Why do People like Obama so much?

“Obama … also trying to put another bill for babies that survive abortions to get killed as soon as there born!”

As hard as it is to argue with someone who is so obviously confused and misled, here goes. sigh…

1. Obama IS NOT proposing anything to kill babies if they live through an abortion. Several years ago there was a law up for vote in Illinois, the Born Alive Infants Protection Act, which sought to mandate safeguards regarding this. Obama and several others voted against it because it had no provision for protection of the doctors, nurses and hospitals. When that clause was added, he voted FOR it. Please, before you try to make an argument, get your facts straight.

2. Actually, BOTH candidates support a woman’s right to choose. Just in different situations. The position that McCain is anti-abortion is incorrect. McCain does support abortion in cases where there is rape, incest or the mother’s life is at risk. Both candidates support a woman’s right to choose. If a woman is pregnant due to rape, she can choose to have an abortion. Both McCain and Obama support her right to choose. If a woman is pregnant due to rape by her father or brother, she can choose to have an abortion. Both McCain and Obama support her right to choose. If a woman is pregnant and the pregnancy is placing her life at risk, she can choose to have an abortion. Both McCain and Obama support her right to choose.

McCain supports a woman’s right to choose under certain circumstances. Obama supports a woman’s right to choose. Again..BOTH candidates support a woman’s right to choose, just for different reasons.

3. How dare you compare Obama to Hitler. That is insulting on so many levels, I don’t know where to start. I AM JEWISH AND I AM INSULTED.

You are an obviously brain washed young woman who should quit watching FOX News, quit listening to others on this site who are just as confused as you, and quit listening to whatever uneducated idiot is feeding you these lies.

Examine an issue, research your facts and THEN make an argument. If not, you will come off just as you did…stupid.

“If he’s with abortion he won’t have my vote!” Thank god you are too young to vote. I don’t mind a conservative republican, but I can’t tolerate an idiot.

seao2florida: lex_icon’s point, I believe, is that people who are “pro-life” obsess over the life of an embryo that is incapable of feeling or thinking, but (usually) have no problem with, for example, killing animals for meat, or using bugspray. What is it that makes the life of an unconscious embryo more important than that of a fully conscious animal that is capable of feeling pain? Note that I’m not saying that you shouldn’t eat meat or kill animals: I’m saying that it’s inconsistent to claim that “all life is sacred, regardless of its capability to think or feel” and at the same time chow down on a steak.

“If your mother had aborted we wouldn’t be having this trading of emails. So you were human life from the time the sperm wriggled into the egg wall.”

And if you parents hadn’t had sex, you wouldn’t be around either. Clearly anyone who doesn’t have sex with everyone at every opportunity is a murderer! Think of all the lives that don’t exist because they selfishly refrain from getting pregnant at every possible opportunity!

Oh, and if your mother hadn’t been born, you wouldn’t exist either. So you were human life from the time your mother was conceived. And her mother… and her mother. See how the conclusion doesn’t follow the premise?

“oh pls, he cant even say the pledge, and he wont put his hand over his heart, he wont even have anything to do with the flag”

Every single thing in that sentence has been debunked.

niocil,

Thank you for the off handed apology. The only point I’ll make to your statements. This is not a 16 year old kid, who can be turned around from his life of crime or just ONE mistake. We are speaking about the President of the United States of America. He or she MUST have good judgment and capable of making as good a decision as possible based on the facts at hand. This is not again the 16 year old who makes a bad life decision that will make for a lesson of hard knocks. This is the leader of the most powerful nation in the free world. And Barak has shown he does not possess good judgment. And this is not a position that I want a novice doing on-the-job-training. I’m a mixed breed like most people in America, and this is a very diverse nation. I do not want someone who listens to bigotry lead this vast diversity, nor do I want a President who listens to Anti-American sentiment for 20 years. Let him go back and teach at Harvard where he can only damage a few minds instead of leading this entire nation down a path that we don’t want to go. No neither candidate is a great one. But as time has worn on, Barak has made the choice much simpler.

Attention span? You think that’s what my skimming through your posts is about? If there was a scrap of actual information in there as opposed to your touchy-feely BS, maybe I’d bother to give it the time of day.

My question was simple- What makes human life more important than any other? Your answer of ‘because it’s human’ leads me to these possible conclusions:

1. You can’t think of any reason, so you don’t answer properly
2. You know your reasons can be contradicted, so you don’t bother answering.
3. You’re just not that bright

Unfortunately for you, my parents planned for me, so I was a wanted child. Yes, if my beloved mother had aborted me, I wouldn’t be here, state the obvious. I have to ask what the relevance is in saying that in this debate? Am I supposed to be cut up about that? Is it supposed to make me scream “Oh my! I’ve changed my mind, because if I were aborted I wouldn’t be here, and the world would miss out on having me here!” I’ve accepted that death is a part of life. I know the world will move on after I die, just the same as if I were never in it at all. Nice try, no cigar. You’re stuck with me.

Also, you seem to have the attitude that all pro-choice women, given the choice of termination, are chomping at the bit to get it done. Termination is never ideal, but I can understand the reasoning as to why women get them. I know women who have had them, and while they have their reasons, and they don’t necessarily regret it, they think about it daily. It’s not like they went into it lightly. I doubt you will ever find anyone who is enthusiastic about getting a termination.

And if we’re really going to stick with the thread topic here, it’s about why people like Obama when he (supposedly) supports the slaughter of babies surviving abortion.

Teens taking an interest in politics is one thing- teens who only bother to get half the story are going to get holes poked in them by people who have a better understanding. I’ve been a teen, I’ve been in a position where I’ve only known half the story, and I’ve been chewed out about it. The difference is, I learned to do my research before mouthing off and showing how little I know. It’s nothing personal, it’s actually to do with development of cognative thought in relation to hormones at this age.

Lady, and gentleman.

Human life cannot be compared to that of a tapeworm. The statement goes beyond absurdity. And you suggest that you shouldn’t take medication to rid yourself of a tapeworm, but it’s fine to rid yourself of a fetus?

And yes that fetus is worth more than another full grown animal. And your argument that a fetus is not viable. Well a full term baby is not viable without being cared for a number of years. Does that make it ok to not feed it or kill it because it can’t care for itself? You choose your arguments for convenience and justification not factually.

Obviously lex you don’t even read my postings, you just repost. Yes dear, I was a hunter at one time. I killed animals, gutted, skinned, cooked them and ate them. And yes I now buy my meat and vegetables in the supermarket.

But if you read nothing else of my posting read this. Go out and observe nature. Sharks, lions, cheetahs and snakes don’t have a job. They don’t have supermarkets, they kill other animals that they might live That is called life on this planet Earth.

We are no different than the rest of the animals on this planet. We must eat. And to do so we must eat something that at one point was alive. And in one of your statements, every living thing has a right to live. Well what the hell would we be able to eat. I don’t eat anything that was not living at some point. I can’t eat corn, because I’m killing a living thing?

And to argue that every living thing has a right to live and then be so willing to terminate a human life for convenience? I don’t know how it is in your life, but I do know there are many couples who can’t have kids and have a hell of a time adopting. Give that child an opportunity to be raised by a family that can’t have children. I have always obtained my pets the same way, I adopt them from the humane society. Have at least the same respect for human life that you do for an animal.

Enough said.

“Here goes “all the mammals in the world” again. Let’’s stick to the topic of abortion and comparing our arrogant in thinking human life is more important than any other, Yes I do think any form of human life is more valuable than an animals.”

The point of the ‘all mammals’ argument is that there must be some limit: You surely don’t think a human life is more valuable than every other mammal combined? Is it worth 100 other animals? 10,000? A hundred million? How many? Regardless of what the number is, you presumably believe there’s some equivalence - human life isn’t infinitely more valuable than anything else. And if you think it is, on what basis?

Likewise, there must be some correspondance for embryos. Is a single celled embryo as valuable as a human being? 2 humans? 10? How many pregnancies would you terminate to save someone’s life? Or conversely, how many people would you kill to save an embryo?

“What facinates me is how you can be so Pro-life in saving even a tapeworm and so callous about killing an embryo. You said you thought I was a hypocrite if I killed anything and claimed ot be pro-life.”

For the umpteenth time, neither of us has claimed what you think we’re claiming: It was used as an argument to point out how ridiculous claiming “all life is sacred” is. If you don’t think it is, then you need to justify what makes one life more important than another.

“Human life cannot be compared to that of a tapeworm.”

Why not? Obviously it’s far more valuable, but why is it not possible to make a comparison? Are you saying that any form of human life is valuable than any amount of animal life? That a single celled embryo is more valuable than every other mammal on earth, for example?

“The statement goes beyond absurdity. And you suggest that you shouldn’t take medication to rid yourself of a tapeworm, but it’s fine to rid yourself of a fetus?”

I never suggested any such thing. I pointed out that that was what the absurdity of insisting that something is valuable simply because it is alive leads to. Since then, you’ve clarified that you only care about human life - which leads me to the question of how much. What comparative value do you place on the life of a foetus versus a full-grown self-aware human? And how does that compare to the value you place on, say, a higher ape?

Would you allow a foetus to be terminated if it saved a human being? Two foetuses? How many? Insisting that there’s no comparison between the life of a foetus and anything else is absurd.

“And to argue that every living thing has a right to live and then be so willing to terminate a human life for convenience? I don’t know how it is in your life, but I do “

Once again, you’re arguing against your own POV. As I said in my last couple of posts, none of us is seriously proposing that all life is equally sacred: We’re merely pointing out that either you must think so (to rate a single celled embryo so highly), or you must have some ‘exchange rate’ between foetus and human, and between human and other animals. Or that you would gladly wipe out every other animal on the planet to save a single embryo.

seao2florida:

You accuse me of not having researched matters of child development. Ha. Ha ha. Ha ha ha. As part of my degree as a primary teacher, I had to study the development of the fertilization of an egg to the point it becomes a school age child, looking in depth at the development inside the uterus. People go through a pregnancy and go “wow, at this stage, it’s brain starts firing neurons!” and start thinking of it as a baby. It’s purely a mentality. The reality is, in the early stages of pregnancy, an embryo is little more than a human shaped parasite. It is not viable without a direct link to it’s human incubator. Same as a tapeworm. And your argument of “it wiggles”… parasites wiggle too. That is a prime example of playing on feelings rather than getting the scientific facts.

Ever done a home-kill on the meat that sits on your table? I have. Even though I killed it in a fashion that I was told was swift, and not terribly painful, I bet it felt pain. I’m guessing you get your meat from a supermarket shelf, so you can ignore the image of an animal MURDERED for the sole purpose of you eating it. If you support the kill of any living thing and claim you’re ‘pro-life’, I personally think you’re a hypocrite.

Furthermore, I suggest you read a book called ‘Freakonomics’. There’s a section in there which shows clear links between legalising terminations of foetuses and the reduction in crime in society. I doubt that, given the choice, a child would like to be born into a life of extreme hardship, pain and poverty, with one or both parents wishing they could have terminated them. Imagine these same children (who would otherwise have been terminated) growing up in lies of crime, and, say, knocking over a petrol station one night, and killing a bunch of civilians? Would you really deny a parent the choice to terminate if this was the inevitable life the foetus would have? Even if it means saving the lives of a handful of others?

I believe that human life is worth more than other animals because we’re sentient. We’re capable of conscious thought, of empathising with others, of logical deduction, and so forth.

And thank you for finally answering the point. I agree wholeheartedly with you on it. I further add to those, my belief that human life was created.

Forgetting the last, and only considering the reasons that we both agree upon, man is a conscious creature, self aware and at this point in time is at the “top of the food chain”. Human life is worth more on this planet at this time than any other. We have a society and have enacted laws to add order to our lives and set the rules for what is tolerable within that society. One of those is the crime of murder, because our lives are worth more than other creatures on this planet. And I happen to believe that human life begins at the time the woman has a viable embryo - it is certainly life, and it just so happens it is human life. Your boundry of when life is human and when it is only a “parasite” to use Lex’s words, is a fuzzy undefined one, sometime in the third trimester.

The lungs are one of the last developed portions of the body. Some babies are born and have trouble with underdeveloped lungs and must be assisted. they are not viable without a lot of care. Other babies have been born early in the trimester and after a lot of care have lived and flourished.

And I will go back to the point that if human life is worth more than other creatures, and worth mankind saving above others, at what point does it become a life you are willing to save. Any one of us as a zygote if terminated would have never been. Yet carried to full term as you and I both apparently were, we are human life. When do you decide to save it and when is it of no consequence as a cockroach? And to any Buddhist who might read this forgive my chain of thought.

Well we have two totally opposed views on the value of human life. I do believe that we were created. And if you equate the life of a human as equal to that of all other creatures, we are at a stalemate. Let me ask you this if you had only one opportunity to save a human or a dolphin. Your actions can only save one and not the other, which would you choose? Now don’t forget dolphins are some of the most developed creatures on our planet.

And you are absolutely correct on my miswording. I was being cute by using the cell and egg statement. I and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists believe life begins with pregnancy, and that does not occur until the fertilized egg attaches to the uterus. It is when a woman’s body begins to nurture the egg. Thank you for bringing me to task. And no I don’t believe the fertilized eggs are little souls who died. And I don’t believe it is murder when the 4,999,999 other sperm die, any more than I concern myself by cutting my hair. But if you are so concerned with life, consider your own statement. Should we attempt to filter those eggs when a woman discharges them? They have a right to live as well, right? If you bite your lip, you are killing viable cells, and hair cells that lay at your barbers feet all contain living cells. Shall we not ever cut our hair? Do you cautiously walk around making sure you are not killing any small bugs on the street. If we should consider how important all life is we should be concerned with these things. For the same reason I do not, I am not concerned with eating plants, vegetables and even, yes, meat. I do not equate those living things with any human’s life. And I believe those things are here for our use. Use. Not abuse. I do not condone killing for no reason. I was a hunter in my younger years and even ate that which I killed, but I came to a point I could no longer do that many years ago. We grow animals and plants for our consumption, should we not? Should we all starve because every thing thing has a right to live? Your arguments and extrapolation of mine do not hold.

Please go observe nature. Herbivores spend much of their day grazing. The big meat eaters eat the grazers. Snakes eat rodents, bats eat mosquitoes and on and on. Should we kill the carnivores, or put them in jail for “wasting” a living thing? It is how life is sustained on this planet. It is life in reality. And for the same reason, I eat vegetables and meats.

You believe the fetus is not a living being. I do. And life begins at conception. It took over 20 years and lot of study and consideration to come to that conclusion, but it is now a strong belief based on that careful consideration. I do definitely believe in sterilization and preventative measures. But once life begins, it is life - human life in the instance of a baby.

“”What is it that makes the life of an unconscious embryo more important than that of a fully conscious animal that is capable of feeling pain?” Re-read your statement there. That one is not even worth the time to debate if you really believe that.”

No, really. Let’s start from first principles here: What makes humans automatically more important than other animals (Hint: I believe we are, but not because of any intrinsic magic ‘soul’), and at what point do we consider something an independent human being? Why should we treat a small collection of cells with the same level of respect as a full grown human, or even a sophisticated animal?

“Your argument does not even come close and the last borders on absurd. “

That is EXACTLY MY POINT. Your original statement was “If your mother had aborted we wouldn’t be having this trading of emails. So you were human life from the time the sperm wriggled into the egg wall.”, but your premise fails to prove your conclusion. Just because you wouldn’t be around if some particular thing happened doesn’t have anything to do with when one should consider a developing being to be an independent human with all the rights and responsibilities that entails.

I tried to demonstrate this through absurdity: Replace your “If you were aborted” with “If your parents never had sex in the first place” and the argument makes about as much sense as your original one.

“When life does occur, - when the egg wriggles into the cell wall, then and only then do we discuss whether it is murder or not.”

Sorry, but you don’t get to set that. We don’t call it murder when you cut your hair or bite your lip, we don’t call it murder when it’s anything other than a human. Clearly there is a dividing line between what makes life as important as a full-grown human being, and there’s no reason to assume that happens the moment a cell is fertilized.

Hell, half of all fertilized embryos fail to implant. Are you going to cry ‘murder’ on those, too? Are you going to mourn them as you would a child dying, since you seem to value them equally?

arachnid

“What is it that makes the life of an unconscious embryo more important than that of a fully conscious animal that is capable of feeling pain?” Re-read your statement there. That one is not even worth the time to debate if you really believe that.

“And if you parents hadn’t had sex, you wouldn’t be around either. Clearly anyone who doesn’t have sex with everyone at every opportunity is a murderer! Think of all the lives that don’t exist because they selfishly refrain from getting pregnant at every possible opportunity!

Oh, and if your mother hadn’t been born, you wouldn’t exist either. So you were human life from the time your mother was conceived. And her mother… and her mother. See how the conclusion doesn’t follow the premise?”

Your argument does not even come close and the last borders on absurd. There is no life, if no one has sex, and no one is murdering anything. That answers both paragraphs. When life does occur, - when the egg wriggles into the cell wall, then and only then do we discuss whether it is murder or not. And the argument that a child is not viable until late in the 3rd trimester without support etc. is not valid either. A full term baby, without support for many years will not survive either, so with your arguments it’s ok to not feed a baby, and you are not responsible for its death? When you terminate a fetus you are killing a human being. And please when you compare human life to that of a mosquito… And by the way the part about Obama and the pledge is not mine. I do not know if he did this or not. I’ve seen the photo that brought this on, but don’t know if it was real or altered.

lex_icon,

You know as well as I do that Pro-Life as it is used in the abortion issue refers to killing of the fetus. And I will re-iterate what choice is the fetus given in the process of pro-choice?

I find it very difficult to believe anyone with the intelligence you appear to have would wail on about the killing of a bug, when you so readily condone the killing of a human baby. And dearest they are more than a ball of cells prior to 3rd trimester. If you wish to support a topic and debate it, please research it. If your mother had aborted we wouldn’t be having this trading of emails. So you were human life from the time the sperm wriggled into the egg wall.

And you know I also take exception to your attack on the young lady who said Obama wouldn’t get her vote. Yes she is underage and can’t vote. But your attack on her is despicable. For decades we have tried to get young men and women to watch and understand our political process. This election has done more for that than any in the past. I took my son to the voting polls with me and got him interested in watching the debates at a young age. It has given him a patriotic outlook and a better understanding of the political process. Don’t put kids down when they are at least taking an interest in this process.

honostly, I dont like any of them, however im voting for mccain so obama will have one less vote, as I have said on another question, if they dont want it, give it up for ADOPTION not KILLING it…it isn its fault that you did something stupid, and dont start on rape, most girls that get raped, is their own fault, b/c they flaunt everything out in front of the guy, have sex then get pregnant then gets mad b/c she is so she starts yelling rape, there are a very few that actually gets raped. but like I said, if they did then give it up for an adoption instead of killing the innocent child. and anyone who says abortion isn murder doesn know anything. you kill a person, its called murder, a baby is a person, and it is alive inside of the woman, why do youthink the woman tries her best to stay healthy? its b/c if she is healthy her baby will be, so therefore it will stay alive. and obama is the way to go, oh pls, he cant even say the pledge, and he wont put his hand over his heart, he wont even have anything to do with the flag, and he is the way to go…really??? how can we have a president that cant salute his country? and like seao2florida said, his wife was ashamed of this country, then her hubby gets into it, then its ok??

sea02florida” Let’s dissect the term ‘pro life’ shall we?

pro= in favor of a proposition, opinion, etc. life= the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally.

So, pro-life means “in favour of life”. That means any life. It doesn’t clarify the life on;y being that of humans. If that were the case, the term would be ‘pro- human life’. And as for the term ‘pro-choice’, what choice do bugs have if you wail after them with a can of bug spray? I doubt they’re wanting to die. I bet they scream too. But as humans, we’re so arrogant in thinking human life is more important than any other, we kill bugs casually, without thought. Because they don’t matter.

As a foetus is not viable outside the uterus until at least the start of the third trimester (even then it needs loads of steriods, machines and an incubator to keep it alive), it’s not really technically killing it when it’s merely more than a ball of cells. Just because it takes a semi-human form, does not make it a person.

I found what the original asker seems to be talking about. It’s not a bill that he’s trying to promote - it’s an issue regarding a bill he voted on in the past (not one he put forward). It’s been misconstrued and used in a smear campaign against him. Here’s the lowdown: http://www2.islandpacket.com/blogs/post/34706

From that article:

• At the time Barack voted against a bill containing language designed to protect infants who were “born alive,” such protection was ALREADY on the books as Illinois state law.
• The accusations against Barack are so reckless that NOT EVEN THE REPUBLICAN state senator who sponsored the bill will support them. In fact, he freely admits that “NONE of those who voted against SB-1082 favored infanticide.”
• The bill was opposed by many legislators and groups like the Illinois Medical Society because of the unintended impact it would have had on other laws and legal precedents in Illinois.
• Barack is on the record saying that he would have supported a similar bill that came up in Congress – but that didn’t pose a threat to a woman’s right to choose the way the Illinois bill did.

“Well we have two totally opposed views on the value of human life. I do believe that we were created. And if you equate the life of a human as equal to that of all other creatures, we are at a stalemate.”

I never said that. I merely said that there’s nothing intrinsic about a human cell - whether it’s a single celled embryo or anything else - that makes it intrinsically more valuable than, say, a fully grown animal. You seem to be asserting that it’s impossible to even compare them, though, which is patently ridiculous.

“Let me ask you this if you had only one opportunity to save a human or a dolphin. Your actions can only save one and not the other, which would you choose? Now don’t forget dolphins are some of the most developed creatures on our planet.”

I would choose the human, of course. If you had to choose between saving a single human and every other mammal on earth, which would you pick?

“ I and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists believe life begins with pregnancy, and that does not occur until the fertilized egg attaches to the uterus. It is when a woman’s body begins to nurture the egg.”

Nobody here has ever argued with when ‘life begins’. The question is not when it begins, but when it deserves the same level of rights as a full-grown, sentient human being.

“But if you are so concerned with life, consider your own statement. Should we attempt to filter those eggs when a woman discharges them? They have a right to live as well, right? If you bite your lip, you are killing viable cells, and hair cells that lay at your barbers feet all contain living cells. “

You’re doing a very good job of pointing out the ridiculousness of your own argument. I never claimed that all cells deserve the same respect as a human being: I was asking you if that’s what you think - and if not, what makes a single-celled embryo so much more special? Potential alone does not equate to actuality.

Incidentally, when I get my hair cut, I’m not killing any cells: Hair is not living material, only the root of the har is alive.

“You believe the fetus is not a living being. I do”

Now you’re putting words in my mouth again. I never said it’s not living - clearly it is, in the sense that it has the physical processes of life. I said it doesn’t deserve the same rights as a full-grown human being. It may be alive, but it’s not (yet) a person.

“I and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists believe life begins with pregnancy, and that does not occur until the fertilized egg attaches to the uterus.”

“life begins at conception”

Which is it? Conception, or implantation?

It really fascinates me that people lock into one issue and vote, or like a candidate solely for that reason. I don’t care for either of these men as President of the United States. However, one of them will be. Obama has a long time association with Bill Ayers the former leader of the Weathermen Underground. A terrorist organization of the 1970s who advocated changing our way of government to something left of Socialism. And to accomplish this he and his thugs set bombs throughout this country killing innocent American men, women and children. Obama kicked off his political career at Ayers home in Illinois. He worked with him on many ACORN projects in Chicago. And he downplays this association by saying he was only 8 years old when Ayers and his murdering associates were out “doing their thing”. It’s ok to associate with Ted Bundy, I was just a kid when he was murdering and torturing. ACORN? They now have the distinction of having committed the worst voter fraud in the history of the U.S. - for Obama. And Senator Obama went to church for 20 years and was married by Reverend Wright, who is a racist and hates America. He didn’t disassociate himself from Wright until it became detrimental to his campaign. Thank you but no thank you. Racism has no place in this country, no matter who the target of that hate is, and it certainly has no place in the Office of the President of the United States who will be governing many races. And I don’t want a President who thinks it’s just fine to associate with terrorists. And pwincezz_irenemarie, unless you wish to be Buddist, don’t worry about the advisor’s comparing abortion to killing ants. Pro-life as she well knows it or should, refers to abortion in humans. A more salient argument can be made for “Pro-Choice” - just what choice does the fetus have in the matter? It may be her body, but it is the fetus’ life.

STEPH, McCain does NOT support a woman’s right to choose. He is anti-choice and anti-family planning. The ONLY way he is less extreme than Palin is that he does support abortion in the case of rape and incest. McCain has bragged about receiving a rating of zero from Planned Parenthood. Palin is against all abortions no matter what.

I am for Obama for a number of reasons, first he is pro-choice (he is NOT pro-abortion. No one is. For any reasonable person, choosing to get an abortion is a weighty and life-changing choice.) Next, his TONE during his campaigns has been inspiring hope, And some of our best Presidents have done that. (Lincoln, for example). Whereas McCain seemed to be bent on instilling fear, especially before the mortgage meltdown took center stage. (Which developed during McCain’s long tenure, incidentally) Also, McCain has been a 90% copy of Bush during the last 8 years, and Bush’s administration is ruining America, and America’s ability to lead the world.

OK, I’m stopping now. I promised myself only 2 political responses a day, so I’m off to find another. To everyone, Take care, and Good Luck!!

Niocil, .

It is very open minded of you to be so acceptant of someone who has as little sense to associate with a murderer who killed innocents, because he wanted to change this country. Blowing up children is always an excellent way to overthrow a country don’t you think?. And of course we certainly want someone who tolerated bigotry and Anti-American sentiment for 20 years to be the leader of the free world and our diverse races and religions in this country.. But you can always say you are tolerant and vote for the man anyway, because he certainly has the right to be friends with a bigot and a terrorist. Yea, that’s the key, we’ll be tolerant of him.

And you will be pleased to know that both candidates in this Presidential election are Pro-Choice, so you have nothing to worry about on that front.

Well, Obama is better than Bush. So’s McCain.

yea obama seems so down to earth I like him because he tells it like it is instead of “joe the plumber”

Abortion is murder PERIOD!

WRONG.

Obama actually has great ideas compared to the other idiots that have none.

SeaoFlorida.

Obama NEVER had LONG TIME ASSOCIATIONS WITH BILL AYERS!

Also, I don’t think Obama would go to a church that didn’t like any other race but blacks. I mean, haven’t you noticed? Obama IS only half black.

Shooot, I know my parents aren’t to “proud” about America. My dads been laid off nearly 30 times in the past four years.

Obama atleast gives you hope :]. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

arachnid,

Stick to the topic - abortion. The taking of one fetus. It has nothing to do with any other mammal in the world. It’s one mother terminating her pregnancy. And as to how I value human life see answer above.

Now again the arguments put forth here by you and lex is that it has no more right to live than a tapeworm because it is a parasite and will die without the womb., Just like the tapeworm. Well you won’t answer my argument that a full term baby is not “viable” without being fed, bathed clothed, everything done for it. So under your argument is it ok to kill the baby because it can’t feed itself? After all left on it’s own it won’t survive any more than the embryo. Guys it’s human life, just in a different stage of development.

OBAMA IS THE WAY!!! people need an abortion..someitmes they just cna’t go through with having a child..just because your not pregnant doesn’t mean is you were you would go thorugh with it. peeple have a right to an abortion cause it’s their choice NOT YOURS…yea abortion is killing a baby but most likely the baby would have dies l8er on or suffered a hard life because the mother wasn’t ready to have a kid. an aboriton IS A WOMANS DECIONS to have one or not..if your against it then so b it but it’s not your choice to abolish it..I’d b damwed if they got rid of an abortion

Though it’s a little hard to follow your chain of thought at times with the way you word your documents, I understood you to say that you believe we should not turn our backs on someone who has strayed or done some “stealing”. I have absolutely no issue with trying to rehabilitate a juvenile or anyone else. But please this is an association with a terrorist and a bigoted America hating pastor for over 20, let me repeat that 20 years. That’s half of Obama’s life. It wasn’t until after CNN started questioning him hard and chiding him for not disavowing this man that he finally did.

Pastor Wright is entitled to his opinion! You bet he does. And I signed an oath to defend that right and this country with my life as necessary. But I certainly don’t want a man in the White House who was friends and been “mentored” by him. Palin’s the one who said that he had an association with a terrorist, oh please.

Yes, she did in fact do so. BECAUSE its TRUE.

Senator Obama worked on ACORN projects with Ayers and when Obama began his political career in the Illinois House of Representatives he kicked it off from his friend Bill Ayers’ residence in Chicago.

I don’t know the details nor am I interested but you’re probably blowing it out of proportion!

Well, Let me tell you a little about William Ayers - he was the leader of the Weather Underground associated with the SDS, another seditious group wanting to “change” America by overthrowing the government. To affect this change he and his thugs went around the U.S. blowing up buildings and killing innocent American men, women and children. Their press releases always pointed out how they tried to limit the “collateral damage”. Meanwhile their bombs were filled with nails. Nails are used in explosive devices for one purpose and one purpose only to maim and kill people.

Obama plays this down by saying he was only 8 when Ayers was doing these things. So lets see it’s ok if I am friends with a torturer and rapist, or another murderer, and I can justify that by saying I was only 8 when he was maiming, raping and killing women.

If this man is such a terrorist shouldn’t he be in prison instead of a university professor?

Why, because Ayers was the head of this group, FISA intercepts were used on their headquarters and much actionable intelligence obtained. Because of that spin off criminal cases were developed, most of this group were arrested and many plots to bomb buildings were stopped. However, the only evidence against Ayers were the FISA intercepts which could not be used in court. So though he planned and killed many people, he was able to walk scott free. That’s why he isn’t in jail.

Now I don’t believe I’ve been ambiguous to this point. But is this crystal clear? You seem an intelligent lady, you can go find the references on your own, I know you went to check on Wright, you can find the rest as well.

And let me say “blowing it out of proportion” - no and before you sling things like that around check out the FACTS to see if I am. Is that only because I appear a conservative to you. Therefore, I must be lying or perverting the facts? That’s detestable.

I have on many postings stopped the diatribe about Obama being a terrorist, (he associates with one-no proof otherwise), he is not a Muslim, he did not refuse to say the pledge of allegiance, nor swear into the U.S. Senate on a Koran. No not only do I not “blow things out of proportion”, in Obama’s case there is no need for anyone to do so. His smoke and mirrors health and tax plans are nothing but the typical political speech, “I’ll put a pot in every kitchen and a chicken in every pot” hogwash. His lack of common sense and judgment, and inexperience are more than enough to earn him 2nd place in this race.

I give that “ball of cells” more status because it is a human life. I’ll try to keep my answers shorter for you. Should I value a bacteria as much as a hump back whale, no. Therefore, I value the human embryo more than I do the tapeworm. It is human life. And whether you believe it has a soul or not doesn’t matter. It is a human life. And if you don’t think so, again if your mother aborted, you wouldn’t be here. Human life? Yes you are now and you were upon conception. Short enough to fit your attention span?

Okay first of all, I want you to look up the statistics on how many woman do get a third term abortion. Or how many babies actually survive an abortion. I’m sure you’ll find the number to be rather LOW LOW LOW. And second Obama doesn’t necessarily agree with the 3rd term abortion, he just feels that if something is wrong with the mother or baby, than the MOTHER has the choice on what to do. AND the doctor.

And you shouldn’t pick a candidate based on one of his/her policies.

Thank god you can’t vote.

I think comparing abortion to the Holocaust is a perfectly logical way to start a debate on such a topic. By doing that, you’ve set the tone for a discussion where people will remain calm and maintain respect for each other’s views despite any disagreement. I commend you on avoiding any straw man arguements.

“I think it says a great deal about his policies when terrorists endorses Obama. SDS and the Weather Underground have never been so “active” in American politics until Obama came on the scene.”

If there’s something Obama advocates that you think is “bad”, why not target that, rather than who endorses him? If you can’t point to anything in particular, you don’t have much of an argument. Either the policies in general are bad, or they’re not - who supports or doesn’t support them is irrelevant to their validity.

This may be difficult to believe, but even terrorists do things other than terrorism. They usually have a social agenda, and often the agenda itself isn’t offensive - only the methods they pursue to advance it.

Niocil,

Wow, I see you’ve educated yourself on the issues and the candidates of this election. And when you have to start degrading the person and name calling, you lower the value of your argument.

Winston Churchill once said the best argument against Democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

And on that point I think I’ll say goodnight Irene.

“And what is even more perplexing is that Obama has now been endorsed by 11 other members of the SDS and Weathermen Underground and many of those did serve time in jail for murdering America with their bombs.

And you may be attracted to the “bad boy” image and would like to hang out with Ayers, but I sure as hell don’t want my President to be attached to him.”

Wow. So them endorsing him implies what, exactly? That they like him - but not that he likes them. Perhaps we should get some terrorists to endorse John McCain - and then clearly, you couldn’t vote for him, either.

Seriously, it’s not like a candidate has any control over who decides to endorse him.

please, do you actually think obama is going to do those things, and the stuff he is doing is screwing american up more than it is already… obama is going to turn us to a third world country and I am glad…haha…it will show the ignorance of most people…

because hes black most young african american teens dont care about what he could do they just no hes black and thats all they need 2 no its sad but true

And why do you and Arachnid value human life over others? I’ve asked that, and you’ve never answered. You keep poiting the finger, but you won’t accept the issue.

Why would Arachnid choose a human life over that of a dolphin? If all life is equal, why would this choice be made?

seao2florida: Your constant refusal to get the point - to actually read any of my arguments thoroughly - baffles me. I don’t see much point continuing.

“p”

ONE of his/her policies. She said she didn’t care what else he was for/against. She only cared about his decision on abortion.

Obviously you mis-read my comment.

I could ask the same of Sarah Palin- why do people like her so much? A woman who is so naive, she’s going to push for abstinence only education, which will inevitably lead to more people getting abortions, because they were not educated on the use of contraceptives.

If you are pro-life, I don’t think you should go by that lightly. You should honor all living things- that means no using bug spray, no medicine if you have a tapeworm, no eating meat, and no anti-bacterial hand wash. Those are all examples of life, and a life is a life, it doesn’t matter what form it comes in… right?

Plus, you’re 15- good luck with that whole voting-before-you’re-legally-able thing.

None of us have ever claimed all life as equal. As I have pointed out numerous times when you’ve brought this strawman up, the issue was only ever raised as a “reductio ad absurdum” against your own arguments.

I believe that human life is worth more than other animals because we’re sentient. We’re capable of conscious thought, of empathising with others, of logical deduction, and so forth. As a result, I don’t think there’s anything special about a small cluster of cells that happen to be human.

Why do you think there is?

Seriously, it’s not like a candidate has any control over who decides to endorse him

I think it says a great deal about his policies when terrorists endorses Obama. SDS and the Weather Underground have never been so “active” in American politics until Obama came on the scene.

I know you may not be able to vote in this election and may not care about what happens in America, but I do.

I have a number of issues with Obama, but his long time associations with a terrorist and a bigot do not make Obama a Presidential candidate. I may meet a bigot once, but I don’t stay in his church for 20 years listening to his hatred of anyone not black and his hate for this country. It must have certainly soaked into Mrs. Obama, because she made the statement she never felt proud of America until Obama was nominated for President. Everyone should be “pretty hung up” on these issues, his other potential Presidential problems aside.

Obama worked with Ayers on the ACORN projects in Chicago. He announced his candidacy for the Illinois House of Representatives at Ayers home in Chicago. He plays down this association by saying he was only 8 when Ayer was doing these things.

Still hung up, I see…

their own fault, b/c they flaunt everything out in front of the guy.

So, when a 12 year old girl is walking home from school and is abducted and then raped, you think it’s her fault?

That’s interesting. Maybe next time her mother should tell her to put a bag over her head.

You’re an idiot. Plain and simple.

Obama doesn’t put his hand over his heart… So what. My dad doesn’t put his hand over his heart when the pledge of allegiance is on. Does that make him un-american? Obama wears a flag pin everyday, if you haven’t noticed.

I still think there should be an ignorance policy on answering questions!!!

And here’s a much more detailed and nuanced rebuttal of the whole situation, from none other than Time magazine: http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1849483,00.html?imw=Y

All of which just goes to show that it’s a good idea not to rely on the veracity of attack ads without doing some fact checking yourself. Such ads are designed to be misleading and to press buttons without regard for accuracy.

Well…ok, skip Ayers…Mr. Obama still sat in a church listeining to a bigot for 20 years…and it wasn’t just as “Pastor/congregation attender” either…it was “friend, mentor…” It wasn’t a simple “rubbing of elbows” at a committee meeting…LONG TERM FRIEND! They share the same peep-hole when they look at the world.

p

I agree with you I dont like him at all my brother is in the marines and obamas going to change it so that he wont be able to own a hand gun for self protection outside the services… I think thats stupid!

And by the way Lex, just because the young on this site have different views than you doesn’t mean they are misinformed or listening to smear campaigns. And in either event, it is great that they are at least interested in the process at this stage of their lives.

I think his point is that you shouldn’t pick a candidate based on only one policy. Hypothetically, if the options are someone who disagrees with you on one point but will otherwise usher in a new golden age, or someone who agrees with you on that point but wants to convert the US to a dictatorship, which would you prefer?

Abortion is not murder. Get your facts straight. Government does not have a right to tell a woman (or any person) for that matter what to do with their bodies. If abortion is so bad, why is murder justified in some cases? Hitler was malevolent, Obama is not malevolent just because he believes in the fact that a WOMAN SHOULD HAVE A CHOICE does not mean he’s going to cause another holocaust. That’s personal prejudice. Obviously you have something major against him and here I am sticking up for the person I was not rooting for but ohhh my gosh this kind of stuff shows how America has not changed a bit.

And there is still no explanation as to why you regard human life over any other. Your refusal to define it simply re-iterates my point that your reasoning is based on touchy-feeliness, which is easily debunked by science. Until you stop avoiding answering this simple question, this debate simply cannot go any further. So yeah… ball is in your court.

Have a nice life? Wow. So mature too!

Aaaahhh…Democracy …I’m Australian so I won’t comment.

what is your problem with obama I really dont like people like you and you need to get your facts right before you call obama hilter I mean really hitler

because he’s a democrate and since Bush was republican and now Mcain is I dont think people trust the republican side

plus obama is a intelligent person , who in his speechs shows that he cares and that he will make a change.

mAN rEAL tALK tHAT n*WORD pRESIDENT nOW && I gUESS yA liL vOTE aiNT mATTA mUCH hUH?!?!?

McCain and Palin are not idiots, clearly they’ve made mistakes but that doesn’t mean they are.

the only reason the globalist hand picked Obama is because he is a good talker. Don’t you know that the globalist already bought the two candidates which were running for office( Obama and McCain). Obama is going to be worst than bush. He is a very good talker, they need a person like that who can fool the american people. The globalist knew that everybody would be behind the person who can bring “CHANGE” to the people.

I can go deeper, but I’m going to get the documantary about Obama being another puppet for the globalist. Go to infowars. com. Listen to Alex Jones, he’s the friggin truth. Everything he predicted in the pass is happening now.

MCCAIN AND PALIN are IDIOTS THEY know NOTHING ON what THERE DOING OBAMA ROCKS!

Im not voting

well this is kinda late because he won soo lol

I seriously dont know at all.

most girls that get raped, is their own fault

Wow… just… wow… your ignorance is totally groundbreaking… O_o

Incidentally, according to Godwin’s Law, as soon as you compare someone to Hitler, you instantly lose the debate. Sorry.

This post makes the point I was trying to make a lot more clearly than I ever could have:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/11/03/when-is-a-human-human/

amandaholcomb

CLEARLY you know nothingg about the subject if “MCCAIN AND PALIN are IDIOTS THEY know NOTHING ON what THERE DOING OBAMA ROCKS”

Is all you can answer.

Give me a clear reason why?

seao2florida: you say “take a look at your stance lex”. I have. I’ve had 22 years to form it. I have miscarried a foetus I still believe I would have terminated. Why? Because I look a science, not touchy-feely mindsets. It’s your touchy-feely ramblings which make me skim through your responses. You’re not defining why a parasitic ball of cells has more rights to life than any other organism. Realistically, no one is pro abortion- it’s a pretty drastic choice a woman has to make. However, I’m not going to say a woman shouldn’t have a choice to terminate.

I have nothing against teens taking an interest in politics- I have got a problem with teens who form opinions on politics with little or no research, or even worse, following smear campaigns. Luckily, there are people here (like trisarahtops) who actually know what they’re talking about.

Well Lex, that was all over the place and again responded to nothing. And you know as to teenagers, they are teenagers you might try nurturing them rather than slamming them when they are reaching out. And you need to realize that with strong views, there are going to be people who disagree with you and may have strong views completely opposite of yours. Try not to be so rigid, you’re only human, and there might be middle ground, and there is always a chance you could be totally wrong. But there is always room for someone else’s views. And people will pay far more attention to you when you use cogent arguments rather than personal attacks or degrading comments. And “touchy-feely”? Sweetie, you don’t know me at all.

And arachnid, you are correct. There is no reason to continue. Neither of you wish to debate the issue - abortion, and either you won’t read my posts or just refuse to reply to the arguments. And I can understand, you have taken a tough position.

When you abort a fetus, you are taking a human life. And trying to argue with “all the mammals in the world” doesn’t change that. You repeatedly want me to compare how many animals I’d be willing to “waste” for a human - wanting my value of human life - straying from the issue of abortion. I’ve given my value of human life compared to other animals in a number of posts. There was no reason to respond to it, it strays from the issue of abortion and when a human life becomes a human life. There is no creature on earth worth more - or equal to a human life. I don’t think that can be any more clear. So post whatever you wish so you can have the last word, that seems to be the only thing this was about.

Have a nice life.

I AGREE WITH O girl AT THE TOP…YAH FIRST COMMENT!

It really fascinates me that people lock into one issue and vote

…you seem pretty hung up on the Bill Ayers issue.

captainassassin,

“…you seem pretty hung up on the Bill Ayers issue.” I have a number of issues with Obama, but his long time associations with a terrorist and a bigot do not make Obama a Presidential candidate. I may meet a bigot once, but I don’t stay in his church for 20 years listening to his hatred of anyone not black and his hate for this country. It must have certainly soaked into Mrs. Obama, because she made the statement she never felt proud of America until Obama was nominated for President. Everyone should be “pretty hung up” on these issues, his other potential Presidential problems aside.

Obmama and McCain both support woman’s rights to choose - BUT Palin doesn’t. Who cares though, Obama is all that matters. :) I like him because he seems so down-to-earth.

Because they are uneducated about the truth and woulnt listen to reason.

Though it’s a little hard to follow your chain of thought at times with the way you word your documents, I understood you to say that you believe we should not turn our backs on someone who has strayed or done some “stealing”. I have absolutely no issue with trying to rehabilitate a juvenile or anyone else. But please this is an association with a terrorist and a bigoted America hating pastor for over 20, let me repeat that 20 years. That’s half of Obama’s life. It wasn’t until after CNN started questioning him hard and chiding him for not disavowing this man that he finally did.

Pastor Wright is entitled to his opinion! You bet he does. And I signed an oath to defend that right and this country with my life as necessary. But I certainly don’t want a man in the White House who was friends and been “mentored” by him. Palin’s the one who said that he had an association with a terrorist, oh please.

Yes, she did in fact do so. BECAUSE its TRUE.

Senator Obama worked on ACORN projects with Ayers and when Obama began his political career in the Illinois House of Representatives he kicked it off from his friend Bill Ayers’ residence in Chicago.

I don’t know the details nor am I interested but you’re probably blowing it out of proportion!

Well, Let me tell you a little about William Ayers - he was the leader of the Weather Underground associated with the SDS, another seditious group wanting to “change” America by overthrowing the government. To affect this change he and his thugs went around the U.S. blowing up buildings and killing innocent American men, women and children. Their press releases always pointed out how they tried to limit the “collateral damage”. Meanwhile their bombs were filled with nails. Nails are used in explosive devices for one purpose and one purpose only to maim and kill people.

Obama plays this down by saying he was only 8 when Ayers was doing these things. So lets see it’s ok if I am friends with a torturer and rapist, or another murderer, and I can justify that by saying I was only 8 when he was maiming, raping and killing women.

Now I don’t believe I’ve been ambiguous to this point. But is this crystal clear? You seem an intelligent lady, you can go find the references on your own, I know you went to check on Wright.

Amd let me say “blowing it out of proportion” - no and before you sling things like that around check out the FACTS to see if I am. Is that only because I appear a conservative to you. Therefore, I must be lying or perverting the facts? What ignorance.

I have on many postings stopped the diatribe about Obama being a terrorist, (he associates with one-no proof otherwise), he is not a Muslim, he did not refuse to say the pledge of allegiance, nor swear into the U.S. Senate on a Koran. No not only do I not “blow things out of proportion”, in Obama’s case there is no need for anyone to do so. His smoke and mirrors health and tax plans are nothing but the typical political speech, “I’ll put a pot in every kitchen and a chicken in every pot” hogwash. His lack of common sense and judgment, and inexperience are more than enough to earn him 2nd place in this race.

trisarahtops if you are going to debate, research the facts. Obama worked with Ayers on the ACORN projects in Chicago. He announced his candidacy for the Illinois House of Representatives at Ayers home in Chicago. He plays down this association by saying he was only 8 when Ayer was doing these things. And yes, he and his wife did attend church pastored by one of the racist blacks and hater of America, for 20 years. He did not disassociate himself until it became harmful to his campaign for President. I normally do not get this involved in political debates but Obama’s tax plans will cost us dearly, he stated today, that we can’t wait to see the effect of the bailout program. And frankly he scares me with his socialistic phrases like spread the wealth, it will be good for everybody. I’m sorry this is a capitalist country and hopefully will remain that and democratic. His ideas will be to heavily tax and spend.

niocil,

If you are going to castigate me please read my postings and don’t get me confused with the imbeciles that believe Obama is a Muslim, didn’t say the Pledge of Allegiance and is a terrorist. I didn’t. I have even corrected those on postings who did. There is so much that is negative about Obama no one need attack him with untruths.

And you are sorely mislead if you believe his past associations didn’t matter. In your entire posting there is not one reason to vote for Obama, just white washing the things the voters have to examine what we do know about him. That’s the advantage of being new to politics and living a life that is not under scrutiny as politicians are. We don’t know much about him, but what is known is less than desirable for President.

And what is even more perplexing is that Obama has now been endorsed by 11 other members of the SDS and Weathermen Underground and many of those did serve time in jail for murdering America with their bombs.

And you may be attracted to the “bad boy” image and would like to hang out with Ayers, but I sure as hell don’t want my President to be attached to him.

And please niocil,

I disapprove of rasicm, but this coming from Wright honestly seems like his light opinion to me and directed toward the history and effects it has had. I’m sure he welcomes white people.

Wow niocil, “I’m sure he welcomes white people”. On just what modicum of evidence do you base that?

I‘d like to continue my point, with yet another example. Would you have more respect for me if I euthanized a dog that attacked and killed people, or would you have more respect for me if I worked with the dog so he wouldn’t/couldn’t harm anyone and so he could live his life? I hope this one isn’t too perplexing for you, I know you’re bad with examples. Understand your example, cure the dog. I just don’t have the slightest idea what the hell you’re trying to relate it to. Obama is trying to Cure Ayers? That’s why he “hangs out” with him: Isn’t compatible with any point either of us is making. So maybe its you who have issues with examples.

Once upon a time, America was inhabited by descendants of Asia, prior to the arrival of the Europeans. Progress a few hundred years later to the united states of America, they have the entire nation segregated from them, women are disallowed equal rights. I’m sure you recall this from history class. The united states is highly dysfunctional, has no national health care, and other problems. Currently not in the manner of the constitution, basing policies on theologic principle views. Read that one three times don’t see how one part feeds into the other, nor what it has to do with Obama, McCain, Ayers, Wright - our topics. You missed the Vikings by the way, but I don’t know what that has to do with it either.

I’ll give you another thought to consider since it would be ok for Bill and his thugs to hang out at the White House. Go examine Barack’s tax plan, he intends to start 1 Trillion dollars in new programs. 1 Trillion dollars - if you haven’t ever thought about it, there’s 100 million in 1 Billion. There’s 100 Billion in 1 Trillion in new spending he wishes to implement. His only stated source for this is an increase on the top5% income bracket. Now about 1/2 of that group are small business owners who employee a bunch of the American working Force. This is going to be at a time this nation is in a financial crisis, with possibilities of a depression. Great timeing if he could pull it off. And don’t think he’s going to get it on the ‘savings’ from pulling the troops home. No President, Bush or Obama are going to bring the troops home any time soon - can’t. And he’s going to lower the deficit at the same time?

William Ayers, former terrorist who bombed buildings yet has never been an penitentiary inmate? That is a bit far-fetched. Not to defend what you said about Obama, but honestly sounds like someone I’d might hang out with, would I support him bombing buildings? No. No. No. No. No. I don’t even kill insects.

Well it isn’t far fetched, I lived through those times, Because Ayers was the leader of the group, intelligence was gathered by FISA wires and many plots were foiled. Most his gang were arrested, but because there were FISA intercepts, they could not be used in a criminal trial. There was also some prosecutorial misconduct which lead to charges against him being dismissed.

These rumours being used against him just show the stupidity of who’s against Obama, an another example of blown out of proportions.

No and again read my postings. Nothing is blown out of proportion and just because we do look at the real world, don’t call those who actually look at the facts “stupidly of who’s against Obama”. It is only stupidity when you blindly follow someone down the path without knowing if they have the slightest idea where they are going and how to get there.

I don’t feel eligible to base judgment on people.

Well I do when it comes to choosing the politicians who will be running our country.

And instead of being insulting, tell me why I should vote for Obama and not McCain.

And please if you use the word “change” give me what it is he is going to change and how it is good for this country.

I like obama and im glad he won hes kwl so dont diss but I dont support the abortion thing unless the women got raped or she will harm herself or the baby will have a terible disability if they dont want it for any other reeson they shud giv it 2 a kids home ( which I still dont fink is fare

Lish54 - Shame on you. Shame. Your lack of intelligence, insight, empathy, sympathy, respect, understanding and so on regarding the horrible act of rape is quite shocking. Your comments are among the MOST disgusting I have seen on this site. Rape is NEVER the victim’s fault. NEVER. NEVER. NEVER.

And you shouldn’t pick a candidate based on one of his/her policies

And what would suggest that we pick our candidates by??? Their hair?? Their aura?

p

From lex’s posting,

*sea02florida” Let’s dissect the term ‘pro life’ shall we?

pro= in favor of a proposition, opinion, etc. life= the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally.

So, pro-life means “in favour of life”. That means any life. It doesn’t clarify the life on;y being that of humans. If that were the case, the term would be ‘pro- human life’. And as for the term ‘pro-choice’, what choice do bugs have if you wail after them with a can of bug spray? I doubt they’re wanting to die. I bet they scream too. But as humans, we’re so arrogant in thinking human life is more important than any other, we kill bugs casually, without thought. Because they don’t matter.

As a foetus is not viable outside the uterus until at least the start of the third trimester (even then it needs loads of steriods, machines and an incubator to keep it alive), it’s not really technically killing it when it’s merely more than a ball of cells. Just because it takes a semi-human form, does not make it a person.*

And particularly the statement we’re so arrogant in thinking human life is more important than any other, we kill bugs casually, without thought. Because they don’t matter.

Let me get this perfectly square for you: Rape, to save the mother’s life and a child who has no chance of survival - an anencephalic fetus, termination in the first trimester is acceptable, it is still killing a human.

Yes I do think human life is more important than any other. One of the projects I work on is working with the locals in teaching them how to catch poachers of endangered species and illegal logging in this part of the world. I work to save animals and what rain forest these islands have left. But you know what. If in my journeys one of the endangered Sumatran tigers were about to kill me or my guide. As much as I love the creatures, If all else failed, I’d take the lesser valued life. Because one tiger is not worth one human life. That is my scale of worth on animals to humans.

What brought me to this website was my seeking a humane trap for a cobra that was ranging near our home. He has since been captured and removed into an unpopulated area where he will probably find more food anyway. But you know what, if he were about to bite a child and I could do nothing else, that cobra I spent a lot of time saving and moving to a safe haven, would die.

Are you saying that any form of human life is valuable than any amount of animal life? Here goes “all the mammals in the world” again. Let’’s stick to the topic of abortion and comparing our arrogant in thinking human life is more important than any other, Yes I do think any form of human life is more valuable than an animals. And if that makes me “arrogant” then you can put my picture under the word in Webster’s. My instance to you with the dolphin and the human was to get your idea of what value you placed on human life. No one has ever brought up every mammal in the world but you, and I’m not sure how it helps validate your argument.

And again, people in today’s world have usually not even seen nature outside of a zoo. I have spent much of my life observing it. Yes it is ok to kill animals to eat. I’ve killed, gutted, skinned, cooked them and ate them. Just as the carnivores kill to eat. It is life on this planet. Maybe there is one somewhere in the Universe where nourishment comes in recycled paper cups from a synthesizer. But till we find it, I will continue to allow wheat to be “killed” to make my flour and cows be slaughtered that I may have meat.

And again the argument that a fetus is not viable so it’s ok to take it’s life, is as valid an argument that a full term baby can’t care for itself and has to be fed and bathed and clothed, so it would be just fine to kill it if I didn’t want children. Neither is viable without the womb, or the human care required to raise it. TheIndonesian word sama sama describes those arguments best our best translation is “same”.

The reality is, in the early stages of pregnancy, an embryo is little more than a human shaped parasite. It is not viable without a direct link to it’s human incubator. Same as a tapeworm. And your argument of “it wiggles”… parasites wiggle too. That is a prime example of playing on feelings rather than getting the scientific facts. This is a posting of Lex’s, whom I assume is your significant other, as I seem to be debating both, does in fact compare a human embryo as a parasite just as is the worm. And not that it really matters, but I never said anything about the embryo wriggling. I used the term to describe the sperm swimming up to the egg.

What facinates me is how you can be so Pro-life in saving even a tapeworm and so callous about killing an embryo. You said you thought I was a hypocrite if I killed anything and claimed ot be pro-life. Take a look at your stance Lex

Because McCain is too old.