God's "mercy"

“How many prophecies need proved over and over and seen by many folks before us came true”

Er, how about any? It’s really easy to make prophecies for things that have already happened. Much harder to predict in detail something that hasn’t happened yet - something nobody has actually done.

God died for YOU, its YOUR choice to not to accpet him, God DOESN send you, YOU send YOURSELF there. once again its YOUR choice, YOU decide where your going to spend, God gave you a decision and choice, you choose. it isn his fault where you end up at, only yours and yours only.

How could I knowingly NOT introduce someone to Jesus who is standing beside me if I had the chance to and didn’t.

There are so many many multiple attestations of our Lord that for me to not say anything, I would rather die than tread water in my ministry!

I have two uncle’s that are pastors and the have their own churches in VA. my grampa is a deacon, and everyone in my family are into the church. I have asked, and they couldn’t give me acceptable answers

No, I am a very open-minded person. I am not condemning faith in God. I just want to understand that faith. I asked a question just before this one that proves that

That’s why He offers the free gift of Salvation - He loved us enough to make a WAY, Jesus, to spend eternity in Heaven (John 3 : 16)…He didn’t have to - that’s REAL mercy !!

hmmm…me too…well..the devil is a fallen angel named lucifer…who is trying to prove god wrong…god isn’t the cause of humans’ suffering…we are…god lets us make our own decisions…people…in general..make poor ones.

A human being suffered briefly and died. It was over. That is supposed to be a reason for what I described to be allowed to happen? I’m not trying to argue with you, I just want to understand

he died for our sins

Everyone is responsible for the fruit he gets or the crop he harvests so God created this world for us to worship him and he rewards the one who do this.

If God says there will be fiery hailstones as big as bushel baskets, then there will be. If He said there will be a bow to show no more complete flooding, there is. If He said there will be a man coming riding on a white horse in glory just as he left, there will be. How many prophecies need proved over and over and seen by many folks before us came true, that we are so hardened that NO WAY is the answer? It is because biblical leadership in the home wasn’t initiated while we were still in the womb.

The bible isn’t “very specific” about that at all: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/interp/hell.html

One view is that the unsaved are consumed and cease to exist.

This is actually what we believe in my religion. (and I’m christian) When you die you are simply dead. No torture or anything. In the bible the word for hell is hades or sheol, and this is just the common grave. Not eternal torture or anything. It’s a misinterpretation of the word. There’s a lot more to it than that, but ya…

“Hell was never intended for us, it was intended for satan. and his angels. when adam and eve sinned that changed things. so for thousands of years people sinned and they sinned a lot.”

You say it like your god had no choice over this. However you want to frame it, if you’re omnipotent and omniscient, you’re responsible for any suffering you don’t alleviate.

Well, yeah, they probably would be. They might even be less friendly towards me. But they certainly wouldn’t decide that they needed to torture me for not accepting the gift, and I would expect better from an all-powerful all-knowing ‘compassionate’ god, not worse.

Besides, when someone offers me a gift, it’s pretty easy to tell. In contrast, the evidence for your religion is, well, absent. If it’s so vitally important that we all get with the programme, why isn’t there any actual evidence? If I was created by your god, he created me rational, with the power to learn by deduction and form a reasoned view of the world, so why would he want me to suspend that to believe in him?

Scripture was given in order that it would point us in the path of righteousness. If people would take the care and time to really study God’s word they would be less likely to argue about the meaning as it is quite easy to understand. Scripture is often misused to emphasize a particular point of view when in fact it was what was never meant. I’m not claiming to be right but I am saying that proper care and diligent scripture reading will provide a more concise and correct view of the meaning intended. The judgement for Christians won’t be for hellfire but for rewards of obedience and disobedience. Lastly, if you didn’t accept the gift would they not be hurt? If they paid a tidy sum for the gift and you disregard it and throw it in their face, so to speak, would they not be hurt then? Much the same way God feels when we, His most precious creation, turn our backs and shake our fists at Him. He will never stop loving us and trying to show Himself faithful to us so that we would turn to Him in faith. His love for us is so strong and He puts people in our paths to show us that, if only we cared to look. Sure, many people flub it up. We are still human and royally screw up too. But my heart is much like God’s in that I too wish that all humanity would turn to Him. But it’s a choice only the individual can make and I respect that.

“This is why it is so important to read the entire passage, before and after chapters, cross reference with other parts of scripture so that the meaning doesn’t become muddied.”

This is very convenient, because it lets you claim everyone else is wrong because they didn’t get the right ‘interpretation’. Given that the Bible is supposed to be the inerrant word of god, how do you square that with no two people agreeing on what it says in the first place?

“Don’t forget that we Christians too will be judged.”

I’m sure that’s very comforting for the vast majority of humanity that your god has apparrently consigned to eternal torture.

“Well we, at those who celebrate, were given a present. We did nothing to earn it as it was given to us freely by the one who gave it. It did cost the person who gave it to you though. All we needed to do was accept the free gift to us.”

My friends and relatives don’t threaten to torture me if I don’t accept their gifts, though.

Scrpiture says we are to, “rightly divide the word of truth”, and many people especially proclaiming Christians do it. Primarily because they will read a portion of scripture and use it to make a point that they are trying to say and not what the passage really means. This is why it is so important to read the entire passage, before and after chapters, cross reference with other parts of scripture so that the meaning doesn’t become muddied. Most people do not take the time to do this and their understanding and application of scripture becomes off. I’m sorry if people take His word and throw it at non believers as a weapon instead of using it as it was intended, for instruction. Yes, there have been and still are, and will continue to be, people who will rip scripture out of context misquoting and misusing God’s word which is why reading contexually is so vital to become fully understanding. People don’t care how much you know, until they know how much you care. God’s word says that He (God),” wants all of humanity to come to repentance”. He doesn’t want His children to be seperated from Him. That is why the plan of salvation through Christ was accomplished. Don’t forget that we Christians too will be judged. We won’t be seperated from God but will have to answer to Him for all we do. We all one day, whenever that is, will give an account for our lives whether we believe it or not. God never intended for humanity to sully itself with vile behaviour and with disobedience. Anyone can come to Him if they are willing and he will receive them. Salvation is like this. Pardon the analogy. We just came through the Christams season. Well we, at those who celebrate, were given a present. We did nothing to earn it as it was given to us freely by the one who gave it. It did cost the person who gave it to you though. All we needed to do was accept the free gift to us. We didn’t pay for the gift. Much the same way Christ came to give us salvation through His death and resurrection. It is free to us all but it cost Him His life. All we need to do is accept the gift. After that comes the lifestyle of obedience out of love and thankfulness not coersion, fear, or dread.

This punishment is so severe because we, humans, don’t take the implications of how bad any sin really is.

You’d think with the stakes that high, God would have made his existence, his message for salvation, and this “choice” issue much clearer than they are.

but because people misuse and misinterpret and manipulate scripture and others people just see it as hypocricy.

Historically, nobody has been better at manipulating and misinterpreting scripture than Christians themselves.

“If I understand you properly, you are equating God with a ruthless, heartless dictator. “

Your words, not mine.

“However, given the “scenario”, the dictator chooses to control and manipulate through fear, the peoples will. He also is making people do something they would otherwise not do, :I.e “worship” him.”

I’m still not seeing any differences here…

“In short, God does not force us to choose to worship and obey Him”

Why is the dictator saying “worship me or be tortured” coercion, but your god’s “worship me or be tortured for eternity in hell” not?

If I understand you properly, you are equating God with a ruthless, heartless dictator. However, given the “scenario”, the dictator chooses to control and manipulate through fear, the peoples will. He also is making people do something they would otherwise not do, :I.e “worship” him. The people claiming the “new dictator as merciful” is improper because the meaning of mercy is compassion. A ruthless dictator shows nothing like this. In short, God does not force us to choose to worship and obey Him. We ,or at least I, do it because of a thankful heart. When I read my bible and pray and spend time in quiet reflection of who God is and what He is doing and has done to, for and through me, I can’t help but choose to follow Him. If you knew me before I became a born again believer you’d understand a lot better about where I’m coming from. God has provided The Way for us to avoid an imminent and eternal punishment. This punishment is so severe because we, humans, don’t take the implications of how bad any sin really is. Not matter what the sin is ,big or small, it’s all the same to Him.Does this mean that I don’t screw up? NO, absolutely not. But what it does mean is that I can ask God for His forgiveness and mercy and help to change. He loves us more than we could ever know but because people misuse and misinterpret and manipulate scripture and others people just see it as hypocricy.

Well, actually no I did not gleen that from the bible. It comes from watching the people around me and listening to them speak. I never said that “non believers” were bad people either. Jesus died for our sins because God is holy and just. Satan rebelled and through the temptation of Eve in the garden caused man to be seperated from God’s presence. There is a price that needs to be paid for sin and it is Death. Not just physically, but spiritually. Jesus came and died in our place and took that punishment for us so we don’t have to. This doesn’t mean that we are able to live however we wish, but rather as thanks to Him we in turn follow and obey Him.

“God is shown merciful by his provision of a substitute to suffer the punishment for the sin of all mankind.”

Given that he defined ‘sin’ and what the punishment would be, this isn’t particularly convincing.

“God was under no compunction to do this, hence “mercy.””

Okay, let me postulate a scenario for you:

A country is ruled by a ruthless dictator, who puts in place laws that mandate 10 years of torture for a variety of crimes, including refusal to show obeisance to the dictator or his officials, attempts to leave the country, etc. He appoints someone to oversee this punishment and deal with infringers. Infringers are subjected to a variety of punishments - waterboarding, burns, and so forth - all the worst of modern and ancient torture techniques.

After a time, the dictator dies, and someone else takes his place. The new dictator doesn’t repeal any of these old rules, in fact he continues to enforce them as stringently as ever. His followers claim that he is ‘merciful’ and ‘just’ because all people have to do is show unfailing loyalty to him and they will be spared punishment. And after all, he’s not actually punishing anyone - he’s just not saving them from being punished by the person his predecessor appointed.

How would you judge such a person’s actions? Would you say they were “just” and “merciful”, or would “inhumane” and “despicable” be more appropriate appellations?

God created the earth and humanity free from strife. It was by man’s disobedience that sin entered the world. God is shown merciful by his provision of a substitute to suffer the punishment for the sin of all mankind. Yes, the world is f*ed up at the moment, but it has been redeemed by its own creator, and will be restored on the last day. God was under no compunction to do this, hence “mercy.”

YOU decide where your going to spend, God gave you a decision and choice, you choose.

Well, for one thing, free will doesn’t exist. More and more scientific research is leading to that conclusion. However, you’re telling me that God would rather people choose to follow him on their own, and is willing to risk the majority of them making the wrong choice and spending eternity in hell, rather than just save everyone regardless? Is God that insecure?

“A lot of interesting comments on this one. However, God does not send people to hell. Understand this, as this is paramount.”

If you believe god created the entire universe, that means he created hell, and set the conditions for entry into heaven or hell. Just because he has others to do his dirty work doesn’t mean he’s not responsible for sending people to hell to suffer eternal torment.

And it’s irrelevant anyway: Anyone who sees someone suffering, and can help them with minimal or no effort on their part, but refuses to, is unethical and immoral. Multiply that by billions of people and an infinite amount of punishment, and it’s difficult to imagine how anyone could consider a god that stands by and allows that to be just or moral.

“Some accept this message. Most do not. Why? Because they need an excuse to do whatever, to whom ever, whenever they feel like”

What exactly do you base this on? Do you have any statistics showing that people who aren’t christians are less moral than those who are? Because I’m pretty sure that’s not the case.

“Put it another way. If a person committed a crime should they not be punished for it? Much in the same way, God must punish sin.”

Yes, but I would call any judge who punished a minor sin with unbearable torture - let alone an infinite amount of it - a monster, immoral and unethical.

A lot of interesting comments on this one. However, God does not send people to hell. Understand this, as this is paramount. If a person rejects salvation in Christ then, as scripture says, they are enemies of God. Why? Because God is holy and He is just. His judgments are righteous and perfect. He has given every human being that has ever been born the opportunity to know Him in an intimate, saving way. What about people that’ve never heard of God? They will be judged according to their deeds to their fellow man. BUT, those in the civilized world who have heard and rejected this message have only themsleves to blame and are without excuse. God is not some monsterous ogre that wants to “smite the earth with a curse”. He has provided a way to escape the torment of being eternally seperated from Him through Jesus Christ. Some accept this message. Most do not. Why? Because they need an excuse to do whatever, to whom ever, whenever they feel like. Scripture says that the words in this book (the bible) are foolishness to those that are perishing. God’s mercy is new every morning and He asks that all would come to repentence and not let any man be lost. He loves us too much. Put it another way. If a person committed a crime should they not be punished for it? Much in the same way, God must punish sin. A judge hands a sentence down in order that the person be punished. God has done the same with sin. Sin must be dealt with. Because of His great love for His creation He has given us the best and most merciful gift. Jesus Christ. The lamb of God who took the sin of the world, past, present, and future on Himself that He would bridge the gap between God and man and restore a right relationship with Him. Now that’s mercy.

Erm. Don’t you think you’re making a lot of assumptions about what hell is? I personally think hell is exactly what a person asks for. If they reject God and want to be separated from him, that is exactly what hell is. Isolation from God. Whoop de freaking la la, but isn’t that what you want? Also, it is very specific in the Bible that the traditional view of hell (that is, gehenna, the fiery lake of damnation) is reserved for some very special people (the Beast and those who worship him &c).

Not all Christians believe in eternal damnation. The Universalists believed that everyone is eventually saved. One view is that the unsaved are consumed and cease to exist. Another view is that Hell is simply not to be in God’s presence.

The concept of eternal Hell presents many problems.

God supposedly infinitely loves his children. I wouldn’t wish eternal torture on my worst enemy so how is it that I have more compassion for my enemies than God has for his beloved children?

It is evil to punish someone who doesn’t deserve it. We live a finite amount of time therefore we can only have finite sins. If Hell’s torment goes on for eternity it is infinite punishment for finite sins. Since unjust punishment is evil and God gives an infinite amount of undeserved punishment than God is infinitely evil. By this way of thinking one might become a Satanist choosing the lesser of the two evils.

this is aging on of the things that dosen’t make sense with Christianity. the smallest thing can send you to hell. God offers no real proof of his existence or the bibles vilitity yet if we dont believe in him we are doomed to hell. In my opinion if this is God being a parent than he isn’t a good one.

In a nutshell: No being that creates a situation where the vast majority of sentient beings will be tortured for all eternity can plausibly be called ‘just’ or ‘good’ or ‘kind’ or any of the other labels Christians like to assign to their god. There’s no action for which an infinite amount of torture is a plausible punishment.

Note that no christian can actually answer that question.(as kingofpop allready said)

Think about this: If god, as many people claim him to be, is all-might and all-knowing(<note) WHY would he create humans KNOWING what and when they will do, and what and when WILL happen, and then sending them to hell? Now that’s a realy kind god, eh?

Second, if everything is in his power, why doesn’t he just “elominate” satan, and simply send everyone to heaven?

Also, if he is so kind, why would he send his own “son” to die for our “sins”, which he himself caused us to have? He allready knew that we are not going to obey some of his “rules” from the beginning, and so he should have known that people would still “sin”, even after the death of his “son”. My my. What a violent god.

What I’m trying to say is that it’s, in my opinion, silly to believe in god(the “one” god) as any of the religion describe it(him) to be.

JAX..I think God definately wants you to ask these questions…why would anyone including god want blind followers who dont ask questions to solidify their belief? look into your heart for these answers…I struggled (and still do) with these same questions..my question used to be…how could god send the native americans to hell? they are not believers in jesus…the indians lived in north america for hundreds of generations before it was even named america..but I came to the simple answer…he wouldn’t.

I really wouldnt bother looking for answer for this one. They simply do not have an answer but to have faith. Or it’s those who deserve it who burn in hell. I’m sorry, but if it was a person I loved, my kid, no matter what they did, I wouldnt send them to hell. I find it hard to make sense of a loving all-powerful God allowing such a thing… You’re asking for a question that has no answer. Keep questioning, and they’ll simply say you dont want to see the truth (without actually giving you an answer).

jax, your question is a good one. And there is no logical answer for it.

As you can see from other responses here, organized religions like Christianity have never been able to logically explain why a perfect and all-powerful god would allow people to suffer for all eternity. Or, for that matter, why such a god would allow his creation to be born with instincts to do certain things, and then make those things punishable for eternity.

If you read the book of Job, in the Bible, a similar question comes up. Why do good people suffer? The ultimate answer given in Job is very unsatisfying. God basically tells Job he has no business questioning the Almighty God because he is a mere mortal.

So that is the Judeo-Christian God’s answer for suffering: don’t question me!!! Is that the kind of being you want to believe in?

hmmm thats kinda my question too I think after life ends he sees whether or not you desrve to go to hell but that does seem pretty wrong like eternity and hes merciful God. its just my opinion but I think he knows if you wil learn or not or if you have tried your hardest to your ability-nobodys elses to have faith and try to follow him. but thats just me :)

then where is he to help us or to tell us that a decision we are making is not going to benefit us? That we will be in lots of trouble if we go the way we want? Its not fair for Him to throw us in a minefield on the edge of a cilff without a map. Thats what it seems like He is doing.

and “blah blah blah” is not acceptable to me kristayababii

God holds his word higher than his own name, so he didn’t have any choice in a way. Sin separates us from God, repentence brings us back to him. we make the choice. he doesnt,

Hell was never intended for us, it was intended for satan. and his angels. when adam and eve sinned that changed things. so for thousands of years people sinned and they sinned a lot. when God send jesus, He didn’t just die, he was completely blameless, be had been given all of the chances to sin and he hadn’t. He did it for us. so when he did die he had all of the sin of the entire world on him. He literally was sin. Not just your sin but everyones sin, from the beginning to the end. Jesus made a way for us to be with God again. salvation. so when we ask for forgivness and repent, (which means to change you mind.) then Jesus has mercy on us and forgives. we become citizens of heaven. God has no control of what happens in hell. Evil is the absence of good, just as dark is the absence of light.