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I have seen may questions where the questioner says something like "I was a Christian but now I have become an atheist because Christianity does not make any sense to me any more?" We see them take a position in life - from Christianity to atheism, from atheism to Christianity, from Islam to Christianity and vise versa etc.
Now taking a position or changing a religion is each individual's own choice. But problem is we find such behavior and such questions comming from people who are 13, 15 or 20 years of age.
I feel that at this age they do not possess enough knowledge of their religion change positions. I mean that people below the age of 25 are kids.
if someone has studied his religion for a good number of years and then feels that it makes no sense then one with sit with him and reason with him. But I feel that someone below the age of 25 should not think about judging their religion, nor should we (if we are responsible) encourage such people thinking in such line.
So does not age matter?
Oh Eternaldipstick, it's so cute when you try to accuse people of 'hatred' when they don't agree with you! How old are you really? 12?
Well God says the man is the head of the family. You say that there are no heads. If you don't believe in God that's fine but that does not give you the authority to set a moral standard or to say that God's standards are wrong.
You know that God also says to stone insolent children to death, right? In single parent households, there may be one head of the family. That doesn't necessarily mean the 'MAN of the house'. You might like your life being controlled by a man, but the healthy relationships I have seen, there isn't any masculine dominance. Perhaps you've never seen/experienced healthy relationships through your clinging to that nonsensical book you keep going on about- and for that, you have my sincerest pity.
*** What makes you think having a head means no mutual respect?***
If one adult in a relationship holds more status around the home, it is an imbalance of respect. Again, you really have no clue how healthy relationships work, and I find it really sad that, through your desperate need to believe in something, you choose to give away so much of your freedom.
Yes if both the adults are fools it will defiantly lead to abuse. In any case an unequal amount of respect was not suggested at all. You are basically working with a lot of assumptions as far as I can see.
The assumptions would be correct when you insist the 'MAN of the house' has to dictate which religion 'his' children are taught. You're basically saying the children are his property, to do with as he pleases, and no-one else in the household has any right to challenge him. Does that not sound abusive to you? I was brought up in a house where love and respect for one another were important, and we were encouraged to make our own decisions. Your ideal takes away people's choice in the matter, creating more brainwashed zombies. Oh, and you know that your holy book tells you not to call people fools, right? Guess you skipped that bit, along with the rest of it.
A person around the age of 30 could be called a mature person. This has nothing to do with the law of a country.
Ha! Gosh, I can't tell if you're just misguided, or incredibly dense. As I said earlier, you're a living example of age having nothing to do with maturity. The fact that you think you can stamp the label 'mature' on someone once they reach a certain age is a glaring example of how little life experience you've had.
Firstly I am saying if you had waited till you grew up you would known by yourself. See the problem is you are taking only part of what I am saying and bashing it. Look at the entirety.
But surely, if I can think rationally at 7, why should I suppress that til I'm 30? Eternaldipstick, I read what you say, and through bouts of laughter, I respond and poke holes in what you say. It's so easy. It used to be a sport, but these days, you're flogging the same dead horse over and over- how about bringing something fresh to the table, yeah? Because this stuff over and over, I'm growing rather disappointed in you.
Yes of course they did have experience. And if they choose to change their belief because of that they are right in doing so. However that is totally a different case.
So, they're entitled to question before they're 30 because they were sexually abused/persecuted for being a victim, but the rest of us aren't mature enough? Everyone has different experiences- the thing is, I've met plenty of other atheists and skeptics of all ages, and the majority of them knew from very early on that they didn't believe, but were told by people like you, not to question until they were older. Newsflash- it made no difference, they still don't believe. The only thing you're attempting to do is buy more time so you can try to fully indoctrinate them, take away their freedom of choice.
You will have the mind of an adult only when you are an adult.
So, why is it you seem to be so incapable of growing up, Eternaldipstick?
That is the result of lack of understanding. YOU are really responsible for whatever happens to you. YOU have the freedom to choose whatever you want. But ... IF... (NOTE THAT IF) after this life on earth you find out that there really is a Hell and a Heaven and that you are destined to spend your eternity in Hell don't think you an shift blames on anyone.
If I have a lack of understanding, you really cant blame me, seeing as how I am under 25 and am therefor not responsible for learning anything about a religion outside of my own. And according to you, I have the freedom to choose...but again...im under 25, so I have to blindly follow my parents... And I never planned on blaming anyone if I end up in hell, but you must keep in mind that there isnt just a possibility that IM wrong in my beliefs (which is possible for all of us) but also that YOU could be wrong, so make sure you dont blame anyone either. And if you end up in hell (if there is a hell.psh) for being intolerant and a sexist pig, then dont blame anyone for that either.
You may have read it but you have still have no idea what it says. Would you mind explaining what is so ridiculous about what the Bible says about spouses? Oh no, you misunderstand, I dont think just the part about spouses is ridiculous, I think the whole THING is ridiculous. Its a book. Yes it is an important book to many people but it is just a book. I dont worship every word in "Rumplestilskin" . The fact that so many people blindly follow what was written down in a book is ridiculous.
I did not ask you to. But you said this written by MEN to scare/guilt their wives into being submissive about the Bible. Are you not judging without knowing? judging without knowing? We all know that the bible was written by men, and the men during that time DID NOT respect women. This is HISTORY. Actual history. I dont need to know, I can put two and two together. I dont believe a diety worth following would actually create women to be a lesser part of the human species. Especially when for a long time, women were political leaders until other male dominatied cultures began to grow and change things and the women were smart enough to decide they can let the men think they are ruling but the women knew they could rule through the men.
Overall, eternalife... I hope we entertained you, because clearly you were bored and wanted a reaction, and congratulations, you got it. Now you look like an ignorant and rude conformist who blindly follows the bible, and does not care about other people. And before you say that I am judging etc, you must know ... no SH!T im judging we are on a website! And I am really sick of you hiding behind "you did not understand my question, I was merely saying..." because we all KNOW what you were saying, so quit backtracking. It makes you look like more of an idiot than you already looked like from the beginning. We dont need to read your statements directly, we get the hidden meanings.
A final answer to the question. Age does not matter when it comes to spiritual maturity. And I really wish you wouldnt play dumb about this , if you think reaaally hard (I know you can do it now) then you can figure out what I mean by spiritual maturity, especially since I already explained it. For example: you are less spiritually mature than most people on this site. How do I know this? Because the Christian who is SO insecure in their beliefs that they feel that they have to quote the bible every 5 seconds and dictate their every action towards themselves and OTHERS really needs to find confidence in their beliefs. It is the confident Christian who can accept the changing times and still just believe. You are so insecure in your beliefs that you resort to the bible, a book written ages ago and is clearly out of date, for things in your life like a relationship. Its ridiculous. As I have said to you on more than one occasion, I really hope you find that confidence one day. Good luck with that.
hysterical
If you don't mind I would like to voice out my opinions on this. Why is this that according to you I can't question the little that I have learned about my religious teachings?
Because operating on incomplete knowledge will only mislead you. Unless you gain a fair amount of knowledge you only make a wrong judgement of your religion.
If I had to abide by this then that would make me think that all other religions are terrible and wrong?
No it wouldn't. It would rather enlighten you about the truth of your religion.
Think about the Christians, if you only studied Christianity then you would know about the Crusades and you would likely side with the Christians and call the Muslims an abomination.
I don't think so. A person who studied Christianity would never support the crusades. Neither is there any reason for those who studied Christianity to call Muslims an abomination.
Are you implying that the ''little'' experience I have doesn't suffice?
Yes if you are in that age group (under 25).
**Your basically telling me that I don't have a freedom of choice? My mother has to make me follow this religion? **
Of course you do have a freedom to choose. But who is taking care of you right now? Who looking after all your needs? Who has your responsibility? Who is growing you up? Your mother. You should rather use your freedom to choose, to do what your mother wants you to do.
I would love to know why is it that I can't question what I have learned just because I'm not old enough
I believe I have already answered that.
I consider women equal to men.
So do I.
According to you, the most irresponsible person of my family should be the leader? Wow thats brilliant.
Firstly I was answering another person when I said that the father must be the leader.
Secondly your father is an example of how one could turn out to be by not studying ones own religion properly and taking hasty decisions before being mature. Because all religions have good moral values in them. By his decisions you father may not be really affected but you your mother were.
Thirdly an irresponsible father has no right to be the head of the family.
Are you saying that as a kid the choice of following a religion that they agree on is out of the question because they can't think in a logical mature fashion and they simply have to stick to the religion that their parents chose for them?
I am not saying that kids can't think logically. I am saying kids have to see a good amount of life before they can take correct decisions. There are many things a kid just cannot understand. For example a kid cannot understand the role of a husband or a father. They simply cannot understand what a matured person is like until they are matured. Therefore that is not the right time to take such decisions.
***I'll tell you this much, my mother doesn't even care what religion I follow so long as I am happy following and she won't question me about it in a negative way. She might be curious about it but she would never force me to follow it, ..."
Your mother loves you and I respect her much. But she just may not be aware of the repercussion. I do not blame your mother she is doing what she thinks is the best for you. Again that effort has to be appreciated.
are you saying that my mom is obligated to force me to follow the religion she chose for me until I'm 30? Once again thats just wonderful. ***
I never spoke about forcing. I never said anything about parenting. I only about kids.
If you don't mind I would like to voice out my opinions on this. Why is this that according to you I can't question the little that I have learned about my religious teachings? Is there a reason for me not being able to question it? What your telling me is that I should simply be following my religion with blind eyes. I don't agree with that the slightest bit.
''You have a wrong understanding of the whole issue. The reason why there is a high amount of religious intolerance today is not because kids are taught to follow their parents religion but rather kids are not taught to research and study their own religion. That is what leads to kids growing up without independent thinking. Parents should encourage kids to do research in their own religion.''
If I had to abide by this then that would make me think that all other religions are terrible and wrong? If I simply researched my own religion then likely I would have a negative view towards other religions don't you think so? Think about the Christians, if you only studied Christianity then you would know about the Crusades and you would likely side with the Christians and call the Muslims an abomination.
''You say this because you yourself are a kid. You do not know what it is being an adult. The experience that comes with age comes only with age. With age and experience comes understanding. Not that you don't have understanding right now. But you will better equipped to get the right understanding with experience.''
Are you implying that the ''little'' experience I have doesn't suffice? I agree with age and experience comes understanding but at this point I understand very clearly that I don't happen to like the religion that my mom decided to choose for me. Your basically telling me that I don't have a freedom of choice? My mother has to make me follow this religion? If this isn't what your trying to say then make sure that what your trying to say can be understood.
Why is it that I can't question my religious teachings? Do people not learn through questions? Answer me this, I would love to know why is it that I can't question what I have learned just because I'm not old enough
''Now concerning who is the head of the family. God has appointed all things and He has appointed that the man I.e the husband is the head of the family. But if you do not believe in God then there is no point telling you this''
I do believe in god but if a religion has me following this then no thanks. I consider women equal to men. Right now the head of the family is my mother not my father he doesn't even live with me. According to you, the most irresponsible person of my family should be the leader? Wow thats brilliant.
Why is it that you think that maturity is defined by age, thats wrong on so many levels. Are you saying that as a kid the choice of following a religion that they agree on is out of the question because they can't think in a logical mature fashion and they simply have to stick to the religion that their parents chose for them? I'll tell you this much, my mother doesn't even care what religion I follow so long as I am happy following and she won't question me about it in a negative way. She might be curious about it but she would never force me to follow it, are you saying that my mom is obligated to force me to follow the religion she chose for me until I'm 30? Once again thats just wonderful.
I am 38.
And still not capable of rational thought! Time to put away such childish toys...
Another example of a person mindlessly condemning something that he/she does not understand as stupid.
Yes, because killing and hurting people is a great way to live your life. Stop me if I'm wrong, but doing things blindly because a book tells you to... doesn't that seem a little stupid? But of course you don't do those things, right? Hmm... guess that book isn't so infallible, otherwise 'God' is gonna be singularly unimpressed with you!
What makes you think that if one member is the head of the family there is an imbalance of respect?
Let's see... there's all of the counselling training workshops I've attended, as well as relationship counselling... think you need to move out of the dark ages eternaldipstick.
Note this phrase ...to do with as he pleases. Those were not my words. You put them there and you ask Does that not sound abusive to you?.
You've been saying that 'the MAN of the house' should dictate what religion the children should adhere to. That means, by your reasoning, 'the MAN of the house' chooses the religion as he pleases. He makes the choice, the others have no say. ABUSIVE. Amazing how you can't wrap your fragile little mind around that.
Why do you misbehave?
I 'misbehave' because I actually have the choice. I guess you never had the choice to think freely, express your own opinions, choose your path in life, and for that, you have my pity.
Moreover what makes you think that being the head of something give one the right to do whatever he/she pleases?
Again, you think they should have the right to choose what their children believe in. This is one of the key points in indoctrination. 'The MAN of the house' chooses what pleases them (ie: what religion the children will follow), and that's that. That takes away freedom of choice. So you're empowering 'the MAN of the house' to do as he pleases. Maybe you enjoy oppression, but those of us in the rational world don't.
That's your assumption and its not true.
Let's see... 'the MAN of the house' dictates what his children believe... tells them not to question it until they're 30... spends 30 years indoctrinating, bullying, and fearmongering into believing something, casting out all rational thought, to the point where they reach 30 and cling to the believe they were taught through fear... yup, last I checked, that's brainwashing.
You make no sense because you have not understood what I am saying.
I love this one... whenever anyone rips you to shreds, they 'just don't understand' what you're saying. Did it ever occur to you that maybe... just maybe... that you're completely off your rocker? If people can tear down what you say so easily, did it occur to you that maybe your ideas might not be so sound or stable as you'd like to think they are?
I really think we're done here eternaldipstick- I mean, I enjoy intelligent conversation, and it's such a disappointment when you can't manage to put forward anything with a scrap of substance.
You have a wrong understanding of the whole issue. The reason why there is a high amount of religious intolerance today is not because kids are taught to follow their parents religion but rather kids are not taught to research and study their own religion. That is what leads to kids growing up without independent thinking. Parents should encourage kids to do research in their own religion.
its not the kids' religion you want them to research its their parents' religion and the religion they chose for them. Kids need to research all religions, not just the one shoved down their throat. You keep talking in circles, kids should follow, no they must research, but they must follow etc etc etc. Religious intolerance does indeed come from lack of knowledge but its not from lack of knowledge of their own religion, it is the lack of knowledge of other religions. several times you have said that kids should blindly follow their parents. but oh they should research but only their parents religion? thats ridiculous.
**You say this because you yourself are a kid. You do not know what it is being an adult. The experience that comes with age comes only with age. With age and experience comes understanding. Not that you don't have understanding right now. But you will better equipped to get the right understanding with experience. **
I will repeat this again. SPIRITUAL experience is NOT directly attatched to the experience gained from AGE. YES there is experience to be gained only with age, but it has little to do with spirituality in many cases.
That is the problem. Kids do not know the after effects of the change. They have no clue how it is going to affect the rest of their lives, others who will come into their life, and even after this life
then by all means keep them in a bubble until they are 25 then explode a bunch of new ideas on them. The best and most memorable experiences occur during youth. It can only teach them acceptance, something I believe most Christians are SUPPOSED to value.
Now concerning who is the head of the family. God has appointed all things and He has appointed that the man I.e the husband is the head of the family. But if you do not believe in God then there is no point telling you this
It is Christians like you that create the stereotype of the sexist pig overcontroling christian nut. You embarass Christians with that statement. You make me glad im not a Christian. Why the hell would I take something written by MEN to scare/guilt their wives into being submissive seriously. You are the classic case of a sexist pig who falls back on the bible to justify his lack of understanding of life and poorly thought out opinions that dont make sense.
**The MAN of the house I.e. the HEAD of the family (the father) should decide what his child should follow. ** What time period are you leaving in? My mother is the head of the household.
That's what I am saying. They should follow their parents. Such choices must be made when they are grown ups.*
That kind of "follow your parents until told otherwise" thinking is why there is a high amount of religious intolerance today. Maybe "kids" should research ALL religions during childhood, not just their parents' religion. If a kid is taught the same thing all through their life do you honestly believe they will make an effort to research other religions? the majority doesnt. It is more convienient for them to just keep to what their parents said. This is why there are so many closed-minded people today, they are taught to stick with the beliefs of the parents until it is really almost "too late" for them to even research other options. What you are suggesting will put an end to independant thinking in todays youth. Bravo.
True but how do think you could have experience without age? Kids have not live long enough to claim they have experiences. They have seen only a very small part of life.*
thats a hasty generalization. A minor can experience MUCH more than an adult, and even then , you dont know what they experienced SPIRITUALLY. Wisdom does NOT come with age it comes with experience, and although age and wisdom do usually go hand in hand, there is still no way to tell what a persons spiritual maturity is. And anyway...so they change religions a lot...SO WHAT? So then maybe the will gain some more... whats the word? Experience? It can only prepare them for future religious differences in the future. Just lettem be.
I want to discuss truth. I do not have any other bad intentions.
You want to discuss YOUR idea of truth. As far as I can tell you are not interested in anything anyone here has to say. You were bored and wanted a good question that would cause some good responses to come up so you could pick at them. Try to read with an open mind.
*** That is not what I said. I said Kids should learn to keep their questions aside for the time being.. not completely stop thinking and just follow. See you don't seem to be able to understand what I am typing.***
um...then why did you say this later That's what I am saying. They should follow their parents. Such choices must be made when they are grown ups. isnt that EXACTLY what you meant. As far as I can tell they understood it perfectly.
Learn keep those questions aside for the time being and live till you are at least 30 and then deal with those questions. That is when you are mature.
Eternalblah, you are living proof that age doesn't make you any wiser.
The MAN of the house I.e. the HEAD of the family (the father) should decide what his child should follow.
Ever looked up the word 'misogynist'? I think you'll find your picture in there next to the definition. Here's a little education on healthy relationships- in a household with two adults/parents (same sex or otherwise), neither one of those people is the 'head of the household'. This is because, in a relationship, you have mutual respect for each other. An unequal amount of respect leads to something called ABUSE. I would hope you could wrap your narrow, archaic little mind around that, but those inflated with such self importance are rarely willing to take on such knowledge.
That's what I am saying. They should follow their parents. Such choices must be made when they are grown ups.*
Define 'grown up'? In my home country, you're legally an adult at 18. So you're saying I can legally choose to have sex at 16, get married, sign contracts, drink and smoke at 18, but I have to wait until I'm 30 to question the existence of 'God'? Man, I questioned the existence of the My Little Ponies at age 7, are you saying I should have waited til I was 30 to question that too?
True but how do think you could have experience without age? Kids have not live long enough to claim they have experiences..
Wow... a misogynist and an ageist. Question for you there, would you say the children who have been sexually abused by Catholic Priests, and the girls condemned, beaten, tortured, and in some circumstances killed, for being raped in theocratic countries have not had any 'experience' that would let them decide that this is not the sort of thing they would choose to believe? I'd challenge you to have the same treatment and still think you had no right to question.
I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in thinking this, but Eternalblah, you seem to love the sound of your own voice, to the point that you start spitting out sentences which show what a truly indoctrinated, brainwashed, pompous, egotistical, intolerant and completely archaic individual you truly are, whilst highlighting how misinformed you are about the world that exists outside your little cultist ideals. Reality check, if you want to live in a theocracy, I believe Saudi Arabia might work for you better than the FA community.
lex_icon
Wow! What hatred! Well if you could keep that aside for the time being we could discuss something.
Here's a little education on healthy relationships- in a household with two adults/parents (same sex or otherwise), neither one of those people is the 'head of the household'
Well God says the man is the head of the family. You say that there are no "heads". If you don't believe in God that's fine but that does not give you the authority to set a moral standard or to say that God's standards are wrong.
This is because, in a relationship, you have mutual respect for each other.
I did not deny that. What makes you think having a head means no mutual respect?
An unequal amount of respect leads to something called ABUSE.
Yes if both the adults are fools it will defiantly lead to abuse. In any case an unequal amount of respect was not suggested at all. You are basically working with a lot of assumptions as far as I can see.
**Define 'grown up'? In my home country, you're legally an adult at 18. So you're saying I can legally choose to have sex at 16, get married, sign contracts, drink and smoke at 18, but I have to wait until I'm 30 to question the existence of 'God'? **
A person around the age of 30 could be called a mature person. This has nothing to do with the law of a country.
Man, I questioned the existence of the My Little Ponies at age 7, are you saying I should have waited til I was 30 to question that too?
Firstly I am saying if you had waited till you grew up you would known by yourself. See the problem is you are taking only part of what I am saying and bashing it. Look at the entirety.
Question for you there, would you say the children who have been sexually abused by Catholic Priests, and the girls condemned, beaten, tortured, and in some circumstances killed, for being raped in theocratic countries have not had any 'experience' that would let them decide that this is not the sort of thing they would choose to believe?
Yes of course they did have experience. And if they choose to change their belief because of that they are right in doing so. However that is totally a different case. I am not talking about such kids at all. Moreover when I talk about experience I do mean such experiences. I am talking about life experiences. You will have the mind of an adult only when you are an adult.
gaia3
Spiritual experience is the experience that one has with their spirituality. Pretty self explanatory.
Well actually it is not self explanatory. Could you explain to me what "spirituality" means?
**Um actually I have read the bible, several translations actually. And I am well aware of what the bible speaks of about spouses. And it. is. the. most. ridiculous. thing. I . have. ever . read. **
You may have read it but you have still have no idea what it says. Would you mind explaining what is so "ridiculous" about what the Bible says about spouses?
I dont adhere to laws that were made hundreds of years ago (when it was ok to rape etc) so why would I adhere to what the bible has to say?
I did not ask you to. But you said this "written by MEN to scare/guilt their wives into being submissive" about the Bible. Are you not judging without knowing?
You assumed that all kids are born into christianity, hate to break it to you but I was born into wicca and buddhism, NOT christianity, so again, it was my mistake ,
What made you assume that I had such assumption? I was from the beginning stressing this point that every kid should learn their religion. Go read my posting again. Let me repeat once again.
ALL KIDS MUST LEARN THEIR RELIGION FIRST AND CONSIDER CHANGE ONLY WHEN THEY ARE MATURED
That was my point and I did not speak anything about Christianity. So who has misunderstood and who has judged wrongly?
I should not have wasted my time reading the bible, im under 25 and am not mature enough to handle it.
Exactly. That is why I said LEARN YOUR RELIGION FIRST.
Thanks eternalife, now ill never have to even CONSIDER the RIDICULOUS possiblilty of converting to christianity.
That is the result of lack of understanding. YOU are really responsible for whatever happens to you. YOU have the freedom to choose whatever you want. But ... IF... (NOTE THAT "IF") after this life on earth you find out that there really is a Hell and a Heaven and that you are destined to spend your eternity in Hell don't think you an shift blames on anyone.
gaia3
That kind of follow your parents until told otherwise thinking is why there is a high amount of religious intolerance today. Maybe kids should research ALL religions during childhood, not just their parents' religion. If a kid is taught the same thing all through their life do you honestly believe they will make an effort to research other religions? the majority doesnt. It is more convienient for them to just keep to what their parents said. This is why there are so many closed-minded people today, they are taught to stick with the beliefs of the parents until it is really almost too late for them to even research other options. What you are suggesting will put an end to independant thinking in todays youth. Bravo.
You have a wrong understanding of the whole issue. The reason why there is a high amount of religious intolerance today is not because kids are taught to follow their parents religion but rather kids are not taught to research and study their own religion. That is what leads to kids growing up without independent thinking. Parents should encourage kids to do research in their own religion.
**A minor can experience MUCH more than an adult, and even then , you dont know what they experienced SPIRITUALLY. Wisdom does NOT come with age it comes with experience, and although age and wisdom do usually go hand in hand, there is still no way to tell what a persons spiritual maturity is. **
You say this because you yourself are a kid. You do not know what it is being an adult. The experience that comes with age comes only with age. With age and experience comes understanding. Not that you don't have understanding right now. But you will better equipped to get the right understanding with experience.
And anyway...so they change religions a lot...SO WHAT? So then maybe the will gain some more... whats the word? Experience?
That is the problem. Kids do not know the after effects of the change. They have no clue how it is going to affect the rest of their lives, others who will come into their life, and even after this life.
Can you explain to me what you mean by Spiritual Experience.* Spiritual experience is the experience that one has with their spirituality. Pretty self explanatory. There are people who have researched, and who know more about theirs (and others) religions, and there are those who have a different connection to it. That connection has nothing to do with age, becasue clearly there are plenty of "kids" here who grasp the concept of religious tolerance and respect than you do.
scare/guilt their wives!!? You have NO idea what the Bible speaks about husbands and wives. Why do you speak about something you have no clue about? Would it not be sensible to get a fair idea of something before blurting out such statements?
Um actually I have read the bible, several translations actually. And I am well aware of what the bible speaks of about spouses. And it. is. the. most. ridiculous. thing. I . have. ever . read. I dont adhere to laws that were made hundreds of years ago (when it was ok to rape etc) so why would I adhere to what the bible has to say? It was written by men. as in humans. You werent there when it was made you have no idea on the validity of it. as for getting a fair idea before blurting something out... have you READ your responses?!?!?! You believe that it is actually ok that kids learn one religion and one only , not research many. You ...DO realize of coure that it goes both ways, if I had not read the bible or researched, I would be doing EXACTLY what you want me to do. I was not born into Christianity, therefore I SHOULD be blurting out information about stuff I dont know anything about. You assumed that all kids are born into christianity, hate to break it to you but I was born into wicca and buddhism, NOT christianity, so again, it was my mistake , I should not have wasted my time reading the bible, im under 25 and am not mature enough to handle it. Thanks eternalife, now ill never have to even CONSIDER the RIDICULOUS possiblilty of converting to christianity.
lol janeof the jungle/ jimahl
lol all im saying is, even now, with your senses, you cant prove anything. Your monists, but not skeptics.
no matter what your senses tell you, they are NEVER going to be for certain.
I know this sounds absurd...but it is very true.
ex:
lets test your sight.
lets say you were staring at a glass of water half filled with water with a spoon in it. outside of the water, the spoons is visible clearly straight, UNTIL it has contact with water do you see the illusion that the spoon is split entirely. im sure we have all seen this illusion.
your sight right away tells you, " the spoon is split", but after studying it do you realize its an illusion.
your senses decieved you.
another example
your driving on an extremely hot summer day, and from a distance you see water in the road. you think to yourself "I see water", but you come to the realization after, that infact it is a mirage, yet again, another illusion.
once again, your senses decieved you. your sight decieved your brain.
your senses, are unreliable.
and one can question, since the senses are unreliable at times, and bring us illusions, could they always be unreliable? could we be living in illusions???
and all in all, if your senses are unreliable, can you ever really prove anything in the metaphysical?
one would have to ask the epistemological question, if we even have the resources to trully answer.
if your telling me that your senses are why you do what you do, why you believe what you believe, than what im telling you is that... they can be just as unreliable sources, as things you cant see, cant hear, cant touch, cant smell, cant taste.
your senses are not just fit enough.
just ponder on it. I know it sounds ridiculous.
but just as you cant prove to me your not in a dream right now, just as you cant prove to me if we are all just an idea in Gods mind, you cant prove to me what you see and percieve.
Eternallife - *** What needs to be feared has to be feared. Would you not teach your child to fear fire or electricity? Do they not learn to handle them when they grow up?***
You know we must teach our children to fear dangers in life. But didn’t you teach and Show your children exactly why fires, electricity, cliffs or high buildings are dangerous for them? Did you show them articles in magazines or news paper pictures and evidence of what happens to people who are not careful? Yes most of us taught our children these dangers, but some had to experiment with it then themselves to also believe what the consequences are. They have asked questions, which they mostly needed hard evidence for, like touching the stove even after Mom warned them not to. Atleast then they had proof of true dangers! Can you supply them with evidence to what exactly they must fear in religion, except for what is written in a 2000 yr old version of a script by people who didn’t have the faintest clue what high voltage, 10 storey buildings or even a round earth was?
Now you’re telling us, that young children are not allowed to ask questions concerning the religion their parents force them into? They are allowed and MUST ask you why fire, electricity or drugs are dangerous to people, but please please please don’t mention the “G” word. Hmf talk about close mindedness!
Eternallife - *** The MAN of the house I.e. the HEAD of the family (the father) should decide what his child should follow.***
Freakin hell, you ARE living in the stone age aren’t you!
Why should the man be the HEAD of the family? Who is the HEAD of the family when the wife earn a higher income than the husband huh?
But then again, if you are male, I can understand you clinging on to your believes, because you wont like to share or loose your throne ;-)
…..and if you are female, I feel so sorry for you!!!
Eternallife, I do not represent all and every 20 years olds, but this is my opinion and I know I'm going to get my chop busted, but I think most of the youngies around my age who proclaimed they used to be Christians and have now turned to Atheists are either following the trend or want to be part of the norm...That is, it more 'fashionable' to be known as an Atheists in every scene of the word…It’s almost like being called an ‘uber elite’ now.
Granted, there are teenagers who have had bad experiences growing up in a Christian house-hold and now they are at an age where they are able to question things which do not sit right with them, for example, does God exists, why is God punishing people and letting people die if he is a caring and loving God etc, etc... Every question and query a person has regarding Christianity or any faiths for that matter, and is brave enough to voice it because they really want to know for themselves, then I personally think they are doing the right thing and it makes them a wiser human being.
BUT...if they are only questioning or switching their beliefs to become ‘sheeps’, so they can follow their friends or think they will be in a person's good book if they denounce their Christian faith in order to impress someone in authority both online and offline, then I think it's sad.
From a personal angle, my older, younger brothers and I were brought up in a Christian house-hold but with parents who were open-minded to almost everything. They certainly did not lose any sleep when my older brother decided he didn't want to become a Christian anymore or their daughter started dating someone who has no regards for religions and they love us unconditionally.
I’m open to an adult discussion about this issue without having an online boxing match…So fingers crossed for postive and constructive feedbacks all around.
gaia3
The fact that so many people blindly follow what was written down in a book is ridiculous.
Blindly!??? Evidently you don't understand anything.
men during that time DID NOT respect women.
That's what you don't know. You don't know what is written in the pages of Bible and the meaning of it.
I have only this to say. You are going on saying speaking about Spiritual maturity but you can't explain to me what spiritual maturity is. You can't explain to what spirit is in the first place. On top all this you can' t get it into your head that what I am talking about has nothing to do with Spiritual maturity. I have said simple things but you can't understand.
You don't know about the Bible, you don't know about what Christianity is all about and yet you still want to make judgments like the Christian is insecure. The funniest part I was not talking about Christianity at all from the beginning YET you want to assume that that's my intention. Also please note I have not quoted even a single verse in the entire 4 pages of communication in this question then by your standards I should be among the confident ones. I only pray that you get more understanding on all issues.
jimahl
By your standards every child should go the university professors and tell them "you have completely lost all credibility in this discussion. You should really give it up before you make youself look even more foolish than you already do. On second thought, I don't think you could look more foolish than you already do. But the depth of your ignorance does keep managing to surprise me..."
Because according to you whatever you don't understand is deemed foolishness.
kids, as you call them, are usually easily bribed, shall we say chrisitianity claims to offer a place in heaven and to live for eternity up their pretty much all other religions all claim that as well to live forever in a better place with some sort of god and to these kids, thats sounds like a good deal most of these kids are forced into a religion because of religious parents others are talked into it by people who preach others learn abut the many different religions there are out there and decide on which ones right for them and others simply dont want anything to do with anything religous and there is nthing at all wrong with that anyone of any age is allowed to and has the right to question any religion especially there own because unfortunantly, most religions just drill everything into your brain saying its all true, when in fact lots of things there sayng are not true and there is no proof that any of them are in fact real anyway youd be surprised at how many older people question their religion though the reason you dont see or hear of too many is because after so many years of beleiving in something, most people are not going to want to hear that what they beleive in is wrong, and that all these years theyve been beleiving in lies, so they simply ignore anything/anyone that talks down about what they beleive in but basically, in my opinion age has nothing to do with how you veiw religion or your own religion, people at any age can and have the right to decide what religion they want to beleive in and if they want to change it the only thing thats sickens me is the people who shove their religious beleifs pown these peoples throughs
eternallife: Let me turn your thesis around. I see so many people say they are a Christian who are 13, 15, or 20 years of age. I feel that at this age they do not possess enough knowledge to take such a position.
I assume you are a Christian right? Don't you admire someone who is a devout Christian at a young age and consider them wise beyond their years but at the same time I'll bet you consider someone who discounts Christianity at the same age to be too young to take such a position. Your own bias is showing. You think it is proper to be a young Christian but not a young Atheist?
I quit believing in God when I was 12. At that age it was discounted as a phase I was going through. Everyone thought that I would come back into the fold being that much stronger a Christian for coming around on my own. The problem is the more I learned about religion the less likely it seemed to me. I did flirt with a few religions in my 20's. There are religions I admire that I felt drawn to but in the end I could accept some of their viewpoints but the idea of a literal God still did not work for me.
fruitylicious, adding to what jimahl said, I've been an atheist for 36 years and I've never seen anywhere where atheism was trendy or fashionable. I could see how it could be briefly idealized as a form of teen angst nihilism but as someone who has lived as an atheist I assure you that we are more distrusted and despised than any other minority. Of course we can just keep our mouths shut and nobody knows but for those of us who do not stay in the closet the world can be a very unfriendly place.
*kuroitama **
What is the spirituality you are speaking about? Could you explain?
What you're suggesting is that it's okay for children to be convinced or indoctrinated into a position, but not for them to change their mind about it later, when they have the opportunity to consider it on its own merits - which strikes me as absurd.
You are putting words into my mouth. I said they can change their mind but they have to be mature first.
**Eternallife would it then be fair to say that children should rather be raised WITHOUT ANY religion, so they then could make their OWN decisions and use common sense as to whether religion makes sense or not, when they are over 20? **
That would not be possible as parents would definitely influence their children. So rather children should stick to their parents belief and when they are mature consider their beliefs if need arises.
Age does not matter, spatial maturity isn't dictated by age.
But knowledge matters. At that age you know very little about anything. By the way what do you mean by spiritual maturity?
If below the age of 25, people are not mature enough to think about religion and make religious decisions, then it is immoral to attempt to involve people younger than that in religious activity, since they are not capable of making a decision.
Depends on which religion's religious activity they are made to involve in. It is no immoral to involve them in religious activities of their own religion. But it is immoral to involve them in other religious activities.
So rather children should stick to their parents belief and when they are mature consider their beliefs if need arises.
Wow, what an incredibly telling statement about the mind of a chrisitan-fundamentalist. You are basically telling our youth to shut-up, believe what you are told, and don't question anything you are taught until you are 30 years old. Maturity is not something that happens all of the sudden. Maturity can be described in many different way; social maturity, intellectual maturity, sexual maturity, etc... And it all happens differently with each individual.
What you seem to be really upset about is there are many young people on FA who think for themselves. Part of maturing is learning. Young people usually have a much higher capabilities to learn than older people. Why would you want to impeded that process? Just because they might not choose to follow their parents belief system? What about a household with parents of differeing beliefs? I am atheist and my wife is a practicing catholic (I know you think she isn't really chrisitian). How should that be handled in your world? Or is "immoral" for my wife to be married to an atheist?
*** But it is immoral to involve them in other religious activities. ***
You are so arrogant... So my son should not be allowed go to a friends bar mitzvah? Nor should I allow either of my kids to attend their aunt's baptist wedding? Nor allow my son, while visiting another aunt, to go to a unitarian service at her church?
I think you need to grow up a little...
Athletalife ***lets say you were staring at a glass of water half filled with water with a spoon in it. outside of the water, the spoons is visible clearly straight, UNTIL it has contact with water do you see the illusion that the spoon is split entirely. im sure we have all seen this illusion.
your driving on an extremely hot summer day, and from a distance you see water in the road. you think to yourself I see water, but you come to the realization after, that infact it is a mirage, yet again, another illusion.***
Athleta, a 2-10 year old wouldn’t know anything about Refraction and change in direction of waves due to a change in its speed, so for him it would be both amazing And seem like magic. But as we grow older and actually pay attention in the science class, we learn about all these illusions and why they happen. It isn’t that amusing anymore, because we can explain it. We see them, know that every other “normal” person also have the same experience to this. Now, the same doesn’t apply to one in a million person who claimed to see something supernatural like ghosts, tokelosh (in South Africa) gremlins or whatever!
Also, when I swore to have seen water from a distance in the road and told a friend, don’t you think I would be able to proof and explain this to him afterwards, taking the same circumstances? Yes I would and if it was 2000 years ago, we would have had a supernatural explanation for it ;-)
If we do not understand what we see, we are ALWAYS free to question and find answers, we don’t live in the Stone Age!
My own "conversion" to non christian viewpoint was based on 8+ years of church attendance :)
and while it happened at a young age (between 13-18)...I have yet to see the point of the Christian viewpoint. Is it good to be "good" to people? Sure...but, before I was ever dragged to a church, I knew (via my parents) it was wrong to steal, kill, etc...and while attending church, I had the (mis)fortune of visiting another country.
Lo & behold...between that & learning that the ONLY reason my own ancestors ever believed in the bible in the first place was a mindless slaughter...well, if that was "god's love" I didn't want any part of it :)
Unless you're saying we should forgive & forget the past? If so...how far back do you go, to forgive & forget? If I convert YOUR family and country at "nuclear weapon point" today, to say, Taoism...and 1,000 years from now...they are all Taoists...should they: 1) drop taoism because it was forced on them? 2) continue as they are? 3) abandon religion altogether, as every one was forced on them via bloodshed, provable through historical records?
Dunno about you, mate...but, I wouldn't adopt a new faith just becuase my family was slaughtered...however, to prevent their slaughter, I would adopt one...and eventually, my mistake would yeild the same Christian / Muslim / etc, situation we have in the world now.
Or are you one of those people who say that history doesn't matter?
lex_icon
How old are you really? 12?
I am 38.
**You know that God also says to stone insolent children to death, right? ** *** Perhaps you've never seen/experienced healthy relationships through your clinging to that nonsensical book you keep going on about- ...***
Another example of a person mindlessly condemning something that he/she does not understand as stupid.
If one adult in a relationship holds more status around the home, it is an imbalance of respect.
What makes you think that if one member is the head of the family there is an imbalance of respect?
You're basically saying the children are his property, to do with as he pleases, and no-one else in the household has any right to challenge him. Does that not sound abusive to you?
Note this phrase "...to do with as he pleases". Those were not my words. You put them there and you ask "Does that not sound abusive to you?". Why do you misbehave?
Moreover what makes you think that being the head of something give one the right to do whatever he/she pleases?
Your ideal takes away people's choice in the matter, creating more brainwashed zombies.
That's your assumption and its not true.
*** The only thing you're attempting to do is buy more time so you can try to fully indoctrinate them, take away their freedom of choice.***
You make no sense because you have not understood what I am saying.
*** I did not say that either. I said they should learn their religion thoroughly before questioning. Read properly what I have typed. ***
Yes you did say that, and I have absolutlely no problem reading or understanding what you wrote. I simply think it is one of THE most ignorant things I have ever heard, and you don't like when people bring up the implications of the crap you spew.
*** I did not say that either. I said they should learn their religion thoroughly before questioning. Read properly what I have typed. ***
And you think it takes until 25 before they can make up their own mind? You are advocating a society of lemmings. You say out of one side of your mouth they should learn about their parents relgion, and out of the other that they should not question anything they are taught about that religion. If they don't question anything about it, they are not learning anything. Except a lot of dogma.
*** The MAN of the house I.e. the HEAD of the family (the father) should decide what his child should follow. ***
Are you for real??? I knew you were pretty ignorant, but wow... that is mind blowing...
*** You don't seem to understand the meaning of the word involve. Involve is not attending or participating. ***
Please stop parsing words. So if my son started to ask questions to my nephew making his bar mitzvah about his beliefs, I should stop him?
You are clueless...
UGH!
AGE DOES NOT EQUAL MATURITY.
You can be 35 and totally ignorant. You can be 16 and really mature.
Anyway it doesn't matter really since no religion is real. I'm not 25 and I've had the time to study many religions, from their beginnings until now and I have to say that most of them start out the same and end the same.
Not to disrespect peoples beliefs but religions were invented for the following reasons:
RELIGION functions so well because people are essentially a giant flock of stupid sheep who need a shepard to tell them what to do and where to go and how to be good little sheep. If everyone was naturally smart and thoughtful we wouldnt need religion at all.
Plus the whole idea doesn't make sense to argue over because the concept of good and evil and the creation of religion is ALL linked to the sun and the darkness. They all came from the same place and then peoples hate and ignorance and difference of opinion seperated them forever,kinda ironic haha
ugh im ranting...whatever AGE ISN'T IMPORTANT. THE PERSON IS WHAT'S IMPORTANT. They can choose to believe whatever they want at whatever age they want so get over it.
gaia3
**there is no guaruntee that a person will not change beliefs anyway when they are older and more mature, **
I am not looking for any such guarantee. Let them do anything when they are mature.
*** It doesnt matter because age does not determine a persons ability to comprehend and handle the aspects of a religion. I know plenty of kids that display a more open mind than you appear to be exhibiting at the moment.***
Yes it does. Because a 12 or 15 what they know of their religion is almost nothing. With age come more knowledge and more life experience.
Now let me ask you a question. What do you WANT?
I want to discuss truth. I do not have any other bad intentions.
Do you wish for everyone under the age of 25 to not know of religions?
I did not say that. I want people below 25 to study their religion properly before they decide to make a change.
What was your intention with this question? Did you REALLY want our answers
My intention was to make every think and to make people know that kids today are making hasty decisions and adults are supporting it. I do really want peoples opinions so that I can point out mistakes if any.
there is no guaruntee that a person will not change beliefs anyway when they are older and more "mature", just because they make it to around 30, and decide on a religion, does not mean that they wont research more religions and belief systems and change their mind about what makes sense to them. I know plenty of 60 year olds who change religions. It would be a sad worl indeed to pick a religion and not be allowed the freedom in life to be able to change as you grow and learn. To have "kids" be told to (as jimahl said) sit down and shut up until they are 30 is ridiculous.
To clearly answer your question (why doesnt age matter?), It doesnt matter because age does not determine a persons ability to comprehend and handle the aspects of a religion. I know plenty of "kids" that display a more open mind than you appear to be exhibiting at the moment.
Now let me ask you a question. What do you WANT? Do you wish for everyone under the age of 25 to not know of religions? What was your intention with this question? Did you REALLY want our answers ( I ask because you have shot down every answer here) or were you bored and wanted to see what you could start?
Who are you to judge who is spiritually mature or not? I agree children might be quick to be influenced but the way you state your question it sounds to me like you feel that anyone between the ages of 13 and 25 would not be mature enough to have an idea of their own spirituality.
I personaly experienced my most spiritual moments when I was so young I had no idea what spiritual was. Children when they are still untainted by the world can have such a deep inner spirituality that even the great Buddha would be envious. And again there are always the exceptional people who find their spiritual path so much sooner in life then others.
So, no I do not agree, there are so many people that experience spirituality that I do not think there is an age standert. Nor do I think anyone has the right to doubt someone their spiritual growth on age alone. The select few people that only got into spirituality because they were drawn in by their friends are the exception and they might have ruined some images when it comes down to children and spirituality but that in no way, shape or form should be allowed to paint a picture for future generations.
Bless
Wow, you've really shocked me with your arrogence this time. You do realize in stating what you said in the above also prevents people from converting into Christianity until 30. What if they were to die at a young age? They'ld be d@mned would they not? The only religions I see people coverting to do to peer pressure are biblical. If pressure were leading factor in converts for people turning from Christianity to Wicca, Pagan, Athiesm, then there'ld be little to no converts. People covert seeking personal truth and enlightment.
And why should anyone wait until age 30. For some, their life would be have over. What their ken believe should not dictate their belief system, no matter what age. Age does not matter, spatial maturity isn't dictated by age. Some may shock you with their abundant knowledge at those early age, some may shock you with their lack of at older ages(not mentionening ant names). Each individual is different, and spiritual maturity will come differently at different ages for each different individual. I highly agree with Jaz, Jimah, fillofspain, thedude, arach heck, everyone who commented really.
No questioning or judging religion before 25? What, are you trying to incite an inquisition?
I think that many people break away from their religion in their teens and early adulthood because that is the time they start challenging all they have been taught.
For myself, I renounced my religion at age 15. I had no influences in the matter, for all of my friends and family were christian. I caught hell for a while (no pun intended), but eventually I became comfortable enough in my skin to not be bothered by what people thought about my beliefs, or lack thereof.
I was raised a Catholic and I was never really fulfilled by going to church. I just did it because my mother dragged me along. I had no say in the matter when I was younger. As I grew older, and really began to understand catholicism and christianity, I just felt as though I would be living a lie if I kept proclaiming it.
The fact of the matter is that I don't believe in the bible or many christian teachings and never did. I just happened to be 15 years old before I got the nerve to come out with it.
jimahl
You are basically telling our youth to shut-up, believe what you are told, and don't question anything you are taught until you are 30 years old.
Can't you understand English. I said "keep aside questions" and not "don't question".
**Young people usually have a much higher capabilities to learn than older people. Why would you want to impeded that process? **
I did not say that either. I said they should learn their religion thoroughly before questioning. Read properly what I have typed.
Just because they might not choose to follow their parents belief system?
That's what I am saying. They should follow their parents. Such choices must be made when they are grown ups.
*** What about a household with parents of differeing beliefs? ***
The MAN of the house I.e. the HEAD of the family (the father) should decide what his child should follow.
**So my son should not be allowed go to a friends bar mitzvah? **
You don't seem to understand the meaning of the word "involve". Involve is not attending or participating.
I have often thought this. I was very young when I realised my spirituality, to young, and when I became older and realised that there were others who embraced my forms of spirituality and had a name for it, it had not been the age barrier I was worried about.
I would like to believe that there are some people who realise their spirituality earlier then others, not because they are more special then others, but more because it speaks to them more, is of more importance to them. Some of the most religious people I know are no older then 21 and I know a great share of people who take their faith for granted that are much older then that. Sure they go to church or read their bible, but otherwise they treat it like an empty faith. Now I would much rather see the religious world diminish to the select few who feel that they connect with their spirituality in a way beyond book or building instead of it being subject to people who care not for the true meaning of their faith but only about optaining their place in heaven.
Age may have some to do with it because children go through phases, but Im 21 and I am absolutely sure of my faith, and I dont have faith because thats what was taught to me, I have faith because I feel Gods love and I know hes there. You may still think Im too young, but dont you think experience has more to do with it than age? I went to church when I was a kid, as in 5-11 years old or so, because thats all I knew. When I got to my teen years I went through a depressed/rebellious phase where I denied God and looked into other religions, that lasted until less than a yr ago. Since then I have had religious experiences that I never imagined as a child. Like I said Im just 21, but I feel I've been through a lot religiously and have found true faith. So I understand your age dispute because I even went through something and I have friends who are younger than me and had the same experiences, and I do agree some people may not understand true faith til their older, but we cant just decide a certain age where once you...
Eternallymisinformed, this question should be very insulting to people under 25. One does not need to be a certain age to see the truth behind religion. I assume you are over 25, and you don't even understand the religion you actually believe in. Of course you would promote the concept of not judging religion until one has already been indoctrinated. It makes it very convenient for you.
fruitylicious, your veiw of atheists is quite skewed. I know of no atheist who became one because of peer pressure, or because it is 'fashionable'. Most just come to the conculsion that it just doesn't make sense with what we know about the physical world. I know my own de-conversion was based on science and logic, and had very little to do with the questions like 'why would a loving god let people suffer.' A good question, but certainly not a major reason to dis-believe. I also think many get turned off by those obnoxious believers (a small but vocal group) who try to force their belief down others throats.
No true scotsman fallacy. Do you know any 'true' christians, then? How can you tell?
Matthew 7:15-23
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit/Actions you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 "Thus, by their fruit/actions you will recognize them." 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
*** lets say you were staring at a glass of water half filled with water with a spoon in it. outside of the water, the spoons is visible clearly straight, UNTIL it has contact with water do you see the illusion that the spoon is split entirely. im sure we have all seen this illusion. ***
athleta4life, it doesn't take too many times of seeing this illusion to realize it is an illusion, and to completely understand why our eyes are seeing the spoon differently. Even if we didn't know the science behind it, we know that putting something in water cause light to act differently, and distorts an image.
You have provided no examples of illusions that can't be explained easily, and reproduced at any time. How does this in anyway relate to believing in something we don't see. We see the spoon, we see the water, and experience tells us that the water affects the way the spoon appears.
A very poor analgy...
Personally I dont mind "kids" changing their beliefs at all. Maturity does not come with age. Part of growing up is getting out there and doing research and questioning your own beliefs until you find where you really want to be. I dont see how youth exploring is a problem. By doing so they do not become ignorant people who only see one way and one belief, they would grow up to be well rounded individuals who have not only researched but have experienced changes in their beliefs. If most kids felt that they COULD experiment (as in, their parents dont constrict them to a single belief) there would be less (whether a lot less or a little less) conflict today over religion and a little more understanding. ...Maybe you should have waited until the age of 25 to have become a christian, then maybe you would be more open minded. If you did wait until 25, then maybe you should have waited a little longer...
gaia3
its not the kids' religion you want them to research its their parents' religion and the religion they chose for them.
Yes that's right.
**Kids need to research all religions, not just the one shoved down their throat. **
No I do not agree with that.
**I will repeat this again. SPIRITUAL experience is NOT directly attatched to the experience gained from AGE. **
Can you explain to me what you mean by Spiritual Experience.
***Why the hell would I take something written by MEN to scare/guilt their wives into being submissive seriously. You are the classic case of a sexist pig who falls back on..."
"scare/guilt their wives"!!? You have NO idea what the Bible speaks about husbands and wives. Why do you speak about something you have no clue about? Would it not be sensible to get a fair idea of something before blurting out such statements?
From what I read most of you did not get what I was talking about. Most of you just seem to only be interested in blurting out your hatred.
Interestingly, you seem to be the only one perceiving 'hatred' here. All I see is civil discourse.
So let me explain. I am not talking Christianity. I am saying if you are in a particular belief (any belief - even atheism) 13 or 15 or 25 is not the age at which you judge your beliefs.
Take a moment and consider how children come to believe these things: they're taught them by authority figures. In some cases, indoctrinated is the correct term. What you're suggesting is that it's okay for children to be convinced or indoctrinated into a position, but not for them to change their mind about it later, when they have the opportunity to consider it on its own merits - which strikes me as absurd.
You are putting words into my mouth. I said they can change their mind but they have to be mature first.
I'm not putting words into your mouth: you also implied that it's okay for them to take whatever position they already have. Kids aren't born believing in anything, you know.
That would not be possible as parents would definitely influence their children. So rather children should stick to their parents belief and when they are mature consider their beliefs if need arises.
Ah, here's your real worry. You want kids to suspend all rational thought about what they've been indoctrinated into believing, until they're old enough that it's an ingrained part of them. Yes, this time I am putting words into your mouth - but I think it's an accurate assessment.
EternallifeThat would not be possible as parents would definitely influence their children. So rather children should stick to their parents belief and when they are mature consider their beliefs if need arises.
Arachnid Ah, here's your real worry. You want kids to suspend all rational thought about what they've been indoctrinated into believing, until they're old enough that it's an ingrained part of them. Yes, this time I am putting words into your mouth - but I think it's an accurate assessment.
Correct Arachnid! Until they cant separate reality from fantasy or Superstition and the fear of HELL is engraved!
"Fear is a motive for establishing a god, and man has worshipped at one time or another, most of the living things he fears …."
eternallife: You've asserted, in essence, that children should suspend critical reasoning until some arbitrary age, but you haven't actually provided an argument for why. So: why is questioning and investigation a bad thing in young people?
I have read some theories where people believe that it is because children are still so fresh in this world they still have some connection with the world before and after this life, that because of this connection they see things differently then we do.
A simpler explanation is that they haven't yet reached the age of reason, and so are less capable of applying critical thinking skills to what they observe - so they're more likely to ascribe supernatural explanations to things they don't recognise.
From what I read most of you did not get what I was talking about. Most of you just seem to only be interested in blurting out your hatred.
So let me explain. I am not talking Christianity. I am saying if you are in a particular belief (any belief - even atheism) 13 or 15 or 25 is not the age at which you judge your beliefs. These are (I would say it again) KIDS. I wold suggest to people of that age that if you are having questions keep it in your mind. Learn keep those questions aside for the time being and live till you are at least 30 and then deal with those questions. That is when you are mature.
janeofthe_jungle
We do teach kids to fear those things we must fear. But note that we do not provide them actual evidences but only the effects. You don't burn your finger or the child's finger to show that fire is dangerous. You show the after effects ie. a person or the picture of a person who has sustained burns.
I suggest you read my posts again carefully.
Now concerning who is the head of the family. God has appointed all things and He has appointed that the man I.e the husband is the head of the family. But if you do not believe in God then there is no point telling you this.
If someone gave up being a Christian... They were NEVER really a true Christian in the first place. I'd be willing to bet that it was just a lable for them and that they were just "acting" like a Christian because of they're parents. And since they were never really a "real" Christian. They never experienced worshiping an all powerful/mind blowing GOD because they were to busy worshiping themselves.. -.-
They then left Christianty as soon as they're parents or they're peers gave them the chance because they had no idea what they were really missing out on.
I'm Christian- orthodox to be specific. Im quite religious and so are my parents. I think that if you teach kids about their religion they will gain a much better understanding. My parents taught me about christianity and explained it to me. It is not that they do not possess enough knoweledge (people under 25), rather that they are ignorant of their religion. But of course young children would not understand fully something explained to them about religious beliefs.I'm saying more like teens, that can develop a better view.
~~But knowledge matters. At that age you know very little about anything. By the way what do you mean by spiritual maturity?~~
I disagree Do to my poetry and level of intellect people have mistook me for being in my mid 30's-40's for years. You've conversed with me. Though I admit I've times when I become hot headed ad fly off the handle, as do us all, how old do you think I am really? you might be shocked at my age, as well as how early I developed intellectually. Tell me, how old do you think I am really?
Jimahl said it all.
I just want to add, that most people don't become atheist because of peer pressure, most people stay religious (knowing that this isn't the right choice for them) because of peer pressure. After all it's Christians who judge the most and who would disown their children (in some cases) for not following the same religion.
Most of my friends don't even know my religious viewpoints (almost all of them being Christian) for the sole reason that they WILL judge me and so will my family.
**ALL KIDS MUST LEARN THEIR RELIGION FIRST AND CONSIDER CHANGE ONLY WHEN THEY ARE MATURED **
You keep claiming that, but you still haven't explained why you think that should be the case. What harm comes from questioning one's beliefs and assessing them critically?
Yes if you are in that age group (under 25).
Wait, it's gone down to age 25 now? Where exactly do you pull these figures from? What makes you qualified to assess someone's maturity and ability to reason for themselves?
I think that with age comes a level of maturity and knowledge. Not to say that one cant be wise beyond their years, but there are some things that you can only gain from experience. Sometimes without experience we are ignorant to so much of what we think we know, because we havent gone through the journey yet. I believe its important to keep an open mind beyond our logic, reason, or ignorance, because no one has all the answers. In the end Truth supercedes knowledge.
Oh really Athletalife and for what reason do you think people’s eyes are being tested for drivers licenses, pilots etc. Because they, according to you cant rely on what they see? What havoc wouldn’t it have been if a blind person obtained a licence? Or what would You think of a blind Brain surgeon operating on your brain? Come on get real, if your Eye sight is 100% and you are not delusional, what you SEE, is what IS there. No magic in life!
Eternallife But problem is we find such behavior and such questions comming from people who are 13, 15 or 20 years of age.
Eternallife would it then be fair to say that children should rather be raised WITHOUT ANY religion, so they then could make their OWN decisions and use common sense as to whether religion makes sense or not, when they are over 20? ;-) That way everyone can make sure they are not indoctrinated from birth ;-)
I mean spirituality in any form. Seen both in the religious form as in the personal form. The reports of children seeing ghosts, 'feeling' energies, dreams, the reports pile up.
I have read some theories where people believe that it is because children are still so fresh in this world they still have some connection with the world before and after this life, that because of this connection they see things differently then we do.
*** only what they see they believe... ***
And why is this a problem? Why should we believe things we can't see? Just because our ancestors told us too?
There is a difference between knowing and believing. I don't believe anything unless I see, hear, feel some kind if evidence. I know things because I have seen them myself. Not knowing something yet still believing it is just wishful thinking.
arachnid
You want kids to suspend all rational thought about what they've been indoctrinated into believing, until they're old enough that it's an ingrained part of them.
That is not what I said. I said "Kids should learn to keep their questions aside for the time being.." not completely stop thinking and just follow. See you don't seem to be able to understand what I am typing.
Wow. Eternallystupid, you have just made a fool of yourself. Do you really not see how stupid, ignrant and prejudiced you are being? By your profile, you seem to struggle to recognise whether you are a girl or a boy. I wonder how old you are... Because I am 14 and I can guarantee I am a hell of a lot more mature than you.
I can believe whatever the hell I want thanks.
Because it is not goof for kids to take decisions with half baked knowledge.
Why not? Making mistakes is part of life - it's how we learn. You also haven't explained just why you have to be 30 years old before you can understand a religion (apparrently), yet every other major life decision can be made at age 18 or earlier.
Matthew 7:15-23
I wasn't asking for scripture. I was asking if you, personally, know any "true" christians. If any christian who leaves the religion was never a "true" christian, then it would appear there's no way to actually tell if someone is a "true" christian or not. Which makes the whole distinction pretty pointless.
eternallymisinformed, you have completely lost all credibility in this discussion. You should really give it up before you make youself look even more foolish than you already do. On second thought, I don't think you could look more foolish than you already do. But the depth of your ignorance does keep managing to surprise me...
I guess lots of people are metaphysical empiricists...only what they see they believe...
..but if you think about it...the 5 senses are unreliable... and through these tools of senses is the only way our brain aqcuires data or information of the world we live in...
so one can question, why do people believe what they see...
hit that age then you can decide your beliefs. my point is Im younger than your age idea and I know my beliefs, I know people my age who were like me, likewise I know people my age and older who were brought up religious and stayed that way. I just think experience and environment have more to do with faith than age.
janeofthe_jungle
Fear is a motive for establishing a god, and man has worshipped at one time or another, most of the living things he fears ….
What needs to be feared has to be feared. Would you not teach your child to fear fire or electricity? Do they not learn to handle them when they grow up?
yellowcarnations
I just think experience and environment have more to do with faith than age.
True but how do think you could have experience without age? Kids have not live long enough to claim they have experiences. They have seen only a very small part of life.
arachnid
You keep claiming that, but you still haven't explained why you think that should be the case. What harm comes from questioning one's beliefs and assessing them critically?
Because it is not goof for kids to take decisions with half baked knowledge.
Thanks all, for the positive and constructive criticisms / feedbacks. This is what all religious and political discussions online should. Discussions in an open adult manner without getting into name calling and going off course…. Cheers mates. :)
If below the age of 25, people are not mature enough to think about religion and make religious decisions, then it is immoral to attempt to involve people younger than that in religious activity, since they are not capable of making a decision.
I see, well on the profile it said the gender was unknown so I assumed the person was gender confused or never researched the differences between male and female just like (she) never researched anything else outside her own little world.
If someone gave up being a Christian... They were NEVER really a true Christian in the first place.
"No true scotsman" fallacy. Do you know any 'true' christians, then? How can you tell?
Oh my God, eternallife, you have shown sexism, racism and ignorance the whole way through this question. I'm not even going to bother trying to show you how ignorant you are.
Gaia, eternallymisinformed is a woman. And she never fails to amaze me with her inaneness. The man-is-the-head -of-the-household comment was really over the top.
you prove to the world a magic man whom controls everything is up in the sky watching us, and sure, we'll all be christians.
janeofthejungle
I agree, but you could you not be proving something to an illusion? can you ever know?
lex icon you totally got it, he does love the sound of his own voice!
