americans so pretective of the constitution Say no to guns

Ok well if it wasnt for the USA you wouldnt be able to run your fu*king mouth like you do nor would you be able to dis the country of where you live. The right to bear arms is not harming humanity and how long until you start to ban all things considered weapons because news flash GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE! so if someone wants to kill someone they will no matter with what and after you god damn liberals take all the weapons you mine as well put every one in jail because well there liable to kill someone with there bear hands. AND I AM NOT “BRAIN WASHED WITH PATRIOTISM” I AM SIMPLY PROUD TO BE ABLE TO SAY IM FREE UNLIKE LIBERALS WHO HAT THE US AND BASH THE US AND THEN HIDE BEHIND THE RIGHTS THE US PROVIDES. gUNS ARE HERE END OF STORY TO GET THEM OUT OF CIRCULATION IT WOULD COST MILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND BE NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE SO INSTEAD OF RUNNING YOUR MOUTH BECAUSE you CAN WHY DONT YOU TRY JUST TRY TO BE MATURE AND REALISTIC!

firstly good luck tring to stab someone with a gun in their hand

Who said the gun would be IN THEIR HAND? Its stupid to bring a knife to a gun fight. But if their back is turned, and the gun is in their pocket… well…

the fact you think owning a gun partly defines freedom is sad

I never said (and I don’t believe) owning a gun ‘defines’ freedom in ANY way, but it IS a freedom some people have.

taking away guns is not a punishment its for the good of humanity

That’s the opinion you’ve been trying to defend, but you need to provide evidence to support it. Do you think (hypothetically) if all guns just vanished overnight, that humanity’s violent tendencies would also vanish?

as for einstein good comeback how long did it take to come up with that

According to the time-stamp on the posts… 17 minutes… But that time also included checking emails, answering the phone, vectoring some organics in PhotoShop, replying to IMs, going to the lavatory, and eating some brisket. If you want the ACTUAL time, from reading, to formulating a response… it was almost immediate…

just because I dont agree with them dosent mean I havent fired one so you just ASSUME I dont no what im talking about

Your experience with a gun doesn’t equate to ‘most people’ …and if you ask ANYONE with handgun experience… they’ll tell you to hold it with BOTH hands… not just one.

im going to SHOOT that person and im going to MURDER that person are completley differant things

sigh …Why is he shooting the person?

you assume that I asume a lot dont you maybe you should stop assuming some so much so im still right

No, I KNOW you’re assuming, because you’re claiming to know the reasoning for MY response, BEFORE I’ve given it. That’s an assumption… so you’re WRONG. You also claimed that I’d lie about my response after the fact, yet another assumption… so you’re WRONG AGAIN.

what is all the crp about an inferior complex and protecting my ego you cant just make things up because your getting upset and who has the ego captain asasin does that name make you feel like a hard man or something because your probably just a coward thats why you need to make up stupid names for yourself your the one who is lying to your self and also what member pfofiles do I make myself look paranoid and insecure*

…and now you’ve PROVEN I’m right. Oh my, your ego is so delicate. Would you like to keep digging?

…and when does this hypothetical-guy find the time to take the stolen weapon to the shooting range to practice; so that he would actually be ABLE to hit a human target from the ‘other end of the street’?

you dont need target practice to hit someone most people with eyes and a hand can aim a gun

I disagree its is a differant mind set like I said before getting up close to someone and and having to face them espcially if there scared of the person in the case of the hypothetical guy it would be easier to shoot them and just because someone has murderd someone it dosent make them a cold blooded murderer of course murderers dont care about percentages they intention is to kill but to the victim percentage is everything 9ft further away than the lenghth of your arm and you cant run away from a bullet you can run away from a knife

as for the einstein thing you no im right it dosent matter what im going to say your just going to say something different

think of this situation theres some guy getting bullied hes not got the bottle to get up close and stab punch or anything like that so he finds his dads gun stands at the other end of the street and shoots him

…and when does this hypothetical-guy find the time to take the stolen weapon to the shooting range to practice; so that he would actually be ABLE to hit a human target from the ‘other end of the street’? Have you ever researched any of these documented cases? Most ‘gang-style’ executions, including ‘bullied revenge’ derivatives, were done inside of 9ft, the majority at POINT-BLANK range.

its a totaly different mind set if you have to stab someone you have to get up close then theres chance of getting fuked up yourself and also if your a victim of of being stabed of punched theres a much higher percentage of survivel*

The mindset is the SAME. If you want to MURDER someone, you’ll do what is necessary. Murderers aren’t concerned about percentages.

the comeback was an obviouse thing to say becuase everyone knows who einstein is and to say you didnt think he was that smart well you get the point

…my response was a result of WHAT he said, not who he is… try again.

firstly good luck tring to stab someone with a gun in their hand

Who said the gun would be IN THEIR HAND? Its stupid to bring a knife to a gun fight. But if their back is turned, and the gun is in their pocket… well… how would you kmow if someone had a gun in there pocket to begin with

I never said, and I don’t think owning a gun defines freedom, but it IS a freedom some people have.

if you dont think so then why defend having a gun as a freedom

taking away guns is not a punishment its for the good of humanity*

That’s the opinion you’ve been trying to defend, but you need to provide evidence to support it. Do you think (hypothetically) if all guns just vanished overnight, that humanity’s violent tendencies would also vanish?

well your evidence for having a gun isnt any better than mine for not having a gun in fact you havent even giving any your just asking quetions about my opinion hypothetically no I dont think if guns vanished it would solve humanitys violent tendencies but guns dont make it any easier surley you wuold like to live in a world were you can walk the streets with or go to school with minimum chance of getting shot

and the comeback you can tell it was immediate it wasnt very good it was quite predictable

first serinaty I didnt call you an idiot and it is the goverments job to do whats good for society sure we should take responcibility for our selfs but not every one knows whats good for them ant everyone takes responcibilty for thm selfs

They can also join a gang, and get a weapon as part of their membership. Or they can walk up to someone who has a gun, and STAB them… there is always a way

firstly good luck tring to stab someone with a gun in their hand sure theres always to get guns but theres also ways of making it harder to get a gun its just some people arent willing to try

So you think the government should restrict the freedoms (punish) EVERYONE, for the crimes and/or mistakes of a small percentage of the population?

the fact you think owning a gun partly defines freedom is sad and taking away guns is not a punishment its for the good of humanity

as for einstein good comeback how long did it take to come up with that

tseirpeht who the fuk are you of course im aware guns would still be availible on the black market but 14 15 16 year old kids with no money wouldnt be able to get a hold of them the can just go in to there parents room and take them as for my education how the fuc are you supposed to no what educatoin I have my goverment has one of the best education systems in the world whats a couple of misspelled words got to do with anything if your so thick you can only 1. make a point that someone has already made 2. make irrelevant points maybe your the one who should go back to school as for my points they are clear and by the way check how you spelled misspelled there are two s not one your a fu*kn half witted idiot and by the way god dosent exist jesus was a lunatic and phrannie its not the parents of the dead kids who need to lock their guns its the parents of the kids killing people and serinaty if you cant make a new point dont make any stop repeating your self sure I agree people should lock up there guns more but they dont there are only two infinite things the universe and human stupity and im not sure about the universe

No its not a generalization

Yes it is. no its not you dont have clue you just think you know everything

NO my point was any idiot including you could fir a gun even with your frail old hands could pull the trigger and hit the target. your realy not very good this maggot

Ooh… how circular… you aren’t even READING anymore… idiot…

you have forgot to take medication again princess you just cant prove me wrong and it realy annoys you

No im right

No… you aren’t YES I am prove im wrong

you on the other hand you being a middle class twat boy has never had to do real days graft in your life so you wouldnt know…

…assumption… WRONG AGAIN. this is getting to easy maggot lol

I can PROVE what isay

You’ve proven nothing to anyone… not even to YOURSELF

I have proven me right and you wrong on numerace things through out you just cant take it keep stroking your ego old man

I’ve already proven you’re an idiot… not to you of course, you’re too insecure to admit it, and/or too stupid to realize it. I’m using your ignorance to show other people the flaws in the mindset of the common anti-gun activists

lol listen to you trying to claw back your deminishing argument you simply do not have a leg to stand on and once again you ASSUME notice how its you doing the assuming im not an antri gun activist I simply wanted some opinions and a debate but with your stubborn old man mind you turned it into something else

You’re just as easy to manipulate in a gun-control debate, as the zealots I deal with during religious debates. They end the same way; you lack the intelligence and maturity to think objectively, and you lack the knowledge necessary to justify your subjective thinking

listen maggot you dont have the slightist little tiny winy bit of controll you just think you have and your lack of inteligence means once angain you have proven nothing except your middle class arogance

No hears why it proves my point blah blah blah…

Nope. Proves nothing. There are too many factors you’re avoiding. Your opinion on this matter is subjective and worthless.

you dont know the differance between fact and opinion I proved my self wright and you wrong once again the responcibilitie is on you to give evidence and prove otherwise

once again you have avoided having to blah blah blahbity blah…

You don’t get it… but the point is not to make you understand. Its to make OTHER PEOPLE understand. You can prevent YOURSELF from thinking, but you can’t prevent others. the information I provided is perfectly understandable toanyone willing to accept it you cant accept that someone younger than you is winning the argument somrthing you have proved yourself to be insecure about

No its not a generalization

Yes it is.

NO my point was any idiot including you could fir a gun even with your frail old hands could pull the trigger and hit the target. your realy not very good this maggot

Ooh… how circular… you aren’t even READING anymore… idiot…

No im right

No… you aren’t…

I worked on building sites for three years I know this fo a fact

No… you don’t…

you on the other hand you being a middle class twat boy has never had to do real days graft in your life so you wouldnt know…

…assumption… WRONG AGAIN.

I can PROVE what isay

You’ve proven nothing to anyone… not even to YOURSELF.

you however CANNOT PROVE anything you say

I’ve already proven you’re an idiot… not to you of course, you’re too insecure to admit it, and/or too stupid to realize it. I’m using your ignorance to show other people the flaws in the mindset of the common anti-gun activists.

You’re just as easy to manipulate in a gun-control debate, as the zealots I deal with during religious debates. They end the same way; you lack the intelligence and maturity to think objectively, and you lack the knowledge necessary to justify your subjective thinking.

No hears why it proves my point blah blah blah…

Nope. Proves nothing. There are too many factors you’re avoiding. Your opinion on this matter is subjective and worthless.

once again you have avoided having to blah blah blabbity blah…

You don’t get it… but the point is not to make you understand. Its to make OTHER PEOPLE understand. You can prevent YOURSELF from thinking, but you can’t prevent others.

just because I dont agree with them dosent mean I havent fired one so you just ASSUME I dont no what im talking about

Your experience with a gun doesn’t equate to ‘most people’ …and if you ask ANYONE with handgun experience… they’ll tell you to hold it with BOTH hands… not just one.

how are you supposed to know whar experiance I’ve had with a gun ah your just ASSUMING and the thing about aiming it wasnt a lecture on how to hold a gun I was just an example to show you dont have to go to a fireing to fire a gun

im going to SHOOT that person and im going to MURDER that person are completley differant things

sigh …Why is he shooting the person

hes shooting the person bacause its a debate about guns in responce to the many school shootups in america sigh

No, I KNOW you’re assuming, because you’re claiming to know the reasoning for MY response, BEFORE I’ve given it. That’s an assumtion… so you’re WRONG. You also claimed that I’d lie about my response after the fact, yet another assumption… so you’re WRONG AGAIN.

no because you will never give your reason even though I was right I the place you will just change your answear no matter what I say because thats what all twats do

what is all the crp about an inferior complex and protecting my ego you cant just make things up because your getting upset and who has the ego captain asasin does that name make you feel like a hard man or something because your probably just a coward thats why you need to make up stupid names for yourself your the one who is lying to your self and also what member pfofiles do I make myself look paranoid and insecure**

…and now you’ve PROVEN I’m right. Oh my, your ego is so delicate. Would you like to keep digging?

it very much does not prove you right you can only come out wth smart as remarks because you just make things up you talk sht that is the sighn of a defeated man would you like to keep digging

you dont need target practice to hit someone most people with eyes and a hand can aim a gun*

Okay… you have NO IDEA what you’re talking about your the one who dosent know what your talking about just because I dont agree with them dosent mean I havent fired one so you just ASSUME I dont no what im talking about and whats all this crap about an inferior complex and protecting my ego you cant just make things up because your getting upset and look whos got the ego

The mindset is the SAME. MURDER. I WANT TO KILL THAT PERSON. THAT is the mindset. HOW he acheives it… is only a means to an end. You seem to think that if he wanted to murder a person, the absence of a gun would make him decide NOT to murder. Its foolish to assume that.

im going to SHOOT that person and im going to MURDER that person are completley differant things that require differant levels of thinking the absence of a gun would make people think twice about killing someone so no its not foolish to assume that because its not an assumbtion I know people who would run from a fight but wouldent think twice about shooting someone

just because someone has murderd someone it dosent make them a cold blooded murderer

Right… in this hypothetical case, you can add ‘premeditated’ to that title. Killing someone for the sole purpose of wanting them DEAD… that IS cold-blooded

in the case of the hypothetical guy he hasnt just shot someone bacause he from a differant area or because he got called a silly little name he has been tormented abused and has no one to turn to so he takes matters into his own hands thats not cold blooded its just misguided anger

You’re just assuming… like before… WRONG by default you assume that I asume a lot dont you maybe you should stop assuming some so much so im still right what is all the cr*p about an inferior complex and protecting my ego you cant just make things up because your getting upset and who has the ego captain asasin does that name make you feel like a hard man or something because your probably just a coward thats why you need to make up stupid names for yourself your the one who is lying to your self and also what member pfofiles do I make myself look paranoid and insecure

how are you supposed to know whar experiance I’ve had with a gun ah your just ASSUMING and the thing about aiming it wasnt a lecture on how to hold a gun I was just an example to show you dont have to go to a fireing to fire a gun

I never claimed to know your gun experience, but what I DO know, is that your experience, be it ZERO or more, doesn’t equate to ‘most people’…period. You said most people with eyes and a hand (singular) can aim a gun. Yeah, they can aim from the hip too, that doesn’t mean they’ll HIT THE TARGET. Range is also a factor. Aiming with one hand, with little to no experience, from as you said earlier ‘’the other end of the street’’ …here’s the end result… THEY WILL MISS. That was the point, and that is why you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.

You’ve become so defensive that you’re making less and less sense. You’ve lost sight of the topic, and you’re rambling. You don’t even seem to know what an ‘assumption’ is. Go take a nap… and then read more carefully.

hes shooting the person bacause its a debate about guns in responce to the many school shootups in america sigh

Right… again… WHY is he shooting the person?

no because you will never give your reason even though I was right I the place you will just change your answear no matter what I say because thats what all twats do

Oh, assumptions, generalizations, name-calling… your age is showing…

it very much does not prove you right you can only come out wth smart as remarks because you just make things up you talk sht that is the sighn of a defeated man would you like to keep digging

Actually, spouting profanities and juvenile insults is a sign of defeat. You’ve placed such heavy emphasis on ‘winning vs. losing’ …again… such a delicate ego …you again, further prove your shortcomings (inferiority complex). With that in mind, I’M not the one who’ll be banned for my widdle potty mouth, junior…

As you can see your answears are geting shorter and weaker

you dont have clue

Yes… I do. lol lmao no you dont

you just cant prove me wrong

I already did. you havnt proved anythig oldman

prove im wrong

(see previous answer) this is just to easy

this is getting to easy maggot lol

That isn’t even a valid response

Yes it is it once again shows your predicability

I have proven me right and you wrong on numerace things

You’re still lying to yourself… Whatever helps make the situation feel better for yourself

im not an antri gun activist

Regardless, that was your standpoint in this debate

That doesnt make me an activist though old man

I simply wanted some opinions and a debate but with your stubborn old man mind you turned it into something else

More lies… more hypocrisy No your just avoiding the situation by lieing your self

you dont have the slightist little tiny winy bit of controll

In this case, I have ALL of it In this case you have a big fat head and are again lieing to your self

you dont know the differance between fact and opinion I proved my self wright and you wrong once again

WRONG. Learn the difference between ‘evidence’ and ‘PROOF’

WRIGHT go back to school meat head

the information I provided is perfectly understandable toanyone willing to accept

…willing to accept? HAH! Zealot YES accept WA*GKER

it you cant accept that someone younger than you is winning the argument somrthing you have proved yourself to be insecure about

Putting emphasis is on ‘winning vs. losing’ again, hmm? Your widdle ego is showing again… pretty pathetic

NO YOUR PATHETIC YOUR A BAD LOSER BECAUSE THATS WHAT YOU ARE A LOSER. YOU HAVE LESS AND LESS TO SAY FOR YOUR SELF YOUR BRAIN MUST BE EXHAUSTED OLD MAN

people that dont know what there talking about have to repeat their selfs

Generalization… WRONG.

its irrelevant what gun experiance people have any idiot can fire a gun the origianal point

That was YOUR point… and MY point was: just because they can FIRE the gun, doesn’t mean they can HIT THE TARGET. Idiot.

actually a gap between two buildings could be 1ft its still part of the street

You ARE an idiot. You’re desperate, and you’re still WRONG.

not everyone has old frail hands like you like I said before any idiot including you my simple friend you just and here it comes your favourite word ASSUME that the aim will be off proving your ignorance

You need to learn what an ‘assumption’ is…

your unable to make any valid points you cannot even stick with the subject in fact you have yet to make any point whatsoever

…such hypocrisy…

you started the insults by saying I do know what im talking about

…that’s not an insult. You were merely offended because you’re insecure.

outlawing guns would drastically reduce the number of murders as the evidence which I supplied proves

You’ve provided NO evidence that proves ANYTHING. You aren’t thinking objectively. Until you learn to do so, you’ll only be thinking for YOURSELF, not humanity.

very few of these deaths would have occured if guns werent availible

Thanks for making it so easy. If that’s what you think… then you ARE an idiot.

What freedom? We are losing our freedom in fact Obama plans to make bigger gonverment? Are we to lazy to make our own desigions? The last thing we need is an corrupt government taking charge of us. It should be government over people it needs to be people over government.

Ok wow you are taking this way to seriously and that just not cool. You kept making the same point over and over again also so don’t blame everything on me…I’m done talking to you.

As you can see your answears are geting shorter and weaker

…because they’re in response to shorter and weaker statements.

lmao no you dont

Yeah… I do…

you havnt proved anythig oldman

Yeah… I have…

once again shows your predicability

No… It doesn’t…

That doesnt make me an activist though old man

Again… idiot… that (anti-gun) was your stance in the debate, and it was how you started the thread. So you were manipulated as such.

In this case you have a big fat head and are again lieing to your self

Sooo juvenile… sooo pathetic…

WRIGHT go back to school meat head

Go to school TO BEGIN WITH, lumpy…

NO YOUR PATHETIC YOUR A BAD LOSER BECAUSE THATS WHAT YOU ARE A LOSER. YOU HAVE LESS AND LESS TO SAY FOR YOUR SELF YOUR BRAIN MUST BE EXHAUSTED OLD MAN

More emphasis… I’m saying less and less because you’ve said nothing to warrant a proper response. You supply only childish insults. You’ve made it clear that ALL you care about is getting the last word; in your tiny little underdeveloped mind, that makes you feel like a winner… pathetic… keep flailing away… its slightly amusing…

If you don’t believe the Government is corrupt, then you are being naive because the Government is very Corrupt. Oh and you can’t always believe other peoples opinions.

Oh I know the past isn’t always the answer for the Future I think we would be smart enough to learn from the past to make a better Future? Am I wrong?

MAYBE ITS ABIT EXTREAM AN UZI BUT YOU CAN STILL GET SOME PRITTY HEAVY WEAPONS WAY TO HEAVY FOR HUNTING IN SCOTLAND WITHOUT A HUNTING LISENCE ALL YOU CAN GET IS AN .22 AIR RIFFLE AND IM NOT SURE HOW HEAVY WITH ONE BUT THE LAW IS EXTREAMLY STRICT YOU CAN GET DONE WITH A BB GUN IN THE STREETS UNDER THE FIRE ARMS ACT

Well tahts freakin fantastic for Scottland but I do not live in scottland if I wanted to base what I thought was right over Scottlands laws I’d friggin move there! Having the right to bear arms is not only just and fair to the citizens but one of the many things that makes the USA so great and unique.

Nooo! I am saying taking guns would put us in a socialist country keeping them would keep us as a republic with democratic ideals!

PEOPLE SAY THAT GUNS ARE ALSO FOR HUNTING BUT YOU DONT NEED AN UZI TO SHOOT A DEAR THE GUNS FOR SALE IN AMERICA ARE WAY TO HEAVY FOR HUNTING IF THATS THE CASE THAT YOU NEED A GUN FOR HUNTING THEN LAWS COULD PERMIT HUNTERS A CERTAIN CALIBER GUN FOR DOING SO

YES BUT IF GUNS WERENT SO EASILY AVAILIBLE THERE WOULD BE NO TRIGGER TO PULL THIS IS IN RESPONSE TO THE QUESTION SOMEONE GOT SHOT AT MY SCHOOL AND ALSO MY OWN PREVIOUS QUESTION TAKE THE RITE TO CARRY A GUN OUT THE CONSTITUION FEEL FREE TO COMMENT ON IT

Ok so on that note - we should outlaw ropes (because people hang themselves), knives should be outlawed (because people cut themselves), cars should be illegal (too many people die in them), etc. It’s ridiculous, you can’t outlaw something because some people choose to use them improperly and dangerously.

Yes it does, and what is wrong with someone owning and carrying a gun? Guns do not kill people, bad people do. You can’t blame the gun for shooting someone, that gun could not have killed someone without a person pulling the trigger.

YES I THINK LAWS COULD BE STICTER ON KNIVES HIGHER JAIL SENTANCES WUOLD MAKE PEOPLE THINK TWICE ABOUT CARRYING THEM NO BANNING GUNS WOUD NOT STOP KILLINGS BUT DRAMATICLEY REDUCE DEATH SURLEY THATS A GOOD THING

say no to gun?!!?!? lol what those that have to do with the constitution. and I think people lprotect the constitution because its what makes keeps the u.s under peace and no destruction. I agreee with u. things are different now!

Maybe the parents of all these alledgedly dead children should lock their guns up??? Responsibility begins at home…sounds harsh in a Big Brother world…but it’s a fact…

p

listen mate your just repeating what youve already said

Yeah, grown ups have to do that a lot. Otherwise the kids don’t HEAR all of it.

and if you dont know what experiance I’ve had with a gun be it zero or more it doesnt equate to most people well if you dont how can you say it doesent equate tomost people it doent make sence…

It makes perfect sense… you just lack the intelligence to think at the proper level. I’ll make it VERY simple, for your simple, simple brain. Let’s say you have ohhh… 2.2645 hours of actual handgun experience, do you think (and think hard) that the majority of humans on Earth (or in your neighborhood) have the SAME amount of experience as you?

and you dont know what lenghth of street I was talking about a street can be 1ft to many miles long

If its 1ft long… it is NOT a street… and you’re really sounding pathetic…

so if the street wasnt that long say 30ft then the result his he would have killed someone

Not necessarily. If the gunman has little experience, chances are his aim will be off as soon as he begins to squee the trigger. A problem that can be remedied with familiarity with the gun in question, not to mention PRACTICE. You’re still proving your ignorance.

the eyes and hand thing I already explained what I meant

Your explanation was worthless, you only set yourself up for further failure…

I think its pretty self explanitory again are you realy that dumb

I’m guiding your feeble little brain to the EMPHASIS… notice how hard you resist. Care to answer? Or are you desperate to avoid being wrong AGAIN?

whats age got to do with it look at your age and you cant even have a mature convo your the one that started with the assumptions and insults…

Nope.. that was you.

I dident put any enthesis on winning or losing

Yes you did.

I was talking about your lack of being able to make a deasent argument without trying to insult me

Once again, YOU started the insults, junior. And you’ve been avoiding the argument for awhile now. You think GUNS are the problem, I think the PEOPLE are the problem. You’re WRONG. You think outlawing some inanimate object will somehow drastically reduce the number of stupid people doing stupid things (even after quoting Einstein, how ironic). Again… you’re WRONG.

you cant argue with facts

Of course I can… how many of those gun related deaths would’ve STILL happened by OTHER MEANS, if guns weren’t available?

My question is why are you CAP everything you say do you think it gives you more authority or something? Anyhow The Constitution has been a Very important part of History and I believe we should always follow it because it’s not just non-important history it is what made America. We are slowly starting to fall away from the Constitution and things are starting to get worse. sadly we can’t even keep up with the Laws now day because there are over a trillion of them…So basically we are breaking the law everyday…Anyways you need to read the history of the Constitution and the founding Fathers because it has taught me what I know today.

the reason my writing in CAPs was because I was using it for something else and forgot to turn it of not to give me more authority but that is an irelevant point to make I know the constution was made to create the frame work of american law and also to prevent tyranny within america buy such threat dosent exist anymore and whatr would be the problem altering it its already been amended 27 times the past isnt always the answer into the future

You just dont seem to grasp the concept! Your right guns do not alone represent democracy (and by the way we are not a total democracy in true terms we are a republic government with some democratic ideals) however the OPTION to own one does represent a democracy!…Also guns are not always bad somepeople have to hunt for there family to eat without guns they couldnt. Just one of many points(which actually is one of the main reasons for them becoming legal at all it did not all have to do with war.

I dont disagree with you on the bible thing that is bull however what I mean is in A socialist government the first stepp is to take means of protection from your citizens then it goes into tax…If your familuar with Socialism it is basically the people working for the government and the government inturn protecting them by working for the government I mean like in Sweeden for example the citizens are taxed 80%. But back on point before the tax ever goes up they take there means of personal defense therefore the citizens MUST rely on the government.

SAMEEISBORED WHAT DO DO YOU ACTUALLY MEAN BY taking the means of deffense from your citizens is the first step to socialism.AND CHANGING THE CONSTITUTION WOULD NOT TAKE AWAY YOUR DEMOCRACY BUT ENHANCE IT AND MANDYLOO YOU DONT NEED AN UZI TO KILL A DEAR LAWS COULD BE RESTICTED TO PEOPLE WITH A HUNTING LISENCE AND ITS ONLY THE SCARED KIDS WHO SHOOT PEOPLE IT TAKES A WHOLE DIFFERANT PERSON TO STAB SOMEONE AND A PERSON WITH A KNIFE CAN BE STOPED EASIER A QUICKER THAN SOMEONE WITH A GUN AND ALSO KIDS WOULD FIND IT EXTREAMLY DIFFICULT TO GET ILLEGAL GUNS

Well obviously you dont know the laws on firearms. Oozies are illegal to own they are considered an assault weapon, All assault weapons are illegal to anyone outside of the military including oozies, Bazooka’s granade launchers, Assualt rifles(not all rifles just assualt rifles) and it also includes some handguns and certain shotguns. So you are correct you dont need an oozie to hunt and the government has already taken care of that.

Actually I’m not insane at all. I think that people have the right to bear arms. If there weren’t guns - that doesn’t mean that killing would stop, it just means that criminals and crazy people would find another way to kill or get illegal guns.

I don’t think that an entire country should be punished for stupid people wrongly using firearms at all. You can not blame the gun that shot someone - you can only blame the person. Yes, some people get shot on accident, some people also get stabbed on accident - are you going to take all the knives away also?

ITS BIT EXTREAM TO SAY OUTLAW ROPES AND CARS IF SOMEONE WANTS TO END THEIR LIVES THATS A WHOLE DIFFERANT ISSUE AND WHEN PEOPLE DIE IN CARS ITS USUALLY AN ACCIDENT GUNS ARE DESIGHNED SPECIFICLY TO KILL PEOPLE DO YOU NOT FEEL THAT IS ONE SICK INVENTION KIDS SHOOT UP THEIR SCHOOLS TO MY KNOWLEDE THIS HAPPENS WAY TO OFTEN IN AMERICA OUTLAWING GUNS WOULD DRAMATICLAY IMPROVE THIS SITUATION

It does reflect today! As I’ve stated before on things like this taking the means of deffense from your citizens is the first step to socialism. As if you like Obama you must want anyhow but weather You agree with the constitution or not you must agree that taking our democracy away is a horrible idea.

“GUNS ARE DESIGHNED SPECIFICLY TO KILL PEOPLE “

That is SO false. Guns are used for many things, hunting, protection, hobbies, etc. They are not designed to kill people. There are many uses for them.

Outlawing guns would only lead to another thing happening, the kids would either get them illegaly, or they would find a new way to kill people. If a kid is going to kill someone or try and kill people at school, they will find another way of doing it with or without a gun.

You can not punish a whole country because of some idiots.

Are you guys insane? Seriously…

If people weren’t allowed to have guns, BAD people wouldn’t have guns. I realize that some people would still get guns illegally, but it would cut down on gun violence.

As for only “bad” people hurting others with guns–that’s completely untrue. It’s very common for people to accidentally shoot and kill someone.

some statistics

murders by gun 2004

austrailia 56 canada 184 england 73 sweden 37 AMERICA 11 344 total deaths by gun in america 29569 also the same year 81 people died every day

murder by gun 2006

england population 53m deaths 46 newyork population 8m deaths 590

you cant argue with facts

Sure that makes a lot of sense, get rid of the legal gun owners so there are only illegal gun owners. Democracy wont work with criminals go back to school. Are you aware that guns will still be avalible on the black market? Learn how to spell to get your points across better, I can understand a few mispelled words but is your government education really that bad?

Yes, they are designed to kill/maim people and animals. It doesn’t matter if you use it for target practice–it’s DESIGNED to kill.

no problem I respect what you say but it was getn a bit offensive once again thanks for the debate

if you dont think so then why defend having a gun as a freedom

I’m not… you’re being too defensive, and aren’t focused on the REAL issue

I am focused on the real issue that was one of your argument (So you think the government should restrict the freedoms (punish) EVERYONE, for the crimes and/or mistakes of a small percentage of the population?) I am defending my opinion though just as anyone would sorry if it comes across as attacking thats not how I mean it to sound

I AM however, against blaming an inanimate obect, for the mindsets and actions of human beings. The gun is NOT the problem, the PEOPLE are the problem. And taking away guns… will NOT change the people.

ofcourse taking away guns will not change people but with that objcet they become so muchmore deadly

surley you wuold like to live in a world were you can walk the streets with or go to school with minimum chance of getting shot

…as opposed to getting stabbed? Or getting sliced open with a straight-razor? Or getting blugeoned with sticks and rocks? Or getting beaten with bare fists?

think of this situation theres some guy getting bullied hes not got the bottle to get up close and stab punch or anything like that so he finds his dads gun stands at the other end of the street and shoots him its a totaly different mind set if you have to stab someone you have to get up close then theres chance of getting fu*ked up yourself and also if your a victim of of being stabed of punched theres a much higher percentage of survivel

the comeback was an obviouse thing to say becuase everyone knows who einstein is and to say you didnt think he was that smart well you get the point

GUNS HAVE NO PLACE IN A DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY WERES THE DEMOCRACY IN SHOOTING SOMEONE

how are you supposed to know whar experiance I’ve had with a gun ah your just ASSUMING and the thing about aiming it wasnt a lecture on how to hold a gun I was just an example to show you dont have to go to a fireing to fire a gun

I never claimed to know your gun experience, but what I DO know, is that your experience, be it ZERO or more, doesn’t equate to ‘most people’…period. You said most people with eyes and a hand (singular) can aim a gun. Yeah, they can aim from the hip too, that doesn’t mean they’ll HIT THE TARGET. Range is also a factor. Aiming with one hand, with little to no experience, from as you said earlier ‘’the other end of the street’’ …here’s the end result… THEY WILL MISS. That was the point, and that is why you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about

listen mate your just repeating what youve already said and if you dont know what experiance I’ve had with a gun be it zero or more it doesnt equate to most people well if you dont how can you say it doesent equate tomost people it doent make sence and you dont know what lenghth of street I was talking about a street can be 1ft to many miles long so if the street wasnt that long say 30ft then the result his he would have killed someone so it is you who doent know what there talking about and the eyes and hand thing I already explained what I meant are you realy that dumb

You’ve become so defensive that you’re making less and less sense. You’ve lost sight of the topic, and you’re rambling. You don’t even seem to know what an ‘assumption’ is. Go take a nap… and then read more carefully.

your the one who dosent make any sense you pulled the whole convo away from the toipic by your stupid remarks so of course im defensive you cant even make any new pionts maybe you should take a nap and come back when youve actually thought of a question about the actual subjct and not just my opinion of it are you scared to show your own opinion

. hes shooting the person bacause its a debate about guns in responce to the many school shootups in america sigh

Right… again… WHY is he shooting the person?

I think its pretty self explanitory again are you realy that dumb

no because you will never give your reason even though I was right I the place you will just change your answear no matter what I say because thats what all twats do

Oh, assumptions, generalizations, name-calling… your age is showing… whats age got to do with it look at your age and you cant even have a mature convo your the one that started with the assumptions and insults your acting like a 12 yo and I dident put any enthesis on winning or losing I was talking about your lack of being able to make a deasent argument without trying to insult me

SO YOU WOULD BASICALLY LIKE TO LIVE IN AN MILLITARY STATE LOOK WERE IT GOT THE NAZIS

AS FOR THE BIBLE A WHOLE DIFFERANT STORY BUT IT IS ALSO OUT DATED AND a lot OF BULLSHIT

ALSO ITS NOT THE 1700S ANY MORE THERE IS NO STUGGLE FOR FREEDOM SURLEY IT CAN BE CHANGED TO SUIT TODAYS NEEDS

THE CONSTITUTION GIVES PEOPLE THE RITE TO CARRY ARMS

…im aware guns would still be availible on the black market but 14 15 16 year old kids with no money wouldnt be able to get a hold of them…

Oh, you assume FAR too much…

…my goverment has one of the best education systems in the world whats a couple of misspelled words got to do with anything…

That doesn’t mean it works for EVERYONE involved.

as for my points they are clear

…to YOU maybe… but then again, they are coming out of YOUR head.

…its not the parents of the dead kids who need to lock their guns its the parents of the kids killing people…

Actually, ALL the parents should keep their weapons locked away.

sure I agree people should lock up there guns more but they dont

…and who’s fault is that?

there are only two infinite things the universe and human stupity and im not sure about the universe

Did you learn that at school?

listen mate your just repeating what youve already said

Yeah, grown ups have to do that a lot. Otherwise the kids don’t HEAR all of it

people that dont know what there talking about have to repeat their selfs maybe in your old age your getting senile

and if you dont know what experiance I’ve had with a gun be it zero or more it doesnt equate to most people well if you dont how can you say it doesent equate tomost people it doent make sence…

It makes perfect sense… you just lack the intelligence to think at the proper level. I’ll make it VERY simple, for your simple, simple brain. Let’s say you have ohhh… 2.2645 hours of actual handgun experience, do you think (and think hard) that the majority of humans on Earth (or in your neighborhood) have the SAME amount of experience as you?

let me make simple for you old man for your senile brain try not to forget this its irrelevant what gun experiance people have any idiot can fire a gun the origianal point if can you remember even someone as thick as you with little experiance could do it and if you dont know what experiance I have you cant compare it anyone else so no it dosnt makesense or are you ratarted you dont understand

and you dont know what lenghth of street I was talking about a street can be 1ft to many miles long

If its 1ft long… it is NOT a street… and you’re really sounding pathetic…

actually a gap between two buildings could be 1ft its still part of the street therefor yes it CAN be a street is your brain hurting yet I thought so

so if the street wasnt that long say 30ft then the result his he would have killed someone*

Not necessarily. If the gunman has little experience, chances are his aim will be off as soon as he begins to squee the trigger. A problem that can be remedied with familiarity with the gun in question, not to mention PRACTICE. You’re still proving your ignorance

not everyone has old frail hands like you like I said before any idiot including you my simple friend you just and here it comes your favourite word ASSUME that the aim will be off proving your ignorance

the eyes and hand thing I already explained what I meant*

Your explanation was worthless, you only set yourself up for further failure…

no its the senile dementia kicking in again I hate having to repeat my self to old maggots like you

I think its pretty self explanitory again are you realy that dumb

I’m guiding your feeble little brain to the EMPHASIS… notice how hard you resist. Care to answer? Or are you desperate to avoid being wrong AGAIN

I didnt resist you just forgot again are you taking your medication it was very simple to understand but dont let it hurt your head to much

whats age got to do with it look at your age and you cant even have a mature convo your the one that started with the assumptions and insults…*

Nope.. that was you. its geting worse by the minute inform your doctor of your sevear short term memory issues

.

I dident put any enthesis on winning or losing

Yes you did. let me remind you using another of your favourite words I was emphasising that with your continues stupid comments your unable to make any valid points you cannot even stick with the subject in fact you have yet to make any point whatsoever

I was talking about your lack of being able to make a deasent argument without trying to insult me

Once again, YOU started the insults, junior. And you’ve been avoiding the argument for awhile now. You think GUNS are the problem, I think the PEOPLE are the problem. You’re WRONG. You think outlawing some inanimate object will somehow drastically reduce the number of stupid people doing stupid things (even after quoting Einstein, how ironic). Again… you’re WRONG

listen old maggot you started the insults by saying I do know what im talking about well done your first actual opinion but your WRONG outlawing guns would drastically reduce the number of murders as the evidence which I supplied proves you have yet to prove ANYTHING but lets face it your no einstein

you cant argue with facts

Of course I can… how many of those gun related deaths would’ve STILL happened by OTHER MEANS, if guns weren’t available?

even with solid evidence you still avoid the subject like you have been all along get with the programe old man very few of these deaths would have occured if guns werent availible if you had the intelligence would would see your point was made invalid befor you even made it does your ego feel dented yet maybe you should change your name from captain asasin to pritty princess

As you can see your answears are geting shorter and weaker*

…because they’re in response to shorter and weaker statements.

No I squash every argument you make making you answears shoter there for making my statements shorter but stonger

lmao no you dont

Yeah… I do… still lmao no you dont

you havnt proved anythig oldman

Yeah… I have lol ha ha ha ha lmao no you havent

once again shows your predicability

No… It doesn’t yes it does im loving your pathetic three word answears

That doesnt make me an activist though old man

Again… idiot… that (anti-gun) was your stance in the debate, and it was how you started the thread. So you were manipulated as such

Again old man (activist) is not my position that I havent been manipulated if this was my stance all along quite the opposite

In this case you have a big fat head and are again lieing to your self

Sooo juvenile… sooo pathetic… I know you are but what am I lol lmao

WRIGHT go back to school meat head

Go to school TO BEGIN WITH, lumpy… I DID DONWSYNDROME BOY WIPE THE DROWL FROM YOUR CHIN

NO YOUR PATHETIC YOUR A BAD LOSER BECAUSE THATS WHAT YOU ARE A LOSER. YOU HAVE LESS AND LESS TO SAY FOR YOUR SELF YOUR BRAIN MUST BE EXHAUSTED OLD MAN

More emphasis… I’m saying less and less because you’ve said nothing to warrant a proper response. You supply only childish insults. You’ve made it clear that ALL you care about is getting the last word; in your tiny little underdeveloped mind, that makes you feel like a winner… pathetic… keep flailing away… its slightly amusing…

YOUVE BEEN SAYING LESS AND LESS BECAUSE YOU CANT KEEP UP AND ITS YOU TRING TO GET THE LAST WORD YOU CANT GIVE UP YOUR OLD MAN EGO WONT LET YOU THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN PROVE ME WRONG IS TO GO AWAY AND SAY NOTHING YOU ARE EMBARASING YOURSELF YOU PATHETIC ATTEMPTS TO CLAW YOURSELF BACK INTO THIS ARE DWINDLING AND IS EXTREMLY AMUSING

how would you kmow if someone had a gun in there pocket to begin with

…because people talk… people brag… people gossip… word gets around. If a young boy is known for carrying a gun, eventually, someone who WANTS a gun of their own, will find out. And they may or may not act on it. Its pretty simple.

if you dont think so then why defend having a gun as a freedom

I’m not… you’re being too defensive, and aren’t focused on the REAL issue.

well your evidence for having a gun isnt any better than mine for not having a gun in fact you havent even giving any your just asking quetions about my opinion

I’m not pro-arms, nor am I against it. I AM however, against blaming an inanimate obect, for the mindsets and actions of human beings. The gun is NOT the problem, the PEOPLE are the problem. And taking away guns… will NOT change the people.

surley you wuold like to live in a world were you can walk the streets with or go to school with minimum chance of getting shot

…as opposed to getting stabbed? Or getting sliced open with a straight-razor? Or getting blugeoned with sticks and rocks? Or getting beaten with bare fists?

and the comeback you can tell it was immediate it wasnt very good it was quite predictable

…think so? If it was predictable, then explain why I said it.

you dont have clue

Yes… I do.

you just cant prove me wrong

I already did.

prove im wrong

(see previous answer)

this is getting to easy maggot lol

That isn’t even a valid response.

I have proven me right and you wrong on numerace things

You’re still lying to yourself…

im not an antri gun activist

Regardless, that was your standpoint in this debate.

I simply wanted some opinions and a debate but with your stubborn old man mind you turned it into something else

More lies… more hypocrisy…

you dont have the slightist little tiny winy bit of controll

In this case, I have ALL of it.

you dont know the differance between fact and opinion I proved my self wright and you wrong once again

WRONG. Learn the difference between ‘evidence’ and ‘PROOF’

the information I provided is perfectly understandable toanyone willing to accept

…willing to accept? HAH! Zealot.

it you cant accept that someone younger than you is winning the argument somrthing you have proved yourself to be insecure about

Putting emphasis is on ‘winning vs. losing’ again, hmm? Your widdle ego is showing again… pretty pathetic…

you dont need target practice to hit someone most people with eyes and a hand can aim a gun

Okay… you have NO IDEA what you’re talking about.

I disagree its is a differant mind set like I said before getting up close to someone and and having to face them espcially if there scared of the person in the case of the hypothetical guy it would be easier to shoot them

The mindset is the SAME. MURDER. I WANT TO KILL THAT PERSON. THAT is the mindset. HOW he acheives it… is only a means to an end. You seem to think that if he wanted to murder a person, the absence of a gun would make him decide NOT to murder. Its foolish to assume that. Before guns existed, if someone decided to murder, they DID IT. And now, in a country where guns are (hypothetical) IMPOSSIBLE to attain, if someone decides to murder… they’ll STILL do it.

just because someone has murderd someone it dosent make them a cold blooded murderer

Right… in this hypothetical case, you can add ‘premeditated’ to that title. Killing someone for the sole purpose of wanting them DEAD… that IS cold-blooded.

as for the einstein thing you no im right it dosent matter what im going to say your just going to say something different

You’re just assuming… like before… WRONG by default. You’ve become so defensive, you’ve started LYING to yourself, in attempt to shelter your ego. By your comments thus far (in this thread, and on other members profiles) you’ve made yourself out to be insecure, paranoid, with a mild inferiority complex. But I’ve come to expect that from people in your age bracket.

In the end, your shortcomings have save me from typing a lengthy post about relativity, the universe, and the logical and philosophical limits of the human mind.

no I dont assume I know countrys were guns are illegal like were I come from to get a gun on the black market would cost thousands

They can simply start STEALING, to make the money necessary to purchase a gun. They can also join a gang, and get a weapon as part of their membership. Or they can walk up to someone who has a gun, and STAB them… there is always a way.

its the parents fault but their not willing to take responcibility so the goverment should thats what their there for

So you think the government should restrict the freedoms (punish) EVERYONE, for the crimes and/or mistakes of a small percentage of the population?

I think it would be fair instead, to FORCE the parents involved, to take responsibility for their irresponsibility. And make gun safes MANDATORY, for homes with children.

No atually its a quote from albert einstein

Hmmm… I thought he was smarter than that… but then again, its nice to know he had a sense of humor.

For one it is very hard typing everything I want to say on an iPod Touch. Anyways your questions was why is Americans so protective of the constitution, I think I gave you Valid answers and Guns I’m more then just Pro-guns I’m Super Pro Guns…I think people now day are getting fed to much crap from the media and don’t know how to think for them self’s.

serinaty your right we can make a better future based on yhe past but thats not always the the case society has changed so much in 300 years even the founding fathers would have differant opinions of the constitution today also phrannie you live in one of the freeist countrys in the world every country needs laws its for the good of society think if you lived under the rule of saddam hussain there is no comaparasin so your point is invalid

Well as far as that goes my bad I thought you lived in the US and I do not restrain myselff to one political party either I actueally agree with the democrats on certain issues but dont believe they can run a country well. As for thinking the US runs the world oh trust me I dont I simply think my country is a great country. I would also give my opinions even if it was to be the death of me, and I would just like to really state the fact that I am not held to one party I make my mind up on every dissision not any one or any political party.

does it matter were the information comes from 100s of school kids die every year that should be enough information to make you think twice peoples lifes get destroyed we only get one and far to many are taken by by guns if you do not value the sanctity of human life inocent kids if you would rather see them die because you dont want to live without a gun I find this selfish ignorant and and of low moral standing

not as much as you make it out to be and whos opinion am I beliving your comments dont even make sense anymore

the usa isnt so fantastic and unique I was only saying the right to bear arms isnt just an fair its a fu*kn disgrace to humanity the fact you have the right to bear arms isnt wot makes america america your so brain wasshed with patriotic pride you cant make a judgement for the good of the human race

the usa gives me no rights my country gives me my rights to run my fu*kin mouth regardless of what america gives there citizens why do you think america rules the world they dont and yes people do kill people but people kill hundreds of people in a matter of minutes with guns and I think millions of lives are more precious than millions dollars as for being a liberal I dont hold my self on just one pollitical stance I have many opinions I will give them even if it means the death of me maybe youre the one who should be more mature and realistic and not just believe the views given to you by one political ideology

Ok so does that mean we should out law cars too? that takes a lot more life then guns. Oh by the way Guns do save people too, it’s just usually people like to see that bad things about guns. Yes that’s another true statement phrannie, if people locked there guns up maybe less mistakes would happen.

Oh it’s the government job to make our decisions? That’s retarded because we are the ones who are responsible for our own actions, and saying that I’m an idiot doesn’t solve anything.

Why? What do guns harm? The counstitution is a HUGE part of American history and the rights in it are very important and what our country was founded on.

just because something is old doesn’t make it wrong or non-applicable. examples: the bible, the writings of willliam shakspeare, etc.

Yea and I respect what you say and again sorry I thought you lived here. Sorry to be offensive but you were a bit offensive too. lol. and yea thanx to you too.

The Constitution is the foundation of what the USA was built upon…the right to bear arms is but one small part of it…Dropping something (or ANYTHING) out of the Constitution should be something we think long and hard about…if it happens one time, it will happen again…and then again…and the freedom we all appreciate so much will begin erode…The massive law passing of the last 20 years has eaten away at the freedom we have now.

people that dont know what there talking about have to repeat their selfs*

Generalization… WRONG.

No its not a generalization you actualy dont have a clue your talking about your just so aragont you think you have the aswear to every thing your an IDIOT

its irrelevant what gun experiance people have any idiot can fire a gun the origianal point *

That was YOUR point… and MY point was: just because they can FIRE the gun, doesn’t mean they can HIT THE TARGET. Idiot.

NO my point was any idiot including you could fir a gun even with your frail old hands could pull the trigger and hit the target. your realy not very good this maggot

actually a gap between two buildings could be 1ft its still part of the street

You ARE an idiot. You’re desperate, and you’re still WRONG

No im right I worked on building sites for three years I know this fo a fact you on the other hand you being a middle class twat boy has never had to do real days graft in your life so you wouldnt know your an idiot

not everyone has old frail hands like you like I said before any idiot including you my simple friend you just and here it comes your favourite word ASSUME that the aim will be off proving your ignorance

You need to learn what an ‘assumption’ is… No you need to learn what an assumption is you assume the aim will be off even though you have NOTHING to PROVE a single word you say you just say its a fact which further shows your arogance

your unable to make any valid points you cannot even stick with the subject in fact you have yet to make any point whatsoever

…such hypocrisy No once again old man maggot you are WRONG I have given evidence I can PROVE what isay you however CANNOT PROVE anything you say

you started the insults by saying I do know what im talking about

…that’s not an insult. You were merely offended because you’re insecure.

It is an insult your just so arogant you cant see why you just cant take it that someone else is talking back to you and theres not a single thing you can do about it is there old man you cant leave this alone because your frail old man ego wont let you. you maggot are the one thats insecure

outlawing guns would drastically reduce the number of murders as the evidence which I supplied proves

You’ve provided NO evidence that proves ANYTHING. You aren’t thinking objectively. Until you learn to do so, you’ll only be thinking for YOURSELF, not humanity

No hears why it proves my point with guns being banned in all of the stated places there are considderably less murders even if you look at the murder statistics as a whole and not just gun murders it tells the same story even with knives and other weapons availible these places have less murders because guns are illegal once again proving you ignorant and arogant

very few of these deaths would have occured if guns werent availible

Thanks for making it so easy. If that’s what you think… then you ARE an idiot

once again you have avoided having to prove anything you just ramble empty words with no real substance because you CANT PROVE IT YOU MAKING IT EASY ON YOUR SELF BECAUSE YOUR AN IDIOT

I disagree obamas goverment will be amillion times better for america than bush you hve just got rid of your corrupt goverment and if it was people over goverment america woulf=d still be in the middle ages in fact a lot of opinions I’ve heard from some americans stem from the middle ages