Are there any atheisits here? what converted you?

When an atheist says there is no God, he has has decided that that is the truth. He then is unwilling to even consider the possibility of the contrary. He has chosen not to know the truth about God because he thinks he already knows it. Such a person cannot know God. A person who has made a more sensible choice is one who has chosen to know the truth about God. That is a person that says, “I want to know the truth about weather a God exists or not”. This person can know God.

That works BOTH ways… except but you can’t ‘know God’ …you can only read what is written about God, or listen to what is spoken about God. Whether or not these things are true, is ALSO not known, they are just believed or not believed.

Yes it is knowing. But there is an element of forcing coming in there. You see because we all can see the sun we no more have the freedom to reject it. We have no choice in that matter. Weather you want to or not, weather you like it or not you are forced to accept the fact that the sun exists.

It isn’t forced, unless its met with resistence. Otherwise, we’re forced to breathe, forced to eat, drink, sleep, live, die. Just as we are forced to deal with such a restricted version of ‘free will’ …if you believe in that sort of thing…

That is not how it is with God. God wants us to know Him only if we want. That is He wants us to know Him and Love Him of our own choice.

…more opinions… more beliefs… NOT knowing…

Absolutely. But what if it something out of the scope of science. They are many things science has not found an explanation. For example science has not proved to us that there is life outside this planet. But in that situation science does not state that because we have not found any evidence for other beings they do not exist. Rather they take the position “We don’t know!” That is where one should logically arrive at and science has taken the right position.

Life on other planets isn’t out of the scope of science, its merely out of RANGE. As technology improves, so does our explorative range. We once thought the Earth was flat, and the center of the universe, remember? As far as scope is concerned, life exists on Earth, in many places. Earth is a life-sustaining planet, which means our UNIVERSE is a life-sustaining universe. Given its plausible size, it is also plausible and quite logical, that other forms or life exist within it.

That however is not the case with Atheists.

You seem to have the SAME problem…

Science is the study of the physical world and science has done a great job at that. But God is not a part of the physical world. Therefore you cannot expect science to provide evidence. However science does help us to study the effects.

You keep talking about ‘effects’ …yet you don’t provide any. You cannot provide a perceivable medium that is a direct result of God or the existence of God. You seem more of the mindset that ‘God’ is the explanation for the unexplainable, and that the only evidence that supports your claims, is that the unexplainable has not, will not, or can not be explained by any other means.

*May be, but Love cannot be touched, tasted, smelt, or see. Only its effects can. That’s the point. You stated that anything that cannot be experienced by these senses does not exist.

You aren’t paying attention. Love is a RESPONSE (a biological & chemical reaction) to those experiences. That is the foundation of ALL emotions. With the right balance and concentration of these chemicals, I can quite LITERALLY give you a LOVE injection, or virtually ANY emotion. Can you list a combination of injectable chemicals that can make a person feel GOD? No…

No so. You cannot see light as is.

So… you’ve never played with lasers, hmm?

You can only see its effects. When you see other things you know there is light. When you see them very bright you know there bight light exists.You cannot see light itself. Heat is again an effect of it.

Still trying to avoid the issue, hmmm? Give up. The affects of light are perceived directly… not through scripture or belief… and the SOURCE of the light/heat can ALSO be perceived DIRECTLY.

Does God emit light? heat? scent? sound? flavor? No…

First of all everything around us - the entire universe is an evidence that God exists. But atheists can not and will not accept these evidences as proofs.

That’s because the universe ISN’T PROOF, it is only evidence (through interpretation) to support your BELIEFS.

No one can prove to you that God exists because you don’t want to know that God exists.

WRONG. No one can prove to ANYONE that god(s) exists, because the existence/nonexistence of god(s) its UNKNOWABLE.

God has presented himself in such a way that He can be known and experienced only if one chooses to know him.

Yeah, regarding this topic, CHOOSING to know IS NOT knowing… its believing. THAT is the difference.

If he presented Himself in such a way that people could provide obvious evidences then He would no longer be a matter of choice and everybody would be forced to believe in it. So people like you who have chosen not to know God cannot be convinced that He exists unless He Himself make you change your choice by some means.

Correct… except they wouldn’t be ‘forced to believe in it’ …they would KNOW it. Which is the same reason why YOU don’t know he exists, you merely BELIEVE he exists. The concept of FAITH would be POINTLESS, otherwise.

This entire paragraph was a waste. You talk as though I am against science. No I am not. I only said IF this mind-set is of Atheists is true, THEN Macro -Evolution (one kind of animal can evolve into another) should be thrown away because they claim that anything that cannot be proven is not true.

…a waste? Its perfectly valid… Science DOES have a better track record than religion, with regards to proving itself. So when it comes to a concept that is yet to be realized, an individual who needs PROOF, will gravitate towards the more reliable medium (the better track record).

Again you are defining love to me and avoiding the question. Irrespective of what the definition is the question can you touch, taste, smell or hear it?

I’m avoiding nothing. I’m telling you that love is just an explanation for the sensations (touch) generated by specific chemicals (physical, tangible) in the human brain.

So yes… you can touch, taste, smell, hear, AND see it.

You see laser beams because of the dust and other gas in the atmosphere. If you user a laser light in a vacuum you will not see the beams but the light does travel and you will see it when it finally touches an object.

Can you see GOD because of the dust and other gas in the atmosphere? No. Will GOD burn through you if you stand in the path of the beam? No. Can GOD be generated via man-made technology? No. Can GOD be reflected with mirrors? No.

Well atheists do not consider the universe to be evidence because that does not support their beliefs.

Maybe you mean the BEGINNING of the universe? And evidence is subjective regarding events that happened before ANYONE or ANYTHING was around to witness it.

They will not accept the involvement of a designer even though they do not have evidence for the contrary. That is why you should have read my post more carefully. I had said, “But atheists can not and WILL* not accept these evidences as proofs.”

Think… harder… they AREN’T proof. The evidence (on both sides) is purely subjective. And subjective evidence is proof of NOTHING but a person’s own opinions.

Well that’s not the truth. That is just you believe.

Actually it IS the truth, and by definition, you have to believe its the truth, or you defy your OWN beliefs in the process.

But what they don’t realise is that to be an atheist they have to believe in a lot of other things without evidences.

No, they don’t HAVE to. There are plenty of atheists that have never even HEARD of god(s) or deities, and simply don’t think in that manner. How can you claim a person has to have an actual ‘belief’ in the NON-existence of something, when they’ve never even pondered its existence/non-existence in the first place?

Like God is not knowable

…you mean the EXISTENCE of God is unknowable? That would be Agnosticism, not Atheism.

There is nothing beyond the physical etc. It is as a result of all these beliefs that they don’t believe in the existence of God.

You’ve got it backwards.

Yeah, regarding this topic, CHOOSING to know IS NOT knowing… its believing. THAT is the difference.

I agree with you that choosing to know is not… knowing, but I don’t agree that it is believing. Its a level before that. Everyone has freedom of choice. A person is free to choose to do whatever he wants, to know whatever he wants and to believe whatever he wants. When an atheist says there is no God, he has has decided that that is the truth. He then is unwilling to even consider the possibility of the contrary. He has chosen not to know the truth about God because he thinks he already knows it. Such a person cannot know God. A person who has made a more sensible choice is one who has chosen to know the truth about God. That is a person that says, “I want to know the truth about weather a God exists or not”. This person can know God.

Correct… except they wouldn’t be ‘forced to believe in it’ …they would KNOW it. Which is the same reason why YOU don’t know he exists, you merely BELIEVE he exists. The concept of FAITH would be POINTLESS, otherwise.

Yes it is knowing. But there is an element of forcing coming in there. You see because we all can see the sun we no more have the freedom to reject it. We have no choice in that matter. Weather you want to or not, weather you like it or not you are forced to accept the fact that the sun exists. That is not how it is with God. God wants us to know Him only if we want. That is He wants us to know Him and Love Him of our own choice.

…a waste? Its perfectly valid… Science DOES have a better track record than religion, with regards to proving itself. So when it comes to a concept that is yet to be realized, an individual who needs PROOF, will gravitate towards the more reliable medium (the better track record).

Absolutely. But what if it something out of the scope of science. They are many things science has not found an explanation. For example science has not proved to us that there is life outside this planet. But in that situation science does not state that because we have not found any evidence for other beings they do not exist. Rather they take the position “We don’t know!” That is where one should logically arrive at and science has taken the right position. That however is not the case with Atheists.

Science is the study of the physical world and science has done a great job at that. But God is not a part of the physical world. Therefore you cannot expect science to provide evidence. However science does help us to study the effects.

WRONG. Love is a byproduct of experiences and interactions with other people and things. It is BECAUSE of perception, that emotions exist. If you had none of your senses, you could perceive nothing, so you would experience nothing.

May be, but Love cannot be touched, tasted, smelt, or see. Only its effects can. That’s the point. You stated that anything that cannot be experienced by these senses does not exist.

WRONG. You can see light, and you feel the heat generated by light.

No so. You cannot see light as is. You can only see its effects. When you see other things you know there is light. When you see them very bright you know there bight light exists.You cannot see light itself. Heat is again an effect of it.

…prove it… until you do… its NOT an answer, just another unproven theory.

First of all everything around us - the entire universe is an evidence that God exists. But atheists can not and will not accept these evidences as proofs.

No one can prove to you that God exists because you don’t want to know that God exists. God has presented himself in such a way that He can be known and experienced only if one chooses to know him. If he presented Himself in such a way that people could provide obvious evidences then He would no longer be a matter of choice and everybody would be forced to believe in it. So people like you who have chosen not to know God cannot be convinced that He exists unless He Himself make you change your choice by some means.

You say that as if all scientists are atheists… well, that isn’t true. Even the ones that DO believe in evolution, are allowed to have theories, and time to prove them. That’s how science works… questions are asked, theories proposed, research is made, and answers are or are not found. Compared to religion, science actually has a better track-record of proving its theories to be true.

This entire paragraph was a waste. You talk as though I am against science. No I am not. I only said IF this mind-set is of Atheists is true, THEN Macro -Evolution (one kind of animal can evolve into another) should be thrown away because they claim that anything that cannot be proven is not true.

Please do not ask for proof of non-existence anymore! It is silly and impossible and it has no bearing on the question of any god’s existence. It is a demand that is long since abandoned by your fellow faithful as a point of argument.

annv You are mistaken. It is not silly nor has it been abandoned anyone.That question is a vary valid one. The argument that, it is illogical and foolish to ask someone to prove something that is non-existent is valid. But it is illogical for the atheists to use it. Here is why. When they use it their logic goes like this:

1. God does not exist.
2. That is true because we say so.
3. Because it is true that God does not exist it is silly to ask us to prove his non-existence.

Do you see the flaw there? If you were making a statement like “A stick with just one end does not exist” or like “a second sun does not exist in our solar system does not exist” then it would be foolish to ask you to prove the non-existence. Why? Because those statements are established facts. They are absolute facts and there are no difference of opinion on them. But in the case of God there are different opinions. Some people believe that it is an established fact that He exists and some believe that it is not. Now lets us the logic again

1. God does not exist - This premise is not an established fact
2. That is true because we say so - The premise is not an established fact so this is just blank claim
3. Because it is true that God does not exist it is silly to ask us to prove his non-existence - Since it is not an established fact that God does not exist making such claim must be backed by evidences

So rather than say that it silly to ask for evidence you may try to provide some evidence.

You aren’t paying attention. Love is a RESPONSE (a biological & chemical reaction) to those experiences. That is the foundation of ALL emotions. With the right balance and concentration of these chemicals, I can quite LITERALLY give you a LOVE injection, or virtually ANY emotion.

Again you are defining love to me and avoiding the question. Irrespective of what the definition is the question can you touch, taste, smell or hear it?

So… you’ve never played with lasers, hmm?

You see laser beams because of the dust and other gas in the atmosphere. If you user a laser light in a vacuum you will not see the beams but the light does travel and you will see it when it finally touches an object.

That’s because the universe ISN’T PROOF, it is only evidence (through interpretation) to support your BELIEFS.

Well atheists do not consider the universe to be evidence because that does not support their beliefs. They will not accept the involvement of a designer even though they do not have evidence for the contrary. That is why you should have read my post more carefully. I had said, “But atheists can not and WILL not accept these evidences as proofs.”

WRONG. No one can prove to ANYONE that god(s) exists, because the existence/nonexistence of god(s) its UNKNOWABLE.

Well that’s not the truth. That is just you believe. When we make the point that Atheism is also a belief people pounce on us. But what they don’t realise is that to be an atheist they have to believe in a lot of other things without evidences. Like God is not knowable, there is nothing beyond the physical etc. It is as a result of all these beliefs that they don’t believe in the existence of God.

None whatsoever… obviously! That speaks for itself… just as much as that you can not provide prove that there is no leprechaun in my back-garden at this very moment (and I live in Ireland!).

There are flaws in your arguments. You said that you don’t have any evidence to prove that God does not exist. That means that God could exist.

Why don’t the Atheist simply answer this question - “Does God Exist?”. Thy don’t and they can’t, because according to you Atheism is the non-belief in the existence. You don’t realize that the question is not “What do you believe about God’e existence?” but about the truth of God’s existence.

Its a lie that Atheism is not “believing that God does not exist” but “not believing that God exists.”

Now… it is YOU who make the extraordinary claim of the existence of a supernatural being that lives outside that realm of natural reality. It is up to YOU to provide extraordinary evidence. It is not up to me to provide evidence of any kind (that would be the day: my neighbor claims that she has been visited by the Bean Sídhe. Do I have to provide evidence against that too?).

Claims are made by both of us. It is not true that on we make a claim and you don’t. To show that I will take your own example. You don’t have to provide evidence against your neighbor. But that is because you have not made any claim. You did not make a claim to her that a Bean Sídhe did not visit her. But in the case of God you do make claims that God does not exist. Therefore the burden of proof lies on you also. So where is it?

Therefore the burden of proof lies on you also. So where is it?

She already said there is NONE… were you not paying attention? Of course, she COULD simply say she has special senses that allow her to sense the nonexistence of god(s)… will that suffice?

To a person who is a ‘nonreligious’ atheist, the general definition of existence is based upon perception, things that can be perceived, things that can be seen, touched, heard, tasted, smelled. It is by those means that existence and knowledge (not belief) is… well… KNOWN. Anything beyond those means of perception, is either of no consequence to them at all, or simply viewed as fantasy.

As for Christianity (since its almost ALWAYS the issue on this site), the burden of proof lies on the theists, because its THEIR ‘responsibility’ (some claim) to ‘spread the word’ or ‘witness’ on behalf of their God. Spread it to whom? To people who DON’T believe in it, of course.

That means you have to convince the atheists that God exists, not the other way around. Since most atheists are of the mind-set: if something cannot be proven to exist, then it doesn’t… OR they simply don’t care about it.

Atheists have no religious doctrine or deity ordering them to convert people… but Christians do.

I would like to start with the meaning of the word religion.

Religion - a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects -something one believes in and follows devotedly;

We know that an Atheist is one who believes firmly that God does not exist even though they can’t prove that. This is what they believe and follow devotedly. Thus contrary to their claim Atheism IS a religion.

Atheist believe strongly that God does not exist. Well them then something must have caused them to come to such a strong faith. Yet they claim that they were not converted.

Also some people are really confused about what Atheism is. Some say that an atheists is one who does no believe in the existence of God. Some say that atheist is one who believes in the non-existence of God. Which is true? Actually though they do not accept this, both are same. But in either case it is their belief about God and not the Truth about God. To be plain Atheists are people who chose to reject the concept of God even though they have no clue if He truly exists or not.

The fact is religious especially the Christians can and do make the positive affirmation that GOD EXISTS. They offer evidences for the existence of God. All the atheists do, is to pretend that the Bible has been debunked. They make the Bible and God silly while they claim to be extremely intelligent. Well anyone can mock anything and make it silly. But the truth remains unchanged.

Here is a question. What evidences can the Atheists provide to prove that God does nor exist?

Eternallife, “… The fact is religious especially the Christians can and do make the positive affirmation that GOD EXISTS. They offer evidences for the existence of God…”

I am delighted! What is it? Share this with us! Do NOT let us down! If you have verifiable empirical evidence of God’s existence, I will convert myself without delay!

“… What evidences can the Atheists provide to prove that God does nor exist…?”

None whatsoever… obviously! That speaks for itself… just as much as that you can not provide prove that there is no leprechaun in my back-garden at this very moment (and I live in Ireland!).

Now… it is YOU who make the extraordinary claim of the existence of a supernatural being that lives outside that realm of natural reality. It is up to YOU to provide extraordinary evidence. It is not up to me to provide evidence of any kind (that would be the day: my neighbour claims that she has been visited by the Bean Sídhe. Do I have to provide evidence against that too?).

Anyhow… apparently, you possess such evidence.

Eternallife, “…in the case of God you do make claims that God does not exist. Therefore the burden of proof lies on you also. So where is it?…”

I am tempted to go with Captainassassin’s solution to say that I have special senses. But alas, I can’t because I don’t .

May I be so bold to proclaim here and now that I also do not believe in the existence of the Bean Sídhe. And NO… I can not prove her non-existence. So… eerr… does that mean that the Bean Sídhe and God both exist?! I also claim that it is equally unlikely that Thor exists… and I can’t prove that… neither can you! Nevertheless, I assume that you do not believe in Thor’s existence.

Please do not ask for proof of non-existence anymore! It is silly and impossible and it has no bearing on the question of any god’s existence. It is a demand that is long since abandoned by your fellow faithful as a point of argument. If you bring this up again, I must assume that you are looking for an unhealthy level of attention. I do not have the time nor the interest to pursue your argument on such basis.

So by this standards then you would have to say that Love does not exist

WRONG. Love is a byproduct of experiences and interactions with other people and things. It is BECAUSE of perception, that emotions exist. If you had none of your senses, you could perceive nothing, so you would experience nothing.

breeze does not exist

WRONG. You can touch, taste, smell, and hear ‘breeze’ …oh, and you can also compress air into a liquid, which makes it VISIBLE.

or even that light does not exist.

WRONG. You can see light, and you feel the heat generated by light.

Because all these cannot be seen, heard, smelt, tasted or touched. Only their effects can be seen or touched.

WRONG. You need to research this topic better. You’re approaching the issue from such a drastically subjective angle, that it makes you seem like you have NO idea what you’re talking about.

The effects of God is this Universe. The question is - Who created this Universe? The answer is - God did.

…prove it… until you do… its NOT an answer, just another unproven theory.

Well if this mind-set is true then Macro -Evolution (one kind of animal can evolve into another) should be thrown away because it cannot be proven.

You say that as if all scientists are atheists… well, that isn’t true. Even the ones that DO believe in evolution, are allowed to have theories, and time to prove them. That’s how science works… questions are asked, theories proposed, research is made, and answers are or are not found. Compared to religion, science actually has a better track-record of proving its theories to be true.

Atheism is not a religion. Anyway, reason converted me to atheism.

I’m not an athiest because why waste my time saying that when simply, there isn’t a god. Because athiests just dont believe in one. So that pretty much means that I’m irreligious–No religion. I started having my own mind and grew out of a lifestyle that my parents gave to me; I became vegan/vegetarian, very liberal.. and then I started thinking about the universe. How could a man live in a fish for a week? How could someone simply part the sea? Or even believe in talking snakes? If it happened back then, why the heck do the snakes not talk now? Then I just really realized that its pretty much all impossible and it’s pretty obvious its all b/s because it was written by man–[dumbest of all species]. & the literature has been changed numerous of times over these 6-10,000 years that man has walked on Earth. That is SO pathetic. We have facts and all that jazz that Earth is VERY VERY OLD & has been here for millions of years. & as I’m getting to the end of this.. The bible is just a rule book to keep everyone sane. -Not being rude.. but majority of people turn to “god” in a time of weakness,, such as a death or something like that.. That’s when they start praying. Not trying to offend anyone. Just my opinion. Thanks.

I’m an atheist. I wasn’t ‘converted to atheism’, rather, I deconverted from my prior theism.

What convinced me that there are no gods is that it really makes no sense and is obviously ancient mythology. Sometimes it’s hard to admit the obvious.

My parents were secular so I grew not knowing what the hell this imaginary God was until a bunch of annoying Christians kept calling me stupid for not knowing their superior and exalted Lord Jesus Christ. Then I realized I was atheist and I could never become like these idiots.

im an atheist and you dont actually convert cause its not a religion besides, I dont believe in god because its a whole load of crap -_-

I don’t believe in god not only because there’s no proof, but also because the idea of god is obvious nonsense and ancient superstition.

I turned athiest because I think Christianity is too complicated. Atleast with being an athiest, I don’t have to worry about where I go when I die :P

Hey Ringleader8, I have no religion, but was never converted to that notion. I grew up with atheist parents. I have studied christian religious history and know a lot about the christian doctrine and culture. I adore the art of all forms that was generated during the counter-reformation and have spent much time in Rome.

But the religious way of thinking, as it is displayed by many of the faithful is not very attractive to me. Religion seem to confuse people and it can often be a harmful element in their life. It can severely denigrate people’s dignity.

Further, the concept of an omniscient and omnipotent deity is rationally implausible and therefor improbable, and the faithful are often apologetic rather than explicit.
So far, I can not justify to be convinced of the existence of God or any god.

Hope that was helpful.

im not atheist but I see reasons why people would beleive in there not being a god.

for one thing, all religious figures “claimed” the big guy spoke to them. well if today a random guy offf the streets said god spoke to me yesterday we would all think theyre insane! what makes people such as mohummad, and jesus not insane. no one else witnessed them speaking to god, they just claimed god did.

I don’t think of atheism as something you convert to. We are born atheists and remain so until we are indoctrinated into some religion. Religion is something you recover from when you return to atheism. Compare religion to a computer virus. Religion infects minds and uses them to infect other minds just like a computer virus infects a computer and uses it to infect other computers.

because the idea of GOD is like the Factories blowing toxic smoke into our skies! its wrong and needs to be stopped. Church is big business and makes millions of dollars off the fear they put into people. And as someone said above reason and logic made me Athiest. Your not converted to it. It is the realization that the whole God concept is BS! and is just another way to get people to attend the lastest trend called religion..

because the idea of GOD is like the Factories blowing toxic smoke into our skies! its wrong and needs to be stopped. Church is big business and makes millions of dollars off the fear they put into people. And as someone said above reason and logic made me Athiest. Your not converted to it. It is the realization that the whole God concept is BS! and is just another way to get people to attend the lastest trend called religion..