell based on an assumption that their movements remain consistent and/or and adhere to your calculations.

First off they are not MY calculations. They are the calculations agreed upon by many many experts. Again, physical laws and properties allows us to make that assumption. We have never found anything that has violated those laws, so it is much more subjective to suggest that the laws of physics may have changed at some point.

Its subjective when an individual THINKS its probably true, or BELIEVES it to be true, or WANTS it to be proven true… but cannot.

But we are not talking about individuals. We are talking about a scientific consensus.

I think it is true because there is significant evidence points to it. It is not proven beyond all doubt, but not much in this world is. It is not because I WANT it to be true. It is because the evidence supports it.

If we applied your logic to evolution, we would never be able to consider any fossil evidence because we were not there when the fossil was created, and we have no idea what may have happened from the time the animal/plant was fossilized to today. It would be just a guess, right?

Gotta go for the night. Thanks for the mental exercises. My brain is worn out now. Time for a beer to relax it… lol

I agree lets put it to rest. We don’t differ all that much on the subject. Thanks for the interesting debate, that is until we beat it to death… lol

Will how do you think the Human race got here something had to create us and everything around us there is no turning back you mst believe or you will be left behind when time ends and it will one day: the Bible is here to help us along are way in a positive move.

But it has been confirmed and validated that the universe is expanding from a central point.

No… it has been confirmed that the CURRENT movement of galaxies (the ones that are within our range to monitor), indicates those galaxies are expanding from a central point.

Maybe it is me seeing the implication rather than you suggesting it. But science to me is not about belief. It is about interpretation of facts and observations to come up with the most likely answer based on those facts. Not taking a blind guess. We are probably getting to hung up on semantics here.

“That’s a GROSS generalization…”

Really? Can you provide a counterexample? The scientific method requires that theories be testable and disprovable.

Using a word like believe when talking about science implies there is some guessing going on without evidence.

…and why would it imply such a thing?

“…searches for evidence to support it, but ultimately cannot prove it to be true.”

That’s true of all science. Science isn’t in the business of proving something beyond all doubt - the real world just doesn’t work that way.

He is a belief…not a fact!

I’m already a genius, and you’ve already proven yourself to be an idiot… so you have ZERO credibility regarding such matters.

There is no proof that god exists, but there is also no proof that god does not exist.

Are you really trying to say that the current movement of the 3000 visible galaxies (not to mention the billions we know about but can’t see) has not been constant.

…I’m saying we have no way of knowing if it HAS been constant…

Have we ever observed anything that would indicate that all of these galaxies at some point in time somehow changed their course through space?

Comparing the theoretical ‘age’ of the universe, to the amount of time we’ve had the technological means to monitor some of it… there’s plenty of factors we’re unaware of, and cannot take into consideration, so there’s also plenty of room for error.

To imply that we can’t rely on the data we have today to accurately predict the past movement of galaxies through space is grabbing at straws.

…predict the past? Isn’t that an oxymoron?

We can tell exactly where each planet and known star was 50,000 years ago.

…you can tell based on an assumption that their movements remain consistent and/or and adhere to your calculations.

Do you think simply because we were not there to observe it first hand that the info somehow becomes subjective?

Its subjective when an individual THINKS its probably true, or BELIEVES it to be true, or WANTS it to be proven true… but cannot.

“Do you have any objective evidence as to what caused the universe to exist?”

No. Do you have any objective evidence of where toadstools come from? It’s my hypothesis that they’re placed there by Toadstool Gnomes, and in the absense of any objective evidence, you must give my theory serious consideration… right?

You say God does not exists and that the Bible is fiction that someone just decided to write.Do you believe that George Washington existed? Do you believe Abraham Lincoln existed? If your answer is yes, please tell me why. Did you ever meet them, do you personally know anyone who has? Or did you find out about them from some writings of men?

The evidence of washington and lincoln existing is not just from the writings of some men. There are their own pesonal writings, public documents, press accounts, pictures & portraits, and even photographs of lincoln. The existence of god does not have any evidence to support it, other than an ancient text written by suserstitious men.

I am 58 years old, I believe God exists and I believe and know he still performs miracles. He performed one for me on April 3,2009. I have been a smoker for 46 years, April 3rd I got on my knees and ask God to deliver me from this addiction , I’m talking about a 2 carton a week habit, when I rose to my feet I was free from the addiction I haven’t smoked another cigarette or even had the desire for one.When God does something, he does it all the way.

I am glad you have stopped smoking, but why do you assume it was god and not you who is responsible. I find that rather sad. You overcome a great difficulty, and then take no credit for it. No matter what, it is not evidence of his existence. It is nothing but YOUR belief.

I am sorry to say that I’ve noticed a trend in the USA that more people are denying God’s existance, one God only who’s name is Jesus (Father, Son and Holy Ghost are titles) like I am a daughter, wife and mother, titles but my name is Betty. Since this trend to deny God has been going on, I have noticed a trend for the USA to be declining as a nation that the rest of the World looked up to. If we don’t get back to being a nation who believes in God ( what our forefathers believed in) , believes in morales, decent living, and believing what our own money says In God We Trust then we can expect far more evil than we already are experiencing.

Yet another christian who doesn’t understand the secular nature of our country. Yes more and more people are doubting the exitence of dieties (that is a good thing), but it is happening world wide, not just in the US. What makes you think that religion is required to be moral. That is extremely arrogant, and insulting. The only thing that has made us decline in the eyes of the world was the last presidency. Since Obama was elected it has risen significantly. Not all of the founding fathers believed in god, or at least the christian one. Ben Franklin, Jefferson, Washington, Thomas Paine, Madison, Adams, and even Lincoln, out right didn’t beleive, and certainly detested organized religion and christianity. Go read some of their writings. Our founding fathers would have been disgusted with the actions of our government in the 1950’s when ‘in god we trust’ was added to money, and ‘under god’ was added to the pledge. It was done as a knee-jerk reaction to the ‘red scare’. The fathers wanted complete separation of church and state. We are a secular nation. Believe what you want, but keep it out of the state house, and my kids school.

First off, the term big-bang-theory is really a misnomer.

Yeah I know that.

It simply theorized that since observations show that galaxies are all moving away from each other, than they must have been closer in the past, even to a single point. It says nothing about the cause for the expansion, nor anything about conditions prior to expansion.

[The term Big Bang generally refers to the idea that the universe has expanded from a primordial hot and dense initial condition at some finite time in the past, and continues to expand to this day.]

…and from a scientist’s point of view, one who ‘believes’ this theory is correct, searches for evidence to support it, but ultimately cannot prove it to be true. Yet they STILL believe the theory is correct… subjective…

That’s the difference between ‘’the answer’’ and ‘’the best answer we can come up with’’

It is about interpretation of facts and observations to come up with the most likely answer based on those facts. Not taking a blind guess.

But the process of discovering those facts, and the implementation of those facts in supporting other theories, require some degree of belief or bias that your method of implementation and interpretation of evidence is more accurate than some other means.

*Wow…u guys have waaay too much time on your hands.*

Try a little originality.

Notice though fellas, once you rapped him on the head regarding slavery in Biblical times, Tseirpeht has left the building. And left you two to argue amongst yourselves.

How perceptive… tseirpeht’s presence (or absense) here is of no consequence. We’re discussing an issue of mutual interest…

you’re helpless if you believe this.

You’re young and stupid.

straight to hell you go, non believer

…prove it exists… then I’ll go willingly, and immediately.

I didn’t say it did.

…you DID call it the ‘’big bang’’ earlier… are you referring to some other big bang?

It is not much of a stretch to suggest they must have come from a single point.

…but it IS subjective to suggest it without the means of confirming it. Just as its subjective to say that ‘particle accelerator test results’ support the theory, when numerous assumptions about the conditions of the ‘starting point’ have to be made prior to testing.

…it IS when you use it to justify the theory of a singularity. It doesn’t confirm that all these galaxies once occupied this ‘one point’ together.

I didn’t say it did. I said that galaxies are all moving away from a single point. The concept of a singularity is still a hypothesis. But tests with large partical accelerators have had results that support it. If galaxies are moving away from each other, It is not much of a stretch to suggest they must have come from a single point.

Just because it’s currently beyond our abilities to test doesn’t mean it always will be.

I think it WILL remain beyond our abilities. Because I think mankind DOES have limits… we’ve only yet to reach them…

Certainly we can make testable hypotheses about arbitrarially early points in the timeline of the universe - witness what we’ve learned about it through astronomy and cosmology.

Our knowledge about the universe is based upon elements WITHIN the universe, including our processes of thought. That which is BEYOND our universe, is literally and figuratively beyond US.

doesn’t mean that all hypotheses about it should be given equal credence.

…if it is untestable, and in your mind, pointless to speculate about; then all hypotheses SHOULD be given equal credence, equalling ZERO.

It IS special, because unlike mushrooms, and anthills, and G-spots, and the sun; the universe (its existence, its beginning, its end, and what is beyond) is BEYOND our abilities and our reach, to test it.

I disagree with this. The existence of something beyond our reality may be beyond out abilities to reach. But we have some evidence about the origins of the universe (big bang) and that came about through testing the movement of galaxies, which has shown them to be expanding.

Objectively? You can’t. That’s kind of my point.

That was MY point from the beginning.

And if you want to go that route, toadstools are either placed there by Toadstool Gnomes, or they’re not. Only two possible explanations - therefore, you should give each equal credence. Or perhaps not?

No… the origin of toadstools has been established, gnomes excluded.

Not really. Some scientists hypothesize an eternal universe, and several religions buy into the idea of cyclical time.

What percentage compared to the number scientists/religions who DON’T?

No, not really. Once, the majority of people believed the sun orbited the earth, but that didn’t make it more likely to be true - just more widely believed.

AGAIN, that’s nothing compared to the origin of the universe.

But we have some evidence about the origins of the universe (big bang) and that came about through testing the movement of galaxies, which has shown them to be expanding.

…that evidence is subjective. Galaxies expanding and moving, doesn’t provide convincing evidence that they were all once a singularity. And the theory of the universe having a beginning, and the cause of that beginning, remains untestable.

To illustrate my point: Lacking a satisfactory explanation for how something happens does not mean that all proposed explanations should be given equal credence.

Maybe you should think harder about your thought experiment, because comparing the origin of the universe, to fungus, is no comparison at all.

I don’t have to give credence to ANY theory, that tries to explain the unexplainable. We aren’t dealing with numerous explanations, we’re only dealing with TWO. Both of which are supported with subjective evidence and cannot be proven.

“We aren’t dealing with numerous explanations, we’re only dealing with TWO. Both of which are supported with subjective evidence and cannot be proven.”

First, I don’t see how the number of explanations matters. My point still stands that not all proposed explanations are equally plausible, even in the absence of data.

Second, we are dealing with numerous explanations: Every religion has their own story of how the known universe began, and there are multiple scientific hypotheses as to the same. I’m sure I can come up with some entirely new ones if I try hard enough, too.

My point still stands that not all proposed explanations are equally plausible, even in the absence of data.

…and you can calculate their respective plausibility… how?

we are dealing with numerous explanations: Every religion has their own story of how the known universe began,

They all involve the universe being CREATED, do they not? It seems like the only factoring into a theory’s credibility or plausibility, is the number of individuals who BELIEVE it… again… subjective…

God is real! Your parents had you… There parents had them… And so on but where did it start? and how were tha startes created? I don’t really have as much faith as I need too; But I do believe he is real. If you take da time to read tha Bibile and qo to Church den… You may believe in him. don’t say He isnt real… Say you don’t believe in him. How da hxll do you think tha spirits cum bax. If its that simple dey would just stay in dur qrave… Think befo you act:] I cnt believe theres so many people that don’t believe in him. I know he seems to qud to be true but he’s real. But I cnt make you believe in him. and I don’t care bout yall disaqreein wit meh,I really don’t but

He’s real. Point blank peiriod:]]

Hope I helpled. Lol

there is also no proof the tooth fairy doesnt exist…

I disagree… all the events associated with the ‘’tooth fairy’’ have been revealed countless times to be the work of the parents… just like the Easter Bunny, and Santa Claus.

It’s called a ‘thought experiment’. I was hoping you’d humor me for a moment and imagine for a moment that you didn’t have any information on the causation of toadstools.

…what for?

Look it up it is indentured servent. Do not attempt to try and out wit me on the bible.

I guess you just have to have an incredible amount of faith.

But after really analyzing important parts in history and life, I just think that sometimes, if there is a God, he takes many breaks.

“There is no proof of God or of any god(s), but that being said, there is no proof that he/she/them do not exist.”

There is also no proof that Santa, the Easter Bunny, and Leprachauns do not exist either.

Exaclty!! when people say the believe in ghosts and fairys and stuff people take the p*ss outa them… its the exact same thing as god. and why is everyone talkin about slaves I was only making a point that god doesnt exist haha!!

Wow…u guys have waaay too much time on your hands. Notice though fellas, once you rapped him on the head regarding slavery in Biblical times, Tseirpeht has left the building. And left you two to argue amongst yourselves.

But it has been confirmed and validated that the universe is expanding from a central point. That is the theory. Anything else is just hypothesis.

Pfeh. Would you say the same thing about fairies?

No… because there’s PROOF that fairies exists… have you not seen ‘Fern Gully’? Besides, the amount of subjective evidence, as well as the number of believers, the mystical properties, and purposes, are exponentially different between fairies and god.

fairys and stuff people take the pss outa them…*

When’s the last time you met a person (older than 9) who thinks fairies DO exist? They call them ‘’fairy tales’’ for a reason.

yeah but why do people believe in something that isnt actually real?

…you cannot prove God DOESN’T exist, just as believers cannot prove God DOES exist. Nobody can prove EITHER. So your statement is incorrect because it implies an assumption that God isn’t real.

An individual’s opinion of God’s existence is based on the subjective interpretation of emotions, past experiences, and the world around them.

“…you cannot prove God DOESN’T exist, just as believers cannot prove God DOES exist. Nobody can prove EITHER. So your statement is incorrect because it implies an assumption that God isn’t real.”

Pfeh. Would you say the same thing about fairies?

Right now there are about 7 billion people on earth and nearly every one is considered a slave.

…bullsh*t…

Well a slave is defined as anyone who works hard for a person, a household or even an idea.

…more bullsh*t…

we learn that the death of the soul is a result of the wickedness of the soul and that the son shall not pay for the sins of the father.

Funny. Then why are we STILL paying for the mistakes of the first two humans?

The reason bad things happen to good people is because bad people do bad things to good people.

…that’s ONE reason… but not the ONLY reason.

“Exodus 22:3 is not refering to slaves, it’s refering to a thief stealing.”

Yes, and then being SOLD INTO SLAVERY for it.

“Biblical slavery was a form of honor for a person. At that time in history slaves were cared for and the punishment for the slave owners, by the judges, was harsh.”

I’m sure the people being forced to labour for others really appreciated that.

Exodus 21:20-21

And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

I’m astounded you’re actually trying to defend slavery as a good thing.

…you know what I mean

…nope…

argument can be used in more than one way

Not in this case.

I don’t even know what the heck a pina colada is(I don’t drink alcohol if that’s what you mean)

…yeah… you’re underage… that’s why I added the (virgin) at the end. You could also get a pina colada flavored SLURPEE, if you’re feeling timid.

It’s not funny and it’s not amusing.

…so grumpy… like I said before, you’re in the wrong mindset.

I have no proof God exists. I can’t give you evidence that will make you believe he’s real. From your question, it seems as if you don’t really want people to explain why god exists but for people to explain why your right. Well sorry, your not right. Again I can give you no proof why you’re wrong. I really am sorry you don’t believe in God. But he’s real.

I think the only way it would defy the laws would be with regards to their constancy…

Any change in their constancy would be defying the laws of physics, and there is no evidence that that happened. Once a body is in motion, it will remain so until something changes it. No we might be able to say a galaxy might have changed course due to some cosmic event, and I am sure it happens. But that can not be the case with all of them.

Like I said earlier. I think we are arguing semantics. The only conclusion I drew about our origins, is that there is evidence that all galaxies were at one time closer together, possibly to the point of a singularity.

I agree that evolution and the origins of the universe are very different, but the study of both should use the same scientific method.

Napoleon I am not sure which god you are referring to? Is it the Buddhist, Islam, Christian, Hindu, Islam, Jainism? If any above, what make you so sure, YOUR god were the one responsible for getting ALL so organized???

AND “IF” is not your god, what is the chances that NO gods were responsible for ALL and it was only a natural occurance???

Here is some study material for you Napoleon, study of World religions mnsu.edu/emuseum/cultural/religion/ this ought to keep you busy for a while

I don’t consider the big bang a belief anymore than I consider gravity to be a belief.

Gravity can be perceived, tested, and measured, here and now. Its not a hypothetical event that occured billions of years ago.

It isn’t belief or bias, it is experience.

Not without validation. Science has been wrong before… regarding topics that exist on our planet, in our back yard; things that CAN be perceived, tested, measured. So the margin of error is FAR greater with something that CANNOT be tested. Regardless of all the accomplishments of the scientific method so far; when it comes to the origin of the universe… science has a handicap…

But the process of discovering those facts, and the implementation of those facts in supporting other theories, require some degree of belief or bias that your method of implementation and interpretation of evidence is more accurate than some other means.

The scientific method has been time tested. We know if the methods are maintained, the results are usually accurate. And it takes much consensus before something is generally accepted as fact. I don’t consider the big bang a belief anymore than I consider gravity to be a belief.

It isn’t belief or bias, it is experience.

I definitely agree! thanks for pointing that out to everyone who doesn’t :)

…and from a scientist’s point of view, one who ‘believes’ this theory is correct, searches for evidence to support it, but ultimately cannot prove it to be true. Yet they STILL believe the theory is correct… subjective…

Using a word like believe when talking about science implies there is some guessing going on without evidence. Of course all theories are based on our current knowledge and future discoveries could change things. But that does not mean we are just guessing now. There is plenty of evidence to support it. There is far more evidence supporting it than any other explanations so far. Call it the best we can come up with if you want, but that could be said for just about every scientific theory we have today.

have brains and you will think

I agree with tseirpeht. He is one insightful person.

A common reason people belief in god is out of ignorance, other people are just assuming and havn’t given it much critical thought.

–Our knowledge about the universe is based upon elements WITHIN the universe, including our processes of thought. That which is BEYOND our universe, is literally and figuratively beyond US.–

And a complete waste of thought, what is that you are trying to say exactly? That god maybe could exist beyond our universe? Heck if that’s the case then we’ll just through unicorns, leprechauns, fairies, the easter bunny and santa clause in there too.

–I disagree… all the events associated with the ‘’tooth fairy’’ have been revealed countless times to be the work of the parents… just like the Easter Bunny, and Santa Claus.–

Doesn’t mean that a tooth fairy doesn’t exist. The same type of silly arguments that are applied for god can be applied for the tooth fairy as well.

–If you provide a verified explanation for all the previously ‘’magical’’ events surrounding the mythical creatures in question. Then what purpose do the creatures serve? All they were to begin with, was a means to entertain children, and to give them a sense of wonder.–

I could say the same for god:

Since we have direct evidence for the origins associated with god, what purpose does this being serve? All it was to begin with was ancient mythology, a way to give life meaning, and to explain what was inexplicable.

Ps. Could the quotations please be fixed

Everyone needs something to believe in–that is why religion exists. At some point and time some time of “higher being” was created to create a sense of security to the people. Over the years, others created numerous other different types of “supreme being”. Be it cow, invisible “deities”, or whatever they were developed to fit the culture where they were presiding over. If anything regarding religion were true, surely wouldn’t there be only one G-d. Each religion believes that not worshipping the way they do, then you will go to “hell”. And, each individual religion believes it is the true religion, gospel, what have you. So…who is right? And before you say “God” and. Christianity–well, they’re all going to say they’re the one true religion, Who’s right? Or is anyone?? And lastly, if there were truly a G-d who loves us and everything so very much—why would “he” allow so many wars, feuds, and deaths occur for the sake of “him” or religion? There have been more wars caused by religion than any other cause… ever!

captainassassin, your argument in a nutshell seems to be that since the origin of the universe is currently beyond us we should take ancient superstition seriously.

I disagree, I think it’s perfectly acceptable to regard what fits the scientific evidence and rule out irrational notions. And from that, my opinion is that the cosmos being created by god is no less ridiculous than shrooms being made by gnomes.

Do you consider yourself agnostic to Zeus?

Fyi: I did read the entire thread, my point was that you failed to make one

That’s true of all science. Science isn’t in the business of proving something beyond all doubt - the real world just doesn’t work that way.

That’s a GROSS generalization…

Slavery of Christ

When you hear the word slave what do you think of?  Well the first thing that would probably come to mind is slavery in early America.  It may come as a surprise to many that according to the bible slavery is not only allowed but actually encouraged.   Right now there are about 7 billion people on earth and nearly every one is considered a slave. 
So then why would a loving G-d be so supportive of a practice that degrades us humans and places us in the servitude of others?  Well a slave is defined as anyone who works hard for a person, a household or even an idea.  By that definition we could all be slaves to our family, jobs and money.  Our founding fathers were slaves to the idea of a free nation (irony noted).   
It is important to note that the difference between G-d’s laws vastly differ from the laws of man concerning slavery.  The slaves in the bible were actually apprentices, released after six years of service.  According to G-d’s law they should be richly rewarded Deuteronomy 15:12, and treated fairly Colossians 4:1.  The ethics of man in all things are inferior to the righteousness of G-d.  Clearly we can see the distinction between slavery of G-d and the slavery of man.  

Where do babies go when they die?

The death of the body can happen from anything, personal sin, or the sin of another.   In Ezekiel 18:20 we learn that the death of the soul is a result of the wickedness of the soul and that the son shall not pay for the sins of the father.  If a man can not intellectually discern right from wrong then he can not be held accountable, nowhere in the bible does it say otherwise.   G-d isn’t a lawyer out to condemn as many people as possible. 

Why do bad things happen to good people?

It is clear that throughout the bible from the gentiles to the prophets they all had something in common and that was sin.  It is because of his love he gave us free will, this free will has empowered the wicked to do evil, and the good to be righteous.  The reason bad things happen to good people is because bad people do bad things to good people.   You can not judge yourself or even another based on personal opinion, that is not justice.  There was only one man who could be called a good person but he volunteered to be condemned.  

Why won’t G-d heal an amputee?

There has been an explosion of technology because of our imperfections.  For every disability there is money being raised to fight it and that is where you will find G-d.  Granted some amputees are a more inconvenient the others but just look at what we have learned and developed.  It is just a matter of time before we can create a fully functioning limb, you can find miracles in modern engineering.

Why does science tell a different story? The earth is not 6000 years old. Where in the bible does it say the earth is 6000 years old? Where in the bible does it say that G-d and man have the same concept of time? To man a day is the time for Earth to make a complete rotation on its axis. To the planet Mars its an additional 41 minutes, Neptune is 16 hours so can we be so sure that to G-d a day is 24 hours? G-d had just created planet earth, he was not a resident of planet earth or any planet so far as we know. Even still if the earth is 6000 years old and G-d created the earth in six days, who is to argue that G-d is not powerful enough to do that. it’s the whole reason we call him G-d because he is all powerful, if he can create a fully grown man, what is to say that he can not create a fully grown planet?

Is Yeshua mentioned outside of the bible?

One of the important aspects of this time period was Roman law.  The Romans are the authors of many laws that we have today.  In fact the census was first used in Rome right about the time of Yeshua, and the census does show that he was there.  Now onward to validate the claims, if you were to look at the Roman records you will find Pontius Pilate and all of his reports which describes what the bible says.  This only validates the death though, the interesting part is where you find independent journals.  If you were to go through these independent journals it would take a life time because there are thousands.  The bible was not written by one man with a good imagination but many men during different time periods yet amazingly enough each story gives an accurate depiction of Yeshua, G-d or both.  So if you read the new testament you will find different authors all of which claim the same exact thing, just from different angles.

“Look it up it is indentured servent. Do not attempt to try and out wit me on the bible. “

Sorry, but you’re simply wrong. A good overview of what the bible says about slavery: http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2006/03/slavery_and_the_bible_take_2.php

In a nutshell: The bible describes slavery of two sorts: Slavery of one Israelite to another, usually for crimes or debts. This is the sort that lasts a limited time, but even then, the owners can beat them, just as long as they don’t die:

“And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money [property].” (Exodus 21).

The other sort of slavery is Israelites enslaving people from other cultures. The bible is pretty clear that this is just peachy, and that the slaves become property, to be inherited, etcetera.

Leviticus 25: 44-46: “Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour. “

“Well a slave is defined as anyone who works hard for a person, a household or even an idea.”

Total BS and historical whitewashing. The bible is quite clear on slavery, and it’s not some airy fairy ‘apprenticeship’.

Exodus 21:20-21

And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. 

Exodus 22:3

If he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. 

Leviticus 25:44-46

Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever.

You were claiming that different explanations should be given equal credence, or credence depending on the number of people who believe in them - at least, that was my understanding of what you were claiming.

No… I didn’t say that’s what should happen, I claimed that’s what SEEMS to be happening. Otherwise, the ‘’Creation v.s Evolution’’ debate, would be the ‘’Creation vs. Evolution vs. Eternal Universe vs. Cyclical Time vs. whatever other unpopular theories are out there’’ debate…

I’m saying that at best, different explanations don’t deserve equal credence, and at worst, you can’t even measure how likely an explanation is to be true.

I’m saying ultimately, they’re all EQUALLY pointless.

Thought. Experiment.

Think. Of. Better. One.

What do you mean by that’s nothing? You seem to be using special pleading to claim that the origin of the universe is so special that it has to be treated differently to every other area of inquiry. Why?

It IS special, because unlike mushrooms, and anthills, and G-spots, and the sun; the universe (its existence, its beginning, its end, and what is beyond) is BEYOND our abilities and our reach, to test and/or explain.

I agree KIND OF, I mean im so badly sitting on the wall my bum hurts!! :) Yeah the bible people probably are loonies and god is just somin of there imagination and stuff, and Jesus is probably just some random man of the past like my dad who maybe was a doctor and saved someone’s life and the whole story was bigged up to be a miricle and stuff. And if god did exist why doesnt he just wave his magic fairy wand a cure the world? so I agree with you there. But im not going to go to people and say GOD DOES NOT EXIST, FINAL! because I think people belive in him because its like a comfort for them through hard times, like say your homeless, lonely and dying, you might pray to him and having that hope you might survive because he will help you, helps them get through. And I dont want to spoil that for them. SO yeah, im this way and that. He is prob everyone’s imagination, but then maybe one day his hand will come down through the sky and the whole world will be cured and he’ll come and live on a very very tall mountain and Jesus will come back. Its nice to have hope.

“…and you can calculate their respective plausibility… how?”

Objectively? You can’t. That’s kind of my point. It’s an unwarranted assumption to say that all proposed explanations are equally probable. Subjectively, you can evaluate a number of things about the proposed explanation, such as how well it fits with what we already know of the subject matter, how parsimonious it is (is there a simpler explanation that’s equally plausible and explains the same thing), and most importantly, if it is testable and disprovable. It’s the latter that would make it an actual scientific theory, as opposed to an untestable hypothesis.

“They all involve the universe being CREATED, do they not?”

Not really. Some scientists hypothesize an eternal universe, and several religions buy into the idea of cyclical time.

And if you want to go that route, toadstools are either placed there by Toadstool Gnomes, or they’re not. Only two possible explanations - therefore, you should give each equal credence. Or perhaps not?

“It seems like the only factoring into a theory’s credibility or plausibility, is the number of individuals who BELIEVE it… again… subjective…”

No, not really. Once, the majority of people believed the sun orbited the earth, but that didn’t make it more likely to be true - just more widely believed.

Yeah someone could of just sat there and wrote it like they would any other book.

&& also, I believe that Religion was made so that people could hide their own guilt && feel less bad for their wrong doings

*…you cannot prove God DOESN’T exist, just as believers cannot prove God DOES exist. Nobody can prove EITHER. So your statement is incorrect because it implies an assumption that God isn’t real.

An individual’s opinion of God’s existence is based on the subjective interpretation of emotions, past experiences, and the world around them.*

Oh captain…oh captian…thank you! :)

This has got to be the most tread worn question in FA…the same people over and over and over…

p

There is no proof of God or of any god(s), but that being said, there is no proof that he/she/them do exist. It is possible that God(s) exist in a different way than we think. God(s) may be there only to judge when we die, or to guide us into the next life, or to ease us through death.

I am not a Christian, Muslim, Catholic, or anything else, but I do believe that some sort of deity or multiple deities exist.

why do people say that god exists when the only proof we have is the bible…

People say that he exists because THE BELIEVE that he exists…

the problem is getting them to admit that it is a belief and not evidence.

thats why im a proud athiest and not just for those reasons the christian god has suposedly “killed” millions of people and kills people for there sins even though he created both them and sins he would be a disgusting thing who is hell-bent on killing the things that he created also if adam and eve were real we would be practicing incest, we would all be related and majority of us would have mental disabilities and other horrible things in my opinion there is NOTHING in the bible that makes any sense and christianity is particular has just caused a lot of wars, and has created a lot of preachers who think its there job to convert everyone even though their “god” doesnt care if you belive in it or not

adviceman, you are being ridiculous. Since I am married, I am not concerned about premarital sex for myself. And it is none of your business anyway.

Can I create myself? No, but my parents did create me. They did it through the biological function called reproduction. A process that exists in all living things. I see no reason to place supernatural causes behinds it. Evolution explains it all very nicely, thank you…

God is a creation of human imagination. Believe all you want, just don’t shove down my throat.

The evidence that galaxies are expanding away from one point is not supjective.

…it IS when you use it to justify the theory of a singularity. It doesn’t confirm that all these galaxies once occupied this ‘one point’ together.

The evidence that galaxies are expanding away from one point is not supjective. It has been tested and confirmed. What is not confirmed is the initial cause for the expansion.

Like I said earlier. I think we are arguing semantics.

In this case, a brain exercise… or thought experiment… n___n

I’m spent on this topic. My initial point was regarding the subjective interpretation of evidence to draw conclusions about the origin of the universe; be it scientific or supernatural.

“…yeah… I do… their existence and life cycle have already been proven and established. “

It’s called a ‘thought experiment’. :) I was hoping you’d humor me for a moment and imagine for a moment that you didn’t have any information on the causation of toadstools.

Do you have any objective evidence as to what caused the universe to exist?

“There is no proof that god exists, but there is also no proof that god does not exist.”

there is also no proof the tooth fairy doesnt exist…

There is no proof of God or of any god(s), but that being said, there is no proof that he/she/them do not exist.

I agree theres no proof

The reason bad things happen to good people is because bad people do bad things to good people.

So if it is a all mighty and loving god, why do he allow such things to happen?
The Eye in the Sky can never do anything wrong according to you guys, so it seems like all the victims of such bad acts must accept their fate, be thankful they didn’t die in THIS event and hope and pray god would next time have some mercy not to put them to trial again! Not that I have anything against your god, I just do not believe he exist or ever have!

Okay let me ask yu this… If Jesus didn’t exisist then what is Christmas Christmas= the birthday of Jesus Christ And Easter Easter=the day Jesus arose from the dead And also where would the terms B.C. And A.D. Come from?? B.C.= before Christ A.D.= after death (the death of Jesus Christ) Yes the bible was written by men but it was inspired by GOD. And you can turn to god for answers to anything.

“Besides, the amount of subjective evidence, as well as the number of believers, the mystical properties, and purposes, are exponentially different between fairies and god.”

Subjective evidence is just fancy-talk for “anecdote”, and the sheer quantity of anecdotes about something doesn’t say anything about its validity. Reality doesn’t care what we believe.

have faith and you will see

what has a God head promised, eternal happiness family, friends, people you can lean when you need help. hell, FORGIVENESS, how people hold grudges stay so angry it destroys relationships. God forgives if you just ask for it. and all you saying there is no God, what has been promised that is so bad. your letting your pride get in the way of something that is great. you go to bed at night knowing you stand for something bigger than your self.

IT’S NOT ABOUT THE PROOF, IT’S ABOUT THE MESSAGE!

yeah but why do people believe in something that isnt actually real?

How do YOU Know it isn’t actually real?

you can’t prove that their beliefs are false.

*when you are down who do you ask help for Budha

Buddha is not on my friends&family list, so no, I wouldn’t ask for help from him.

I agree with you but you need faith

WRONG. You don’t need faith. Some people merely choose to cling to it so they aren’t so fearful. Like a 2 year old clinging to a blankie.

I agree with tseirpeht. He is one insightful person.

That’s your opinion. Plenty would beg to differ.

don’t refuse god and you will be genuis

I agree 100% my love. You my dear are a genius =D

was that last part a question for me? if im down who do I ask for help… er no-one if im down its probably because it was my fault so I would have no-one to blame but myself simples:) I do not need to pray to some imaginary person for help… its not gonna happen

AGREED fully,I tell people that the words in the Bible are and were written by man,they don’t mean anything,things they put in their are just to get peoples brains washed of lies. I would go on but I don’t want to offend anyone.

yeah but in your case I think these things happen by themselves… a dont think things happen for a reason because the slightest action could change everythin…

I agree with you but you need faith. I know it sounds like bs but honestly, when I pray and help others, good things come may way.Coincidence? maybe. but I might as well not take any chances. xoxo good luck

I sigh and I sigh…

I’ve said it a thousand times… I don’t know why I have to keep repeating myself…

yeah but why do people believe in something that isnt actually real?

I agree!!! I always ask myself the same questions

Agreed! Thank you hun!

Woohoo:D

AGREED!

Do you believe that George Washington existed? Do you believe Abraham Lincoln existed? If your answer is yes, please tell me why.

Because there’s independent evidence of their existence, including multiple accounts written by them or contemporary with them. Also, nobody’s claiming they have supernatural powers.

No.

…o…k… what about a theory? Do you have one of those? Do you have any means of TESTING this theory?

Do you have any objective evidence of where toadstools come from?

…yeah… I do… their existence and life cycle have already been proven and established.

Look it up it is indentured servent.

Already did… and your definition was WRONG.

Do not attempt to try and out wit me on the bible.

I don’t have to ‘attempt’ it, it just happens naturally because I know more about the Bible than you.

“…what for?”

To illustrate my point: Lacking a satisfactory explanation for how something happens does not mean that all proposed explanations should be given equal credence. Just because you (hypothetically) don’t know how toadstools form doesn’t mean you should give credence to a theory involving toadstool gnomes.

in glasgow, scotland, where I live, there is an old man who walks around with a big sign saying “sex before mariage = eternity in hell. Its not worth it”. My flatmat and I raided the arts storeroom and made our own sign which said “trust me,it’s well worth it” in even bigger writin than his sign, and we followed him around for a couple of hours pisin him off and gettin some great laughs from the public.

I am not going to say I agree or I disagree, right now, I believe there is nothing to believe in…

I want to believe there is a god that is how we are, but the facts just do not add up.. If he is indeed our “father” den who made him? He did not just pop out of nowhere… && if there is aa heaven, den who made that??

I do not believe that dee bible was writen by gawd, I believe it was some bored man/woman who had nothing better to do..

But I also want to believe that there is something out there.. Something greater out der sen diz messed up thing called lyfe