More than one way to heavan?

Eternallife, I am very thankful for the effort you have put in your msg to me. I am full of admiration to the power of your faith.

But, my friend, you just started it :D and now deal with it :P lolz

(While you are reading, please keep reminding yourself that I respect you, your religion and your views.)

1- “Jesus is GOD and this can be understood by studying the Bible.”

Exactly. I’d never understand that Jesus is God unless I study The Noble Bible. If I don’t read The Noble Bible, it will never hit me that Jesus is God.

Truth is not something to be told by a person or by a book. Truth is something to be known, explored and CONCLUDED, not to be spoon-fed.

Was there anything inside your mind or heart that ever told you that Jesus is God? In my mind and heart, God is God and Jesus is a person.

2- “God himself I.e. His character, His love for us, and His purpose for creating us, cannot be seen through nature.”

I can see God everywhere in nature.. I mean everywhere. I can see His character in the various laws of physics, chemistry and molecular biology. I can see His love to me in the beauty of nature.. every single detail of it. I can see His purpose in the different stages of human history.

3- “Man is born with a sin nature. That is in his very nature there is a tendency to sin. “

Being born with a sin nature and having a tendency to sin are 2 different things. I want to sin, but that does not mean I was born a sinner. Now as I am 21 years old, I must ask God to forgive me for everything bad I have done, but when I was one day old, I didn’t ask for forgiveness ‘cause by that time, I hadn’t done anything wrong, I wasn’t a sinner yet, I was clean. I can’t imagine why I should ask God for forgiveness for the very nature He Himself created me with.

4- “He was created perfect and was given free will. He was given the the choice. He could choose live obeying God and live in his perfect condition or he could choose to sin and fall his perfect condition.”

This is STILL true. Nothing changed. Why do you have to put it in the past tense?

5- “Man made the wrong choice and as a result fell from his perfect condition. Now we are born with a sin nature. So all us will sin.”

Do you mean that the actions of God are no more than mere reactions? Humanbeings have the choice and God only reacts to what they choose?

Nonetheless, what do you mean by man? I am man, you are man. When did you and I make the wrong choice? and what does this wrong choice has to do with the way God created us? I mean God created us THEN we made the wrong choice, right? I can’t think of any other sequence.

6- “Another issue is that when we live in this place we are actually dwelling temporarily. After this life we have a permanent life (eternal) and we have choose where we are going to spend it. Anyone who thinks this life is all there is making a terrible mistake. And to spend the eternity with God we need to be righteous in His sight.”

I agree.

7- “So we need to be save from our sins. So we need this salvation weather we like it or not, weather it is depressing or not.”

I do not agree. I can’t accept something that I don’t like. God is beautiful and so is the truth I ought to accept.

Why should I believe in something that’s depressing? Isn’t this world full of depression already? Religion should exist to remove such depression not to increase it.

8- “Also since we cannot live without sinning and since we have already committed a lot of sins in the past it implies that we cannot not save ourselves. That is not possible and that is the real problem.”

What about learn from our mistakes? After we sin, we realize our mistake and make sure we do not repeat it in the future. This is one of the things that keep humanity going, not something we need to be saved from.

9- “Since in this position we are helpless God has to himself provide us a solution. God’s provision for us is Jesus Christ.”

We are not helpless.

But let’s assume we were..

1. God created helpless creatures.
2. God sent Jesus to help helpless creatures be saved.
3. Helpless creatures are saved and now they are in Heaven.

That’s it? What under sun can seem more passive?? Isn’t there any rule for us to play? I only have to believe in Jesus Christ and I am fine?

You are free to believe that we are helpless no matter how much that offends me and millions of other humanbeing who think they are not helpless, but I believe we, armed with the gift of reason, are powerful and effective.

10- “Since we are born with a sin nature, we sin and we loose our life with God in eternity. The loss has to be paid with life. Thus Jesus paid for our sins by giving his life. “

I feel the need to repeat myself..

“If someone has to ‘save’ me, then this someone should be ME not Jesus.

How come am I forgiven just ‘cause Jesus died for me? I didn’t tell Jesus to die for me. By the time he died, I hadn’t commited any sins. I wasn’t even born. I don’t understand what Jesus’ death has to do with my sins. Why should he pay for my mistakes? and why should he pay for my mistakes through humiliation, crucifiction and death? This is too unfair to be true.

Only I should pay for my own mistakes, while Jesus should take care of his.

Our humanity is not anything to be ashamed of, saved from, feel bad about or forgiven for. It’s not a sin. We were NOT born sinners. We sin after we are born and that is our nature. There’s no point in seeing humanbeings as things which are so bad that God must do some incarnation in order for them to be good and ‘purified’.We have brains, we can take care of ourselves.”

11- “The important thing is that God lives outside of time and therefore we may not be able understand fully how he is able to pay for our sins in the past.”

Here is what you are saying to me.. “Don’t worry, Noblez, God paid for the sins you made 3 million years ago!”

I did NOT sin before I was born! Before I was born, I wasn’t there to commit any sin!

God doesn’t pay for our sins, God forgives us for making them.

We agree about the fact that God is beyond time.

12- “This is the truth but I many will not accept any of this. But reality is not affected by our belief or non-belief of it. Reality is not changed by our accepting or not accepting it. So weather we believe it or not, weather we like it or not, weather we accept it or not truth is truth.”

I do not understand how that helps your point.

It only helps mine.

13- “One may not be able to provide evidences for it due to various reasons, but that does not change the fact.”

It does not change the fact, but it does change the number of those who are ready to believe it.

Enough evidence is a part of “important” facts. God wouldn’t punish those who did not believe in Him if there was not much evidence that He exists in the 1st place.

14- “For example if I saw a picture in the sky yesterday night but am not able to provide evidences for it does it change the fact. I might not have had proper cameras to take photos and the image could have disappeared by the time I called someones attention to it. Due to lack of evidence people may not believe what I say but that still does not change the fact that I saw it.”

Why should I believe that? If I do, how am I supposed to make my friends believe it? How are my friends supposed to tell theirs?

I dunno if you have the same thing, but there’s something in my mind that makes it quite hard for me to believe anything that’s not proven.

I was born with this thing.

Now how come the same God who has given me the ability to reason and analyze tells me to believe in facts with which reason and analysis don’t work?

• “It’s not that Christianity doesn’t respect humanity, it’s that Christianity doesn’t understand humanity

Well I guess it is the other way around. Humanity does not understand Christianity.”

That’s right. Islam is the true Christianity.

Keep your head high up Greetings from Egypt! Noblez Chavazelle

Captainassassin, why on earth do you have to be so mean?? Disagreeing with someone does not give you the right to be any rude to them.

Yes, it does… you haven’t been here long enough to read many of the idiotic things she’s said.

It’s easy to notice - across this thread - that I don’t agree with Eternallife, either. But, unlike you, he/she knows how to disagree without having to disrespect anybody.

Again, you haven’t been aroung long enough to know what’s been said in the past.

I am a law student, and I tell you if I state something half as wrong as your statement, I am kicked out of law school.

That’s because you’re just READING it IMPROPERLY… like you said…

You do not go to prison ‘cause this is what the judge wants! You go to prison ‘cause you have made a crime. This is the reason why the punishment, like you mentioned, fits the CRIME.

…and being sent to Hell INFINITELY, for a FINITE amount of sin, is a punishment that does NOT fit the crime. If this is God’s law, HE IS RESPONSIBLE for making his law unfair, and HE IS RESPONSIBLE for this excessive, cruel and unusual form punishment.

What I am explaining to you here is the abc of law.

The only thing you’re explaining is that eternallife should’ve NEVER compared God to a court judge in the first place. Because there IS NO COMPARISON. Law is meaningless without individuals who take the responsibility to ESTABLISH it, REGULATE it, and ENFORCE it.

Maybe you, my friend, should try again.. I suggest you learn something from Eternallife.

I’ve learned she’s delusional… Aside from that, she has nothing to offer than I don’t already know… and know better.

Every man women and child will at some point in their lives (even at the moment of death) have an epiphany”vision of life with or without love forever” When you die, you are asleep as it where until a thousand year millennium beginning with Christ’s return has past. Hell is for the devil and his minion and where evil is consumed in the lake of fire, but Heaven and Hell as most suppose aren’t even prepared until the earth is restored and inhabited by us. Jesus Christ Himself will reign as king of all the earth for 1,000 years from His throne in Jerusalem (Rev. 20:4-6). Only after judgment will the “new heaven” be somewhere to set up homesteads. lol. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:2 When Christ alluded to mansions, He was referring to planets. My Father’s house means universe. First G-d created “the heavens” then the earth. If we live to see His imminent return, WE STAY PUT! A thousand years is only a day for Him, but nobody is going anywhere. We will however be transformed to be like Him. Immortal. At last. Gosh utopia I’m not sure whether to feel theirs hope for us Christians in your book or not. All blessings

Captainassassin, why on earth do you have to be so mean?? Disagreeing with someone does not give you the right to be any rude to them.

It’s easy to notice - across this thread - that I don’t agree with Eternallife, either. But, unlike you, he/she knows how to disagree without having to disrespect anybody.

Now lemme answer you in a language you decided to use..

• “Yes… he does… and there’s no ‘proper’ way to read your posts, when they’re WRONG to begin with.”

I believe it is not the hardest task in the world to understand that the way you read something is one thing and the rightness of that thing is quite another. You may improperly read something that’s right, and properly read something that’s wrong. HOW you read it is what is concerned here.

• “The judge and jury SENTENCE him… the same as sending him. Also in a court of law, the punishment FITS the crime. Try again.”

I am a law student, and I tell you if I state something half as wrong as your statement, I am kicked out of law school.

You do not go to prison ‘cause this is what the judge wants! You go to prison ‘cause you have made a crime. This is the reason why the punishment, like you mentioned, fits the CRIME. Your punishment doesn’t and mustn’t change according to how much the judge loves or hates you. The judge only applies the law, and law itself exists only to make sure you are punished for YOUR OWN CRIMES.

What I am explaining to you here is the abc of law.

Maybe you, my friend, should try again.. I suggest you learn something from Eternallife.

Noblez Chavazelle

For those who have read my posts properly God does not SEND anyone to hell. If a person who has not heard of Jesus ends up in hell it is because of his sin.

Yes… he does… and there’s no ‘proper’ way to read your posts, when they’re WRONG to begin with.

The only way to get to heaven is if our sins are washed off us and only Jesus can do that.

We’ve already gone over this. This concept has gaping holes that you can’t fill… as usual. Such a claim exludes part of the global population. You’ve yet to provide an intelligent answer to this problem.

In the court of law if a man is condemned to death is the judge responsible for his death? No.

The judge and jury SENTENCE him… to community service, they send him to prison, they send him to death row, depending on the crimes. Also in a court of law, the punishment can be no greater than the crime. Try again.

Its a misconception that God is the one sending people to hell. Yes God is a loving person and would never send anyone to hell. But God does not sit there and say “you have lived a good life so you go to heaven and you are bad so you go to hell”. No God does not send anybody to hell.

This is how things are. Man is born with a sin nature. That is in his very nature there is a tendency to sin. Man was not created that way. He was created perfect and was given free will. He was given the the choice. He could choose live obeying God and live in his perfect condition or he could choose to sin and fall his perfect condition. Man made the wrong choice and as a result fell from his perfect condition. Now we are born with a sin nature. So all us will sin.

Another issue is that when we live in this place we are actually dwelling temporarily. After this life we have a permanent life (eternal) and we have choose where we are going to spend it. Anyone who thinks this life is all there is making a terrible mistake. And to spend the eternity with God we need to be righteous in His sight. Now we arrive at a problem here. We need to be righteous but we are born with a sin nature which means we cannot but sin. So we need to be save from our sins.

Since in this position we are helpless God has to himself provide us a solution. God’s provision for us is Jesus Christ who paid for our sins by giving his life.

So yes there is only one way.

nobliano

I have given a more detailed reply to your argument here

http://www.funadvice.com/q/bible_jesus_god

Some Christians I’ve known have said I’d go to heaven, after hearing a long & drawn out explanation of my beliefs…

…however, others have claimed I’d end up in hell. Neither statement or condemnation will shake the faith I hold to, however, I do hope that eventually, people of all belief systems understand and embrace the fact that we can all have our own faith and belief…and respect those who believe differently.

From what I’ve seen, here…well, it’s hard to imagine such a day. But, as they say, hope springs eternal.

Its a misconception that God is the one sending people to hell.

His book, his rules, HE is doing the judging, HE is doing the sending. Can you find scripture that say we have some magical powers that transport us to heaven or hell when we die? No.

Yes God is a loving person and would never send anyone to hell. But God does not sit there and say “you have lived a good life so you go to heaven and you are bad so you go to hell”. No God does not send anybody to hell.

God isn’t a person. God is god. You don’t know god, so you also don’t know what he would or wouldn’t do. Quit trying to make up excuses for the plot holes in Christianity; like all the other times, these holes are too big for you to fill.

IF he was so loving and benevolent, (1) he won’t punish people infinitely for a FINITE amount of sin. (2) he won’t send people to hell who [A] haven’t heard of Jesus or Christianity, or [B] people that don’t follow Christianity because it has been misrepresented by other followers who are (apparently) supposed to spread the message. Which would mean that Christianity is NOT the ONLY way.

I had a friend years ago who told me that he believed that ‘God’ loves all his children, and while there was a hell, ‘God’ would never send his children there, because he loves them too much.

The grandmother of one of my childhood friends lived on the end of my street, spending most of her days in prayer. When my friend’s older bother came out as gay, she simply said that ‘God’ had made him that way, and had done so for a reason. She also said that no matter what, ‘God’ loved him, and she too loved him for the person he was.

My mother is Catholic (not practising, but still considers herself one), and she is of the mind that it’s not all about following every rule in ‘the book’ (Bible/Q’ran/Torah), it’s about being a good person in your heart, and doing/intending no harm. My parents taught me that faith is personal, and while they had theirs, it was up to me to choose my own path.

None of these people have ever told me that my atheism means I will burn in hell. These people have been nothing but kind, loving, and tolerant.

its ditto to the athiests.

You’re assuming people who argue against fundamentalist Christians are atheist. Newsflash- not all of them are.

I have a lovely christian friend who shared that she always felt “no man cometh unto the Father but by me” meant that jesus would be the final decision maker..through me, like a gate…She has never felt that heaven was a place reserved for only christians. She feels that G-d is loving and wants as many of His creations with him for eternity, not cast into hell. In fact she feels that hell is reserved for “special” sinners not good, decent people who just don’t believe, that Christ would know their hearts. Oh, I forgot to mention, she is the Pastor of a rather large Presbyterian church in Texas. She is sweet and kind, intelligent and witty, loving and caring. Everything that a believer or non-believer should be. Everything that a human should be.

I have NEVER heard her utter one word of judgment about anyone… She has NEVER tried to convert me… She has NEVER shown me or my faith anything but love… She has NEVER told me that I was going to hell…

We have been friends since our childhood…Her parents were the same.

So, it IS possible to be a christian and still be sweet and kind, intelligent and witty, loving and caring AND non-judgmental…

quite a far cry from some of the fundamentalist christians on this site…

I was raised in a strictly Christian environment (Southern Baptist, to be precise), and I was always told that only those who accepted Christ as their Savior would be allowed into Heaven. None of that ever made sense to me, though. There are many religions out there who worship the same God, and they all have their own ways of showing that, and their own beliefs about the methods of gaining entrance into Heaven.

People may lead different lives or have differing beliefs, but I honestly believe that God is forgiving and merciful. The Bible states that Hell was never meant for God’s Children, which also leads me to believe that Heaven isn’t as difficult to get into as many would have us believe today. I think that if you truly believe in God and the mercy he has shown us since our creation, then you will be granted entrance into Heaven. God doesn’t hate, and condemning everyone who isn’t a Christian would be hate if I ever saw it. Where would everyone who passed away before Christianity was established be? The truth is, the religions that formed as a result of teachings God gave to us have split and evolved so many times that there can’t possibly be one single religion that is “right”.

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6 I think that there is only one way to heaven, through Christ. But none of us know, only God knows. But if some people only do what the old testament says, aren’t they disobeying God? So maybe they will go to heaven, but Christians will get more when God judges us.

eterrnallife…”So yes there is only one way.”

False. All the people who never heard of Jesus weren’t automatically condemned to hell, RIGHT?

:)

So…I’m OK with my belief system, unless of course, just because you were born in the wrong part of the world, you’re doomed for eternity. To me, that smacks of being a right prick move if God would do that ;)

I don’t think you should ‘’flash’’ anything in front of her. She’s like a deer in the headlights when it comes to this kind of information… O___O

quite a far cry from some of the fundamentalist christians on this site…

its ditto to the athiests.

Jesus said: “I am ‘THE WAY’, the truth, the light…no man cometh unto the Father but by me”…also “not of works lest any man should boast”.

For those who have read my posts properly God does not SEND anyone to hell. If a person who has not heard of Jesus ends up in hell it is because of his sin. The only way to get to heaven is if our sins are washed off us and only Jesus can do that.

In the court of law if a man is condemned to death is the judge responsible for his death? No. The man committed a crime and that is why he is punished that way. Neither does his not knowing the law excuse him. If you parked your car in a no parking zone and are fined would you be excused if you say that you did not know that it was a no parking zone? So let me repeat GOD DOES NOT SEND ANYONE TO HELL.

To me, the belief that only thru taking Jesus as your savior, as the only ticket to heaven is arrogant and elitist…It simply leaves to many people with a different prophet out of the equation. I’m not convinced there was only ONE prophet…and since each of the “other” prophets lead to God (albet the details…the rules… of getting to Him…maybe different)…the end result is the same…enternal life.

p

I believe there is more than one way into heaven, if it exists. I’m not a Christian and I don’t believe the bible to be much more than an ancient book with some self help sections and common sense ideas for living like a decent human being. I do believe in God, and I see him as a fair and merciful God. I just can’t except the fact that if I am not a baptized, church going, bible thumping Christian that I am going to burn in hell, if it exists. After I die, I believe I will either be reincarnated, worm food or heaven bound, depending on what’s in store for every decent person after they die, regardless of their religious beliefs. I have and will continue to live my life as a good person, because that’s what I think is right, not because I am afraid to go to hell. In the eyes of my God, that is all that matters.

I agree, for me its not the colour of your faith its the faith itself that is important. If someone believes in the principles and teachings of god be it through Jesus or some other spiritual icon then ultimately the amount to the same outcome and destination. It surely is beneficial this way because if only one flavour of the path and way allowed then gods reach would be very limited to a select few who were in my opinion on the fanatical extreme side of the interpretation and practice of the bible. We all have a responsibility to do what we beleive in, in our own way, yes ?

So maybe they will go to heaven, but Christians will get more when God judges us.

…get more what?

Good deeds are the only way to Heaven. You are good in life, you go to Heaven after you die. You are bad, you go to Hell. End of story.

I believe in Jesus and I love him, but no, sir, he is not the only way to Heaven.

Jesus is a prophet, not a God. God is so revealed through nature He doesn’t need to take the shape of one of His creatures. He is already inside every one of us. Trinity is too complicated to be true. Science should replace it if we really wish to see a clearer image of God.

It’s very depressing how we still believe that we must be “saved”. Saved from what? This world belongs to us. We should try and make it better not wish we are saved from it.

If someone has to “save” me, then this someone should be ME not Jesus.

How come am I forgiven just ‘cause Jesus died for me? I didn’t tell Jesus to die for me. By the time he died, I hadn’t commited any sins. I wasn’t even born. I don’t understand what Jesus’ death has to do with my sins. Why should he pay for my mistakes? and why should he pay for my mistakes through humiliation, crucifiction and death? This is too unfair to be true.

Only I should pay for my own mistakes, while Jesus should take care of his.

Our humanity is not anything to be ashamed of, saved from, feel bad about or forgiven for. It’s not a sin. We were NOT born sinners. We sin after we are born and that is our nature. There’s no point in seeing humanbeings as things which are so bad that God must do some incarnation in order for them to be good and “purified”.We have brains, we can take care of ourselves.

We need Jesus as a prophet, not as a son of God.

Christianity is full of love and peace. You are lucky if your best friend is Christian. It’s not that Christianity doesn’t respect humanity, it’s that Christianity doesn’t understand humanity.

Keep your head high up Greetings from Egypt!

Noblez Chavazelle